Sorry to beat a dead horse but...Syntec vs Delvac

I was reading a thread on VWVortex re: the infamous oil question. SOmeone who sounds that they know what their talking about had this to say re: syntec & Delvac 1:

"I don't think that people need to be as concerned as they are about using only CG-4 oil in their TDI. The European ACEA 'B' specifications for passenger diesel engines, which both Mobil 1 and Castrol Syntec meet, don't have exact API equivalents. The 'B' specs are more demanding than CF, so conventional CF oil won't cut it, hence the switch to synthetic. But CG-4 is more like Europe's heavy-duty *commercial* 'E' rating, which is probably overkill for a passenger diesel.
Delvac 1 5W-40 has a higher viscosity (more turbo lag, less hp), higher phosphorous content (bad for cat), more residual ash, a lower flash point, and worse cold-flow characteristics than Mobil 1 or Castrol Syntec 5W-30. It's only "benefit" is a rating (CG-4, ACEA E5) that is higher than you need. Given that, I think that using Delvac 1 instead of the specified Syntec may be counterproductive."

Some fo the benefits of Delvac 1 that I've taken as gospel seem to be contradited by this persons statement. Especially this one:

"Delvac 1 5W-40 has a higher viscosity (more turbo lag, less hp), higher phosphorous content (bad for cat), more residual ash, a lower flash point, and worse cold-flow characteristics than Mobil 1 or Castrol Syntec 5W-30."

Where I live, we can expect sometimes weeks of -20C or less weather. Is Delvac the right oil for this climate, or does it perform better in extreme heat? Should I be using one for winter, and another for summer?

Since you seem concerned about cold characteristics, I would point out that:

spec........Delvac1 5w40...Syntec 5w30
pour.pt........-54c..........-39c



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Mike

Syntec is crap, plain and simple.

I do 90% of my driving at highway speeds.

After 6000 miles on the Castrol Syntec it was already close to the saturation point with soot.

'sides syntec is not synthetic. You are in canada (right?), try Petro Canada's Duron XL in the 0W30 weight. It'll work wonderfully all year round in the TDI. Meets every HD diesel extended drain rating, has all teh good stuff to 'kill' soot monsters, and the lower viscosity will keep your turbo spinning happily!

My 99.5 manual says CG-4 or CH-4. One of the few things the books is specific about. If I could only get my dealer to read that section!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Someone who sounds that they know what their talking about had this to say re: syntec & Delvac 1: <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this guy is so smart, why isnt he here with the real smart folks??

Good point, Switca!

Yes, he is simply wrong on some issues, and fails to fully grasp some other issues. His pour-point claim, compared to Syntec, is wrong. That's not surprising, since Syntec isn't really "synthetic" and therefore can't be expected to perform as well at cold temperatures as a true synthetic oil. Delvac 1 may have a slightly higher pour point than Mobil 1, due to the additional additives, but the difference is not important unless you live in northern Canada or Alaska. (If you do, Delvac 1 is available in a 0w30 viscosity.

He is correct that VW's European specs call for ACEA "B" grade oil. But remember that until recently VW specified CF in North America. We all know that's not right, don't we? Even VW has recognized that fact, and in direct opposition to Mr. Vortex's claims they now specify x-4 rated synthetic oil. That eliminates Syntec and Mobil 1 from the running right off the bat. Besides, you can't assume that VW has any better clue in Europe than they do here. In fact, there is a new ACEA rating that was recently developed in cooperation with Volkswagen with the TDI engines specifically in mind, and which exceeds the requirements of the "B" rating.

He claims that CG-4 (or higher) is "overkill", but also states: "so conventional CF oil won't cut it, hence the switch to synthetic." That demonstrates a lack of understanding of the reasons for using x-4 oils, compared to the reasons for using synthetic. They are two separate issues. The x-4 rated oils are important for keeping the soot in suspension. Synthetic has a number of benefits compared to dino oil, especially in terms of protecting the hot turbo bearings, but soot control isn't substantially better with a synthetic. In fact, some claim that an oil's additives package is actually less effective in a synthetic than in a dino oil, so switching to a synthetic will not eliminate the need for the higher level of soot tolerance of an x-4 oil. And obviously, using a synthetic CF oil like Mobil 1 will certainly NOT control soot as well as x-4 rated Delvac 1. Unless he is advocating the use of dino-based oil in lieu of synthetic, that point is moot.

Lastly, he seems to adhere to a mistaken opinion that a TDI is somehow less "hard" on oil than a heavy duty diesel engine, and that it's oil specification requirements should be less stringent. Nothing could be farther from the truth. A TDI produces far more power per cubic inch of displacement than any stock heavy-duty diesel. Combustion chamber pressures will be substantiall higher. Since a primary source of oil contaminants are "blow-by gases" which leak past the rings, and the TDI has a higher ratio of swept area to cylinder volume than a large-displacement engine, one would expect to see proportionally more contaminants get into a TDI's oil sump than in a big diesel. Large commercial diesels also have a greater oil sump capacity per unit of engine displacement than a TDI. That oil is usually put through a much more stringent filtering process than ours. Bypass filters are almost universally used on commercial engines, and are often augmented by centrifugal filters that can remove soot and other contaminants that even the best bypass filters can't touch.

Bottom line: We should have HIHGER standards for our oil than commercial engines have, not lower ones. Arguments to the contrary are based on inaccurate assumptions.

-mickey



[This message has been edited by mickey (edited December 03, 1999).]

Touche!

GeWilli, I've got Delvac 1 but this Duron stuff is probably eaier for me to get. Is it a synthetic?

