NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

bhtooefr

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Because those fueling systems aren't applicable to 4-cylinder diesels at the pressures that VW needs to meet emissions, and because those fueling systems are far more expensive.
 

bhtooefr

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How about this, the BMW M57 uses a CP3 family pump, whereas the (4-cylinder, but otherwise identical) M47 in Europe uses a CP4.1 to get 1800 bar, just like VW.

Bosch doesn't have an 1800 bar capable CP3.2, other than the CP3.2+, which isn't suitable for 4-cylinder applications, as I understand

And, as for cost, look up the 1800 bar capable CP4.1 pump for a CBEA or CJAA, it's about $1100 IIRC. Then look up the 1600 bar CP3.2 pump for a Liberty CRD, it's about $2500. Actually, I should look up the previous-gen versus current-gen 3.0 TDI, too, at Euro prices - that's even same manufacturer.
 

FormerOwner

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Fair enough... but what else does BMW use in the CP4 that VW doesn't use? Maybe partnering would be of benefit to VW.
 

bhtooefr

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BMW doesn't sell the 4-cylinder diesels here, though, and the CP4s in VWs aren't blowing up in Europe. So, they could be using the same thing as VW, and it would be fine.

Anyway, the Audi A4 in Europe with a V6 TDI used 059 130 755 S, a CP1 family pump, and then changed to 059 130 755 BK in 2010, a CP4.2 pump. (US-spec versions of the V6 TDI got the BE suffix.)

List price on the S suffix part, according to Impex, in US dollars, is $3693.56.
On the BK suffix part, it's $3730.54.

Looks like, CP1 vs. CP4, I disproved my argument, although I'm surprised they used the CP1 that long. I'll get data on the V8s, though, as well...
 

bhtooefr

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4.2 V8 TDI used 057130755M before, which appears to be a CP3.3. Listed as $3953.56 on Impex.

Following revisions used in newer models:
057130755S, AC, and AE suffixes, all CP4, all $3953.56

Hrm. I'm wondering if Impex isn't reliable for this...
 

Niner

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I'd argue that it's the fuel, exacerbated by the design.
Even the VE pumps have been blowing up more often on US ULSD, in ways that they never did before.
A blown VE pump... can be replaced by anyone with a few tools, VCDS, and access to auctions on EGay, for very, very cheap, and it doesn't take out the whole fuel system, plus, it's probably over 10 years or more old.

Just sayin.... even a tooef could untooef a bad, worn out VE37, with a little coaching over the internet by drivbiwire or some other knowledgeable pump guru.
 
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Niner

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If in 180,000 miles I have to replace my DSG, I'm not taking it to the dealer for a $6000 repair.

I've always liked wagons (likely from all those years riding backwards as a kid). The last wagon I had was at the other end of the spectrum. A 1994 Caprice wagon. 350 LT-1. If you read about them you'll see they are noted for the 4L60e going out of them. The tranny was originally designed for lighter cars.

Mine eventually did. 165,000 miles. I didn't take it to the dealer and spend whatever it was they would have charged. $3000? I bought a used one.
I'll bet those DSG transmissions out of TDI's are going to be cheap too, once these cars start dying like flies when the HPFP goes on them out of warranty and the owner needs to pony up 7 to $8000. That will surely have these cars off the road in 7 or 8 years, particularly the 2009's and 2010's with the 1st two iterations of the HPFP.
 
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pknopp

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I'll bet those DSG transmissions out of TDI's are going to be cheap too, once these cars start dying like flies when the HPFP goes on them out of warranty and the owner needs to pony up 7 to $8000. That will surely have these cars off the road in 7 or 8 years, particularly the 2009's and 2010's with the 1st two iterations of the HPFP.
No facts so far shows that anything like that will happen. As I pointed out earlier, more and more are showing up for sale with over 100,000 miles.

People will fix any that happen to fail for far less in garages that dont have VW hanging outside the door.
 

Niner

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No facts so far shows that anything like that will happen. As I pointed out earlier, more and more are showing up for sale with over 100,000 miles.

People will fix any that happen to fail for far less in garages that dont have VW hanging outside the door.
Kinda like all those 01M's that were rebuilt outside of the VW logo'ed door? :confused:
 

pknopp

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Kinda like all those 01M's that were rebuilt outside of the VW logo'ed door? :confused:
I've just got back into diesels after quite a few years. Just briefly, I used to sell VW's from 87 to 95. I bought my first diesel in 82. A Rabbit that already had 150,000 miles on it.

Back when I was selling VW's nobody was interested in these first generation diesels. Gas was cheap. I was buying them for $4-500 wholesale.

I'm not fully aware of the problems the last 15 years but are you speaking about these?

http://www.autotransparts.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=201
 

South Coast Guy

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Here are some statistics that some could interpret about quality. I looked at the number of TSB's issued each year 2009-2011 for JSW and Audi A4. I picked the JSW becauase I drive one.