And to answer your original question, Cleve: -20 C. won't bother 5w40 Delvac 1 at all. If you're really worried about it, you can get some 0w30 Delvac 1. But you won't have any problems with your oil. I'd say that 5w40 Delvac 1 is an excellent choice for both winter and summer where you live, and beats Mobil 1 or Syntec hands down. (For that matter, 0w30 Delvac 1 would handle any high temperatures that a TDI could ever throw at it, and you'd probably get slightly better power and fuel economy with it. I just like the added high-temp protection of the 5w40 synthetics. You can't be too careful!)

-mickey

the Duron XL is a Synthetic Bland using the awesome new Group III base (see Dom C's Posts).

Passes all the tests, exceeds them so they claim, cheaper than a full synthetic and 95% as good, ie should go the 10k miles easy!!!!!

Since I am the originator of the quoted information found over on the VWVortex forums, I thought I would register here and answer my critics.

First, I never made a claim about the pour point of Delvac 1 versus Syntec, but I did make a claim about "cold flow characteristics." I should have written "cold cranking characteristics," because I was referring to cold cranking viscosity at -25 C (IIRC, 3200 cP for Delvac 5W-40, 2400 cP for Syntec 5W-30, and 2100 cP for Mobil 1 5W-30).

Second, VW may have originally specified CF exactly because they didn't want to overspecify CH-4, and make consumers and dealers seek out this less common and harder to find oil. This was a mistake, but they seem to have fixed it by specifying ACEA B1 rated Syntec 5W-30. I have no cause to believe that VW's German engineers are so incompetent as to specify the wrong ACEA service class. The only thing I don't trust are the people who translate the manuals from German to English, and the marketing people who decide what U.S. consumers will and won't put up with, such as having to look long and hard for an ACEA rated oil.

I believe that Mickey is also incorrect about the new ACEA specification, B4, in that it is not more stringent than B1, B2, or B3. It is actually identical to B2, and inferior to B3, but requires one additional engine test in a VW DI engine, which rates piston cleanliness, ring sticking, and viscosity increase at 40 C. See for youself at: http://www.acea.be/GasEng4.htm

I also stated that, "conventional CF oil won't cut it, hence the switch to synthetic." My original post was hurried, and I apologize for any confusion my lack of expansion on that point may have caused. Conventional SJ/CF oils, most of which lack an ACEA B rating, "won't cut it." VW therefore chose synthetic, because the marjority of synthetic oil sold, including Syntec and Mobil 1, carries a B1 or B3 rating.

Contrary to Mickey's opinion, passenger diesel engines are most certainly "less hard" on oil than heavy-duty commercial diesel engines. Specific output ("power per cubic inch of displacement") is not the only factor determining how hard an engine is on oil. 90+ percent of the time, passenger diesel engines are under much less load than commercial diesel engines that may be under nearly full load pulling a trailer up an incline at 85 mph for a few hours at a stretch. Your TDI, flat out, is much faster than an 18-wheeler, right? That's because you have a much higher power-to-weight ratio. Under ordinary driving (which even "hard drivers" are doing 90% of the time while they are cruising on the highway, stuck in traffic, etc.), your engine is under much less stress than the engine pulling a forty ton trailer. Filtering also doesn't remove much soot if the oil is properly holding it in suspension. Oil drain intervals in big-rigs are also often 60,000 miles or more, which is why the greater soot dispersivity of CH-4 oils is required.

It should also be noted that using synthetic will not allow you to ignore recommended viscosity gradings. xW-30 may be sufficient for TDI's in North America, but if sustained high-load conditions warrant a higher viscosity, like xW-40, then no xW-30, even synthetic, will do. The ability of synthetics to "protect better" at high temperatures is related to their resistance to oxidation; it should really be said that they "protect longer". Thier viscosity still decreases, and if the 3.5 cP high-temperature/high-shear viscosity of an A2/B2 oil is required for some reason, then the 2.9 cP HTHS viscosity of an A1 simply will not do, synthetic or otherwise.

TooSlick, I wonder why, after stating that, "all Amsoils' SJ/CF rated products exceed the VW 505.0 spec, as well as the ACEA Al/A2 and B1/B2 specifications," you would still want a CH-4? A conservative choice, for sure. Meeting SJ specifications also doesn't guarantee low phosphorous, as the .10% limit applies only to 0W-20, 5W-20, 5W-30, and 10W-30. Any xW-40 is free to include as much phosphorous as the maker wishes, and many do, as the phosphorous is an anti-wear additive which may be depleted during a 60,000 mile drain interval if starting at a .10% level.

For more info on API, ACEA, and Japanese oil specs, see: http://www.lubrizol.com/referencelibrary/readyreference/index.htm

OK, so now that Mickey and Passat1.8Tm have fired their opening salvos, what the f--k are you all talking about???

Let me lay out this caveat, I basically agree with Mickey's assessment.

So Passat1.8 are you saying that if I use Mobil 1 in my TDI for 10,000 miles, it will treat my engine better than will Delvac 1? Is that right???

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Jeff Teolis
2000 Jetta GL TDI
Black/Black

Completely Stock

JeffT,

No he is saying that Syntec is 'sufficient', and that Delvac 1 is overkill.

This is due to a misunderstanding of the definition of the API ratings and the ACEA ratings as well.

He quoted a good source, the ACEA web site itself. The page though is pretty clear that the B1 is the lowest rating, while the B4 is the highest rating. The fact that the B4 includes NEW tests that the lower ratings don't have to pass is the BIGGEST hint.

See section 2.1 and 2.4 for example. The B4 rating tests the newer DI engines, while the B1,2,3 are test the IDI engines.

He is correct that its hard to match API ratings to ACEA ratings, but a CG-4 is as close as it gets. Its a rating for a high speed Direct injected diesel with an EGR setup. Hmmm sound familiar?

Basically an American CG-4 rated oil would be able to meet the ACEA B tests.

Some of the CH-4 oils we have would NOT meet the ACEA E tests.

ACEA E rating system has tests that have higher tolerances then the CH-4 requirements.

Oils that meet the CH-4 extended tests, EO-L plus and Cummins 20076 are more representative of what we have in the E ACEA range.

Lets all not forget the oil analysis findings of Gewilli's Syntec compared to Mickey's Delo synth.

Which one started to fail at 6K miles, and which one was still good at 10K miles. So if you want to follow VW's drain time intervals, its fairly obvious you can't use a CF rated oil. A synthetic CF rated oil perhaps, but I think we all know Syntec is neither 'sufficient' nor a synthetic, by our definition: A group IV or better oil.

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My Project GTD and diesel page http://kozmik.guelph.on.ca/gtdproject




[This message has been edited by Dominique Cormann (edited December 03, 1999).]

OK folks, without meaning to sound testy, I'm getting a little upset that people keep writing about my "misunderstanding" the API and ACEA specs. I generally try to be a bit more considerate and admit the possibility that I'm wrong before I criticise others.

Anyway, regarding the ACEA specs, it's not exactly correct to say that B1 is the "lowest" spec, or that B4 is the highest. B1 has a lower high-temperature/high-shear viscosity requirement than B2, for vehicles (mostly American and Japanese) that are specifically designed for this type of oil. B3 poses the toughest standard in terms of high-temperature dispersivity and viscosity increase, wear, and volatility. B4 is similar to B2 (and inferior to B3), but includes a VW DI engine test that rates piston cleanliness and ring sticking. Oils, like Delvac 1, can be both B3 and B4.

Dominique is, however, correct about that I did not mean to imply that Delvac was not a good oil, only that Syntec was sufficient. Delvac is better in some regards (such as soot dispersivity), but Syntec is better in others (such as cold cranking performance, pumpability at -25 C, and catalyst compatibility). I'm sure that both Syntec and Delvac work quite well.

And as for Syntec not being "synthetic", hogwash! It is made of chemically altered base stocks, and just because is isn't made like the "original synthetic" (Mobil 1, PAO), does not mean that it's non-synthetic or inferior. It may be inferior, or it may be superior; without conducting my own extensive tests, I can't be sure, but both Mobil 1 and Syntec meet the same ACEA specs, so as far as I can tell, they offer functionally equivalent performance.

Passat1.8t,

Regarding the ACEA B rating system. Your right it isn't a straight 1 -> 4 scale, with 1 being worst, and 4 being highest. Its more like 1-3 are rated that way, but the new B4 rating is for DI engines as sits by itself.
http://www.htlubricants.com/eng/html/tips/tips-mystery.html

The ACEA section summarizes it nicely (Petro canada's page).

B1-96 Passenger Car Diesel Fuel Economy Oil
B2-96 Passenger Car Diesel Moderate Performance
B3-96 Passenger Car Diesel High Performance

They didn't list a B4 rating. Driving a car in a high performance many would demand more from an oil...thus the scale. The B4 is an oddball class since its the only one really designed for the DI engines.

A 5w40 isn't going to rob you of any amount of power that you could feel! ( We are talking about a 1-2hp difference ) Obviously a higher viscousity will be less efficient, but it also will decrease enginev wear. This is the reason why it is used more in europe where ppl tend to drive cars faster at higher RPMS. To diesel owners, longevity is more important.

The delvac 1 will not harm the soot oxidizer on the TDI. None of the oils availible to us affect this thing, so this point is meaningless.

The slightly lower flash point is meaningless.

Cold temp comparisons are hard since we are comparing different viscousities. The Mobil 1 comes in lower viscousities (0w30, 5w30)and so it does slightly better then the delvac 1. The 10w30 is about the same, and the 15w50 is worse.

The castrol is horrible for a 'synthetic'. A pour point of -38C for the 5w30, is WORSE then all the good MINERAL 10w30 CH-4 oils on the market! Diesel oils from Chevron, shell, Petro canada, and Pennzoil all do better, and thats comparing it to a slightly higher viscousity. The devlac easily outdoes the syntec in cold performance.

Regarding the syntec and performance compared to a group IV or V or mixed IV/V oil. Castrol has admited that its not using the old PAO/ester formula anymore. The new mineral derived formula cannot equal the performance of a PAO in all regards. Currently on the base oil market, even the new group III oils only manage to meet or be close to some performance characteristics of the group IV pao base oils. They don't exceed them. So its not possible for syntec to outdo a PAO based oil, let alone a mix or ester based synthetic.
http://www.theautochannel.com:8080/news/press/date/19990520/press023679.html

This article sums up the issues with group III oils. Bottom line is they exist because they offer great bang for the buck. Great specs, but yet cheaper then PAO's. Are they as good? NO! Are they cheaper? YES. Is the 'NEW' Castrol syntec passing on any of these savings to the customers? HELL NO!

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My Project GTD and diesel page
http://kozmik.guelph.on.ca/gtdproject

Cleve,

I spoke to someone in Amsoil tech services department about this issue. They recommend their CH-4/SJ synthetics even for light duty,non-turbo diesels - the additive package does a better job of preventing high temp piston deposits and the oils are more shear stable. Polymer shearing is much more of a problem in diesels, in fact my oil test results in gas engines consistently show thickening due to oxidation of the basestock. I should point out that all Amsoils' SJ/CF rated products exceed the VW 505.0 spec, as well as the ACEA Al/A2 and B1/B2 specifications. They also have a TBN of 11.0 - higher than most petroleum diesel oils.