JSW; 09- 21, 2010- 20, 2011 - 7
Audi A4; 09 - 60, 2010 - 28, 2011-23

Admittedly this is not perfect. But looking at those numbers I would say that the VW Jetta Sportswagen is of a higher quality than an Audi A4. What do you think?
 

pleopard

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Dogparkguy, it's not as simple as that. To some degree it will depend on your definition of quality, but a TSB doesn't necessarily directly correlate w/ a "problem". Let's also keep in mind that Audis are packed with more tech and more luxury (more to go wrong). The QC standards used to build VW and Audi brands both run under standards such as VDA, ISO 16949, and the VW Formel-Q (in-house standard). They're all very strict standards. I know - I was project manager for the implementation of a quality mgmt system that allowed our company to supply Audi with an engineered wood veneer (Oak Beaufort). The veneer was debuted on the A7.

You also have to account for the demographic, the greater likelihood of complaints from consumers spending $10k to $20k more than a VW, etc.

If you were to look only at subsystem warranty repairs that are common between VW and Audi cars (2.0 TDI or TSI), you'd find they're very similar.
 
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South Coast Guy

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Dogparkguy, it's not as simple as that. To some degree it will depend on your definition of quality, but a TSB doesn't necessarily directly correlate w/ a "problem". Let's also keep in mind that Audi's are packed with more tech and more luxury (more to go wrong). The QC standards used to build VW and Audi brands both run under VDA, ISO 16949, and a VW in-house standard. They're all very strict standards.

You also have to account for the demographic, the greater likelihood of complaints from consumers spending $10k to $20k more than a VW, etc.

If you were to look only at subsystem warranty repairs that are common between VW and Audi cars (2.0 TDI or TSI), you'd find they're very similar.
I agree with your analysis; there is not a perfect correlation. I should probably look at more car makers.
 

highender

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I can't wait for the response.:D I just hope that the technical aspects of the HPFP especially pump design and test paramenters, comparison with new Delphi pump design, and so forth are not redacted.

VW seems to be hanging their hat on ASTM D975. But we all know that there is no way that "all retail" fuel will ever be able to meet this spec. 100% of the time. All mechanical design processes have a factor of safety which should be based on real world operational parameters the device will see. Apparently, Bosch / VW neglected the uncertainly that exists in the real world. I can't wait for VW's responses to the questions relating to how much water and gas cause a failure.

Correct. As a past Lab manager for the petroleum industry, I have to say that every single batch , almost , are entirely different from other batches of fuel. The amount of water, debris ( free floating, dissolved, condensated, etc), sulphur, aromatics, etc... Each batch basically varies so much that we kept a gallon of the sample for 6 months after sale, just in case of litigation.

I think a mechanical component such as HPFP, should be able to withstand variations in fuel quality.... because almost all batches at some point come in close contact to unwanted contaminants from refinery to your gas tank. Perhaps it is the high pressure itself, which presents a stress factor ( 25,000 lbs psi is very high) .

My uneducated guess is that all this has to do with a confluence of factors, slightly less than ideal fuel quality + the extreme stresses of high pressure + design mitigation + millions of RPM = HPFP failure
 

highender

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I was wondering, How does the HPFP failure rates compare to the rates of occurances at other countries like Germany, Mexico, Brazil, Canada, Australia, other Asian, other European countries ?? While US fuel guidelines and fuel quality may not be the BEST in the whole world, I would think that it is many times better and more stringent than those found in Africa, Asia, South America, etc.
 

Claudio

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what if the problem isn't the hpfp itself but the pump that send the fuel to it (lift pump?) that fail/get some air and let the hpfp starving -> no lubricity -> failure
 

kjclow

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I was wondering, How does the HPFP failure rates compare to the rates of occurances at other countries like Germany, Mexico, Brazil, Canada, Australia, other Asian, other European countries ?? While US fuel guidelines and fuel quality may not be the BEST in the whole world, I would think that it is many times better and more stringent than those found in Africa, Asia, South America, etc.
One difference in the fuel quality is that the US and Canada are both using Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (USLD). The method to reduce the sulfur also reduces the natural lubricity. At 15 ppm maximum for sulfur, I think we have the "cleanest" diesel in the world today. IIRC, Canada specifies a higher lubrictity standard and may be running B2. I am sure that someone will correct me on both parts if I am mistaken.
 