Mobil Delvac 1, Delo 400 synthetic and Amsoil exceed the API SJ spec, this calls for reduced phosphorus to extend catalyst life. Oil consumption using these oils is on the order of .25-.50 qts/5000 miles - this is hardly enough to cause pre-mature cat failure.

I've also been calling VW to find out why they recommend synthetics - spoke to a big VW dealership in Auburn Hills, MI (their corporate HQ). He said it's primarily for improved turbocharger protection and that VW recommends 5k/6 month changes (max) when using a SJ/CF rated synthetic. They tell their customers to pay for an extra oil/filterr change at the 15k mark. The "5wt" viscosity rating is so the oil flows well on startup and 30wt oils will circulate more rapidly even after the engine reaches normal operating temp than a 40wt oil. The TDI engine has small internal clearances compared to an over the road diesel, so a 15w-40 oil is really too thick. Based on this my recommendation would be:
For 10,000 mile/1 year changes:

1) 5w-30, CH-4 100% synthetic
2) 5w-40, CH-4 "
3) 10w-40, CH-4 "
4) 10w-30, CH-4 synthetic blends

For 5000 mile/ 6 mth changes:

1) 0w-30/5w-30, SJ/CF, PAO/Ester synthetic with the highest TBN available (above 9.0)
Meeting ACEA (Al/B1/A2/B2) and VW 505 specs.
2) 10w-30 SJ/CF full synthetic (as above)
3) 15w-40, CH-4 rated petroleum diesel oil - but only above 40F ....

To save some $$$ you can just use the synthetic for Oct-March and the petroleum oil for April-Sept, if you live someplace where there are large seasonal changes.

Thanks Dominique, the recent oil analysis of the syntec did indeed show an inability to last sufficiently for the 10,000 mile interval, and this forum has already formed a consensus that the castrol or other SJ/CF oils would be "ok" if you plan on 3,000 or 5,000 change intervals. In fact I let vw put their 5W 40 syntec into my car at the first 5,000 change for that reason, but at 10,000 in goes the Delvac 1. I want to use Delvac 1 cause I won't be doing oil analysis, at least not on a regular basis, so I want security.

So, Passat1.8Tm, are you saying that I could use Mobil 1, instead of Delvac 1 for 10,000 miles to no detrimental effect whatsoever in my TDI?

WOW, I don't want to get into this argument, but here's my two cents worth anyway. At my local discount house Castrol Syntec (supposedly full synthetic they claim) is $4.26 per quart. I just bought Mobil Delvac 1 at $16.25 per gallon, or $4.06 per quart.

Even if Mobil Delvac 1 is "overkill" why would I use an inferior Castrol Syntec and pay more?

JeffT, that would be my contention, yes. That, based on the information I have, you could use Mobil 1 instead of Delvac 1 in your TDI for 10,000 miles with no detrimental effect.

As for the Syntec analysis, I could only find one (GeWilli's from 2 Dec), and it doesn't indicate to me that 10,000 miles is too long for Syntec. Soot was at .5% after 6000 miles, and the max. is listed at .7%. Extrapolating, GeWilli might reach .7% after 9400 miles -- close enough to 10k for me. GeWilli seems to have an abnormally high level of soot, compared to mickey's .6% after 10 kmi, and TooSlick mentioned that Blackstone listed .8% as being the max. level somewhere else, in which case GeWilli's oil might have been good to 10,600 miles. I read the results of this test as inconclusive, but there's nothing there to make me worry about using Syntec for 10 kmi.

Dominique, if you want to get the ACEA rating information straight from the horse's mouth, go to http://www.acea.be/details.htm

I agree that turbo lag and lost hp due to a 5W-40 probably wouldn't be noticeable, and I'll be using an ACEA A2 rated 10W-40 (Valvoline DuraBlend) in my 1.8T soon, just to be conservative and stick to the Euro specs. However, since I think that Syntec's B1 rating would perform more than adequately in a TDI, by switching to Delvac 1, you may be trading one unnoticeable drawback (higher viscosity) for one unnoticeable benefit (higher ACEA rating). I'm also not certain about your comment that higher viscosity will reduce engine wear. This is a theory that I believe was thoroughly discredited when Castrol claimed exactly that after introducing it's Syntec 5W-50. Any viscosity higher than the minimum required has no measurable effect on wear. If you have contrary evidence, I would be interested in seeing it.

I'm not sure what you mean about the Delvac not harming the TDI's soot oxidizer; I don't believe that I even suggested that it would. Delvac's higher phosphorous content, however, does have the potential to damage the catalytic converter. But again, it's only a potential, not a certainty, and probably falls into the catagory of unnoticeable drawback.

I agree that Delvac's slightly lower flashpoint is practically meaningless, as is it's slightly lower pour point. If it doesn't get below -25 C where you live, then Syntec 5W-30 offers slightly superior cold cranking performance.

Notice all the slightly's here? Delvac 1 may be slightly better in some regards, and Syntec slightly better in others. They are both good oils that are properly rated for TDI's. That was my original point -- that people didn't need to get so upset that they called their dealer and VWOA morons for using the "wrong" oil. That no one needed to feel that they were killing their TDI if the left the Syntec in the crankcase until their next oil change. And that no one needed to go out of their way to obtain Delvac 1 unless they had a burning, personal desire to do so.

Now, on a more conciliatory note, I'm very glad we have these forums, I'm glad we've had this discussion, and I hope we can continue to learn from eachother. So, acknowledging that hydroisomerized oils are probably slightly inferior to PAO's; and that Castrol's marketing claims were a bit on the shady side; and being a person who always looks for the biggest "bang for the buck"; what's this I hear about Penzoil PureBase using the same Group III oils that Syntec does? Is this true? Can I really get a superior, "synthetic" oil for my short drain interval (5000 mi) Passat 1.8T without paying $4/qt for Syntec or Mobil 1? Does anyone know if PureBase meets ACEA requirements? If nobody answers, I'm calling Penzoil first thing Monday morning! This would be a truly good deal, as I think I saw PureBase available for even less than I pay for my Valvoline DuraBlend semi-synthetic, and as long as it meets ACEA specs, I'll used the cheapest oil I can get.

Okay It is saturday and I'm jumpin in here.

(wow, even not at work I can't get away)

I am under the information that the base stock Syntec is group II not group III. Group III (petro canada is all GIII, Chevron and Shell use a blend of GII and GIII) is touted to be superior to GII.

Passat1.8Tm, if you put Penzoil in your turbo, kiss it goodbye. CHeck the General discussion group for Turbo failures.

The additives in the motor oil are a bigger factor in wear and problems (ie penzoil).

Syntec is not a synthetic, we have gone over and over and over it. It is a better blend of additives (to the GII base stock) than Penzoil's stuff but it costs significantly more.

Yes my analysis results are alittle inconclusive. Maybe I could go 10k with the stuff. Maybe the oil filter in the new A4 TDI (big cart. type) has the ability to keep the soot down to the 0.5% level. The other thing is that the level is due to factors other than soot, any precipitates.

A good group III oil has a unique property that has been brought up here before that is particularly beneficial to a TDI, it suspends soot in smaller particles because it prevents static clumps from forming (that is w/o adding additives). Damage due to soot is caused when these soot particles aggregate, which generally happens due to static electricity.

If you have driven one of these TDIs I would that you might guess that there is only one diesel engine with higher performance than the one we have here in the states and that is the PumpDuse avail in Europe.

My interpretation of the ACEA rating is that B1 is good for small indirect injected engines, B2 is good for Turbo indirect engine and B3 is for 1st generation Turbo direct injected engines. B4 would be for the new TDIs including pumpduse (up to 150hp) and the 115hp 99 Euro TDIs (non-PD).

Many folks here are driving TDIs that are super high performance (WETT chips, tuned Turbos, new intakes and exhaust). Mickey, Peter C, and Skypup to name a few. I would imaging that there is no way that their TDIs would be called moderate performance, Skypup or Peter could give you a run for you money in yout 1.8 and probably teach you a lesson about Diesel performance. A rating of CF just isn't enough.

Also when you look at my wear levels and soot, keep in mind that I drive pretty much 90% with no load other that a 78mph wind resistance, completely flat, CC on all the time, and maybe 1-2% of the time I am winding the car up and making folks humble at stop lights. I might put myself amoung the most gentle drivers here based on my conditions. . .

Mobil corp has been quoted here in this forum as stating that Mobil 1 is not the correct oil to go 10k in a TDI.

Passat, remember that Big rigs have Fancy bypass filters running all the time, and they have capacities of oil that are in the GALLON range, they have a much greater oil to displacement ratio that our little TDIs, that is how they can go so long without changing, not cause of the additive base diff. Bartlett has 50k miles on the oil in his TDI but that is running with a bypass filter.

If you want to debate the stuff here, get up to speed, ie Chevy's refusing to use Syntec, teh fact that Castrol is supposedly supplying a special oil for our TDIs that isn't as far as we can see.

Some of us here have been working on this topic for months and/or years, trying to find out what is really going on, why things are the way they are, why we have basically concluded that a Cx-4 rating is really a minimum rating to go the full 10k safely. Sure my results look great but if I drove in rushhour traffic or in a city at all do you think that the Syntec 'crap' would have held up that well??????

(oh pour point and ccP stuff, try finding another 5W-40 oil with the same numbers, it is not fair to compare a 5W-30 with a 5W-40 in cold cranking numbers, Syntec will have better ccp #s only cause it is a 5W-30)

Time to get off my soap box for now before the snipers get out of bed and start taking shots . . .


Top 5 oils to use in a TDI from the information I have at this point . . .

#1 Mobil Delvac -1 (5W40)
#2 Chevron Delo Sythetic (5W40)
#3 Amsoil 3000 (5W30) - might be the best but too expensive-
#4 Petro Canada Duron XL (0W30) GIII/synth blend
#5 Amsoil 2000 (10W40) (did I get the specs right Tslick?)

(anyone want to challenge this list )



[This message has been edited by GeWilli (edited December 04, 1999).]

Gewilli's correct. We've been trying to figure out what the syntec is using for a base oil. The capabilities they brag about hint that perhaps its a group III, however we also have concluded that they brag about qualities that they couldn't possible achieve due to what the product really is made of. From the Harts Lubricant world article, castrol disclosed enough facts that we could also conclude its really just a simple group II oil with a hopefully better then average additive package. Thats a best case scenerio. With all the misinformation castrol has been spewing, its hard to believe they are willing to create a good product.

Gewilli's oil analysis data talked about the soot level, but the other issue was the additive package was reach the level that it would deplete soon and then all that soot would fall out of suspension. So it needed to be changed. Don't just look at the soot level, look at additive levels too. The max soot in the test, would be the max soot in suspension. Any level of soot not in suspension is bad, so you change the oil before the max soot level in suspension is reached, but since that won't happen before the additive package is depleted, you really change the oil prior to the additive package
being depleted.