DPM

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what if the problem isn't the hpfp itself but the pump that send the fuel to it (lift pump?) that fail/get some air and let the hpfp starving -> no lubricity -> failure
Methinks the engine would be stopped before the pump was in any danger. There are two fuel circuits in the pump, and lubrication takes priority over injection.
 

dweisel

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dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
Methinks the engine would be stopped before the pump was in any danger. There are two fuel circuits in the pump, and lubrication takes priority over injection.
I'd have to disagree. Injection can continue even when there is not proper lubrication. When a hpfp is failing injection continues up until the fuel pressure is no longer available because swarf blocks the fuel from getting to the rail and injectors.Thats why even with the pump sheading serious metal the injection will continue. The hpfp has already failed because of lack of lubrication.

The lubricaton (low pressure side) does recieve more volume of fuel than the high pressure side. So,if you want to say that because the low pressure side recieves more fuel that is the 1st priority then I guess its just a difference of how you view it. Injection will happen reguardless of available lubrication.
 
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NateTDI

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I'm not sure what NHTSA can do anyway. The only real solution is if there was a new pump that could be installed that does not fail. If such a pump existed, NHTSA could order a recall to replace all the pumps.


But as nothing like that exists, (not to my knowledge anyway), then there is no way out.
 

bhtooefr

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One difference in the fuel quality is that the US and Canada are both using Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (USLD). The method to reduce the sulfur also reduces the natural lubricity. At 15 ppm maximum for sulfur, I think we have the "cleanest" diesel in the world today. IIRC, Canada specifies a higher lubrictity standard and may be running B2. I am sure that someone will correct me on both parts if I am mistaken.
Europe defines ULSD as 10 ppm maximum, and is required for Euro V compliance.

Canada does require 460 um wear scar, like Europe, though, IIRC.

I'm not sure what NHTSA can do anyway. The only real solution is if there was a new pump that could be installed that does not fail. If such a pump existed, NHTSA could order a recall to replace all the pumps.

But as nothing like that exists, (not to my knowledge anyway), then there is no way out.
NHTSA can also order buy-back and destruction of the cars, in the case of no fix being available, as happened with the Nissan Vans that were catching on fire, or the New Beetles that were produced after September 2010 with seat brackets that didn't meet 2011 standards.
 
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eddif

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what if the problem isn't the hpfp itself but the pump that send the fuel to it (lift pump?) that fail/get some air and let the hpfp starving -> no lubricity -> failure
Most of the CRs have a lift pump, feeding a booster pump, feeding the HPFP.
The 2012 passat has a higher pressure lift pump and no booster pump.
Some of us feel that low tank fuel levels can cause problems.


Methinks the engine would be stopped before the pump was in any danger. There are two fuel circuits in the pump, and lubrication takes priority over injection.
Dweisel is right about the pump injecting with limited lubrication and failing fuel supply.

I'd have to disagree. Injection can continue even when there is not proper lubrication. When a hpfp is failing injection continues up until the fuel pressure is no longer available because swarf blocks the fuel from getting to the rail and injectors.Thats why even with the pump sheading serious metal the injection will continue. The hpfp has already failed because of lack of lubrication.

The lubricaton (low pressure side) does recieve more volume of fuel than the high pressure side. So,if you want to say that because the low pressure side recieves more fuel that is the 1st priority then I guess its just a difference of how you view it. Injection will happen reguardless of available lubrication.
A reall problem occurs when the HPFP pressure regulator (bypass) valve screen (filter) clogs and the HPFP no longer gets a full lubricating flow of fuel; but the HP piston gets more / enough pressure feed (even if the filter for the HP piston filter is clogging).

During the time when the bypass valve screen is clogged,. 90% (?) of the wear materials are remaing in the lower part of the HPFP. These wear materials and no HPFP flush is the perfect setup to rapidly finish off a failing HPFP (wear materials clog the bypass screen).

eddif
 

Elfnmagik

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NateTDI, are you aware of the new Delphi pump VW is now using in Europe and that the NHTSA is aware of it and has questioned VW regarding?
 

eddif

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I suppose at the point the pea size filter screen clogs, the booster pump by-pass is in maximum operation and the booster pump is heavier loaded and has no flow to lubricate and cool it as well.

All this talk about the pea size screen does not make the screen the original problem, but it does show what can hasten the very end of the HPFP life.

eddif
 

RabbitGTI

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The comment about low fuel possibly being a problem is interesting. I know my 97 Passat is not CR, but if I run the tank down to under two gallons left and park on a hill, it is hard to start. I assume it ingests some air. There could be a perfect storm for HPFP failure, low fuel, low quality fuel and an obstructed filter.
 

ARBY

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The class action was dismissed yesterday. I've posted a docket printout in the JSW section.
 

lsnover

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The class action was dismissed yesterday. I've posted a docket printout in the JSW section.
Did this ever get to court? Is there anything more then a docket that is public record?

It would seem that folks with this problem might want to do what the lady who is having issues with Honda Civics Hybrids mileage claims is doing, namely take them to small claims court. No lawyers are allowed, it is mono-e-mono, defendant, plaintiff and judge.
 
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