Gewilli's interpretation of the B1-4 rating system sounds like the best so far.

Regarding Mobil 1, yes please call mobil and ask them. I have, others have...they will repeat to you what they have repeated to us. Although the oil has a CF rating, and in fact its has more additives in it then needed to meet the CF rating ( much better then its competition ), they still don't recommend it. They will not warrenty its use, even if it does work, they recommend the delvac line for diesels big and small. They recommend the mineral 1300 delvac before they recommend the mobil 1!

Passat,

Regarding the theory from Castrol and viscousity. From a very simplistic view this is correct. Oil film at lower rpm is thinner at higher rpm. The faster the rpm, the more oil wraps itself around rotation objects in the engine. This happens up to radically high rpm when the oil is sheered off by the rotating force. Diesels don't reach those rpms. We live in a the lower rpm range. We also tend to apply more torque to bearings then gas cars at these lower rpms. Because of this, we require a higher viscousity to achieve a fatter oil film sooner. This is why xw40 oils are popular for diesels. I know this is in contradiction to what one part of VW is saying, but I have seen parts of the TDI engine apart. The tolerances are NOT smaller then any of the older diesel vw engines, so this is rubbish. VW likes the xW30 synthetics because they are a compromise. Being a synthetic they will produce a stronger oil film at a lower viscousity, so this offsets the disadvantages of running a xW30, and being a xw30 you get a fuel efficiency advantage. Thats the real reason. Its a comprimise. You have to pick your own priorities. Mine is oil film thickness. Its a level of insurance, because diesel drivers tend to run lower RPMs most of the time...yes we sometimes even lug our engines around.
We need an oil that has a good oil film sooner.

Passat, you REALLY need to look at the specs again for the Syncrap. At ANY given temp below freezing the Mobil products of similar viscousity have a lower cSt viscousity, and this is why they eventually reach a lower pour point!

The delvac 1 isn't 'slightly, its outperforms the syntec is every spec. As far as being overkill, I can't agree with this. If you would like to run the 10 K mile drain times, this is the kind of oil you want. If you want to run a lesser oil, you must lower your drain time. For the syntec that means cutting that number in half.

I haven't yet figured out if the Penzoil Purebase oil is a group II or III, until I know different I assume its a group II, since group III oils are a new group of oils. The syntec is in the same group. Being optimistic it might be a group III oil. It would need to be at least, to be able to even slightly meet the claims they make of the oil, but more then likely it too is just a group II oil.

If you hear words like hydrocracked, hydrotreated, isodewaxed...your looking at a group II oil. The same techniques are used to create group III oils too, BUT marketing at that point usually starts spouting words like Very high viscousity index base oils, or extremely high...etc.
http://www.goa-northcoastoil.com/tips/apicateg.html

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My Project GTD and diesel page
http://kozmik.guelph.on.ca/gtdproject

I'm afraid that we may be talking past each other a bit here, and not reaching any conclusions. If we don't start resolving at least some things soon, I'll be forced to leave this debate and you all can use whatever oil you want, without my free advice.

My main point is that Syntec may not fit your definition of synthetic, and it may not be worth $4/qt, but provided that it has at least an ACEA B1 rating, it should be fine for a full 10,000 miles in your TDI.

GeWilli, if you reread the Hart's article, assuming the info is correct, you'll see that Syntec is made from hydroisomerized base oil, which is chemically altered petroleum. The molecular weight is largely unchanged, but the structure is heavily modified. This is a form of chemical synthesis, and is what makes Syntec a full-synthetic. Mobil 1 is made from PAOs, which have a similar molecular weight to Syntec's base stocks, but are built up from smaller molecules. Guess where those smaller molecules come from? Petroleum. So, Mobil's base stocks are made from petroleum molecules which are broken down into smaller molecules and recombined into larger molecules. Syntec's base stocks are made from petroleum molecules which are rearranged, essentially combining the normally separate break-down and build-up steps into one. Castrol should be commended for popularizing a process which results in an oil with 95% of the performance of PAOs, but at 50% of the cost. You may be mad that they didn't pass on any cost savings to you, but you paid for the Castrol name and slick marketing, just like you are paying for Mobil's name and slicker marketing. This is capitalism, get over it.

Your interpretation of the ACEA ratings is not quite correct. The ACEA is best able to describe it's own oil ratings, I suggest you read closely the following page: http://www.acea.be/details.htm

B1 is for engines (mostly American and Japanese) specifically designed for low viscosity oils (5W-30 and 10W-30). B2 is a general purpose oil for use in most European engines requiring higher-viscosity (xW-40). B3 is for high-performance engines and long-drain intervals, and no, as much as you like your TDI's and I my 1.8T, neither qualifies as high-performance. High-performance is a Porsche that hits 180 mph, or the new BMW 3.9L DI turbodiesel which makes 300 hp and has as much torque (500 lb-ft) as a Dodge Viper, from less than half the displacement. B4 is for DI diesels "where special quality oils are required." Only VW knows if TDI's require special quality oils.

If you modify your engine (and I certainly see nothing wrong with that), then you must make your own decisions regarding oil changes, maintainence, as the manufacturers recommendations no longer apply and neither do my recitations of them. And, may I repeat *again*, that I *never*, *ever* claimed that a CF rating was "enough". I only ever claimed that an ACEA B rating was enough, and I still believe it is, for stock TDIs.

As for Mobil, show me where they said Mobil 1 was unfit for a TDI. Don't show me where they say Mobil 1 shouldn't be used in applications requiring CH-4, I know that it shouldn't. I want to see Mobil say that it's flagship synthetic oil, the one with the ACEA A and B ratings, should not be used in a _T_D_I_, specifically. I don't think they've ever said that, because VW only requires ACEA B2 or B3 (and possibly soon B4).

WRT to oil-to-displacement, not that it means anything by itself, big rigs do not have significantly higher ratios than TDI's. Extrapolating from a 1.9L TDI with a 4.5 quart oil capacity, a 10.6L MB would have about a 25 quart (6 gallon) capacity, which is about correct. Heavy-duty diesels are also under much greater average load than any passenger diesel.

As for getting up to speed, GM's refusal to certify Syntec, if true, has no bearing on VW TDI's. If Syntec no longer meets GM's specs, then don't put it in your Corvette. So long as it continues to meet VW's specs, you should feel safe putting it in your TDI. Of course, it doesn't hurt that VW specifically recommends it, either. I can't believe how many people are willing to trust that VW engineers a great vehicle, and then think that it is so incompetent that it can't choose a satisfactory oil.

And finally, GeWilli, why is it unfair to compare Syntec 5W-30's cold-cranking performance to Delvac 1's, *if* the added viscosity and soot-handling performance of Delvac 1 isn't necessary?

Dominique, exactly which additives have been depleted in GeWilli's Syntec? I must admit that at first I didn't look closely at the additive level in GeWilli's Syntec analysis, especially since the additive level isn't really obvious in this kind of (spectrographic) analysis. Additives may become depleted without their constituent atoms acutally leaving the oil (they still show up upon analysis even though they are no longer in an effective molecular form).

Oil films must only be thick enough to prevent sliding metal surfaces from entering a boundary, or mixed friction, region more often than is acceptable. You can't tell from looking at a bearing surface whether that surface is smooth to 10 microns, 1 micron, or .1 micron, and there are many factors determining minimum acceptable oil film thickness besides manufacturing tolerances, like bearing area. Film thickness is also affected by operating temperature of the oil, in asmuch as the viscosity of the oil changes with temperature. Heavy-duty diesels pulling heavy trailers are under heavier load than passenger diesels, and as a result run with much higher oil temperatures, which is why they prefer 5W-40. A typical 5W-30 oil at 212 F has more than twice the viscosity of a 5W-40 at 300 F. I have the viscosity-temperature curves for all grades of Mobil 1 and Delvac 1, and I can tell you that Mobil 1 xW-30 has a higher viscosity than Delvac 1 5W-40 at any temperature that is about 40 degrees Fahrenheit lower. Forgive me for trusting the designers of the engine, who say that synthetic 5W-30 is OK. VW doesn't have much of an incentive to underspecify viscosity, since it must pass EPA mileage tests with the 5W-40 factory fill oil, and as you've mentioned before, the difference is so small (1-2 mpg at best) that most customers would never notice a change.

As I pointed out in my very first post on VWVortex (which now seems a long, long time ago), there are many specs where Delvac 1 falls short of Syntec 5W-30. Among them are cold cranking performance (at least down to -25 C), catalyst compatibility, pumpability (at -35 C), residual ash, and flashpoint. That said, I'm sure it is still a fine oil, meeting the same ratings Syntec does, and more. Ratings, like viscosity, higher than what you need, are often no improvement, and sometimes worse. So, again, until someone shows me that Syntec is damaging engines, I will maintain that it is an acceptable choice that no one need feel insecure about. The choice between Syntec and Delvac 1 is, as always, yours, but from where I sit it is a toss-up.

To add something to the debate. I have in front of me one of Castrol's 5W-40 specially formulated for VW.

It says in the label:

"Specially formulated to meet specifications of Volkswagen 502 00/505 00"
"Full Synthetic Motor Oil"

At the back, it says.

"Castrol Syntec is engineered to provide the ultimate in engine protection:
Offers full synthetic performance engineered specifically to meet the Volkswagen engine warranty requirements, including testing in VW TDI engines.
Castrol Syntec helps extend engine life by reducing wear, and keeping your engine clean.

Castrol Syntec exceeds all car and light truck manufacturers' warranty requirements for the protection of gasoline, diesel and turbocharged engines where API SJ or CF is recommended. Castrol Syntec also exceeds the world's toughest engine protection requirements including Volkswagen 502.00 505.00 and European ACEA: A3 and B3."

The API donut says API Service SJ/CF, SAE 5W-40.

Now, my question is, is it enough with ACEA B3, what does VW recommend in Europe for the TDI?

My 2 cents.

Passat,

We know what the new syntec is. We are not argueing the definition of synthetic. We are saying that its performance is lower then a group IV or V oil. We already understand the definition of a synthetic is an ongoing debated issue in the petro industry. However the performance between the API base group oils ratings is not debateable.

" B4 Oil intended primarily for use in car and light van direct injection diesel engines where special quality oils are required. " http://www.acea.be/details.htm

Sounds like the TDI better then the other ratings. Its the only one that is for a DI engine.

The mobil 1 in a diesel issue can be explained to you via the tech line. We have phoned it, if you need to hear it, you should phone them too.

GM's refusale to recertify the new formula of syntec is because no matter what kind of oil it is (synthetics or whatever) it won't pass the wear test. This reflects on its poor performance compared to other oils that do pass. From this we can extrapolate two things. Mobil 1, Valvoline synpower and other oils with the rating are superior in wear protection. Since these are all group PAO or PAO/ester mixed oils, and the new version of syntec that isn't anymore...we can see that the performance decreased. This relates to anyone considering using the oil.

The 5w30 rating that VW speced in the old bulletin is out of date. Since then VW has contracted Castrol to create a 5w40 oil for the dealers to put in cars. So VW also feels a 5w40 is the correct viscousity. This is kinda why some members were asking you to bring yourself up to speed on the current facts that we've learned.




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My Project GTD and diesel page
http://kozmik.guelph.on.ca/gtdproject

Passat1.8tm. Don't leave. You're part of the reason why most of are here.

The issue of manual translation has been raised a few times. My Canadian A3 jetta specifies a 12,000km drain. 7500 miles. And this before the decision to switch to synthetic.

The technical knowledge being debated here is way beyond me, bought I do sense that hairs are being split here.

The issue for me and many TDI owners might come down to this. Oil changes were costing me about 35 bucks cdn with 6-8k km (5000 mile) drain intervals. Synthetic at the dealer, using castrol doubles that cost with the same drain interval recommended by the dealer. I can get Delvac 1 for slightly less than Syntec -thus my oil changes are cheaper by a buck or two.

If I can push the drain to 16,000km (10,000 miles)with Delvac it would seem I'm much better off.

Can I push it that far?

Mr. Passat (if that _is_ your real name ) says:

"Of course, it doesn't hurt that VW specifically recommends it, either. I can't believe how many people are willing to trust that VW engineers a great vehicle, and then think that it is so incompetent that it can't choose a satisfactory oil."

I have no trouble at all believing this, given that:

1) For the '98 New Beetle TDI, VW spec'd an API CD rating, which no longer existed. (It was so obsolete, the API no longer allowed the rating to be used)

2) VW now specs CG-4 in the manual, but tells their dealers to use a CF rated oil.

3) Tells their dealers to use a 5W30 CF synthetic, then changes to 5W40 without any formal notification.

4) VW doesn't specifically recommend Castrol Syntec, as stated. They recommend that a VW part numbered special synthetic be used for warranty paid oil changes. People have figured out that this is a Castrol product, which may or may not be Syntec, and may or may not be something available over the counter. The recommendation was made to dealers only, no notification was sent to owners, so VW obviously expects them to continue following the owner's manual recommendation.

5) VW does not have a history of publishing accurate service recommendations. See also the thread on TDI timing belt service intervals, VW has stated in various places that one should: change at 40K, change at 60K, inspect every 20K - no mandated change. VW does not, as far as I can tell, publish any spec at all for A4 manual transmission fluid, just saying it's there for life (yea, right.) Basically the same for antifreeze, except that there is a VW-only (G12) spec given.

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Mike

I must apoligize to the readers of this forum, I just reread my last message, and I came-off way-miffed and holier-than-thou. I had no intention of leaving in a huff. I need to stop writing stream of conciousness without proof reading before hitting the 'submit reply' button.

Huracan, in Europe, and in the English MY2000 owner's manuals that I've seen, VW recommends ACEA B2 or B3, so your dealer supplied Syntec 5W-40 may still be OK, as might Syntec 5W-50, Valvoline SynPower 5W-40, and Mobil 1 15W-50, all of which are ACEA service A3/B3.

Other fully-synthetic oils with at least a 5W-40 rating, like Havoline Formula3 Synthetic 5W-40, and Penziol Performax 5W-50, probably also meet the spec, even if, like Amsoil, their makers don't go through the trouble to ACEA certify their U.S. products. There might be some good synthetic belnds that pass too, like Valvoline DuraBlend, which is A2 (so maybe also B2?), and Syntec Blend, which, in Europe, sold as GTX Magnatec 10W-40, claims A3/B3 ratings.

Dominique, I don't know if today's TDIs require "special oils"; the only way I'll know for sure is if VW adds B4 to their list of requirements. If that happens, you'll have to use Delvac 1, unless all the synthetic (and Syntec) B3 oil turns out to have been B4 capable all this time. I did a search on AltaVista, as a spot-check, and most oils sold in Europe, including Castrol, Mobil, and even Penzoil(!), that had a B2 or B3 rating also claimed B4. VW may just be formally codifying a performance grade that most oils already met. (Or, they may be forcing makers to upgrade their formulations.)

Did the Mobil rep you spoke to say not to use Mobil 1 in a TDI, of just not to use it where CH-4 is required? I'd be very surprised if they said specifically not to use it in a TDI, as their reps are trained not to ever make any specific recommendations beyond API or ACEA service class.

Do you know for a fact that Syntec has failed GM's wear tests, specifically? That would be interesting, as if it had failed any test, I would have thought it was the heat-transfer test; heat-transfer being something that PAOs are really good at. If you're looking for the absolute highest performance standard, GM4718M may be it (I'd need to know more about the test details first), but some things to consider are: you'll never know for sure if Delvac 1 does any better than Syntec on the wear test, since it's viscosity bars it from ever passing the complete suite; and VW specifies its own minimum performance standards, both VW 505.00 and ACEA B2, exceeding these aren't *necessarily* guaranteed to get you any noticeable benefit. The LS1 has very specific cam-wear problems because it is a pushrod engine operating with high-lift at high rpms. The valvetrain stress in this engine is incredible. As someone else (TooSlick?) noted on another thread, it also lacks an oil cooler. The high-standards required for this application may not result in any noticeable improvement in your application. (Then again, they might, I don't know.)

Cleve, if Delvac 1 is readily available and cheaper than Syntec, that's what I'd use. If I was in my free-oil change period, and the dealer was using Syntec, that's what I'd use. It's not that I always favor the cheapest product, but only when I can't make any clear and significant performance distinction between two products, as in this case. I never meant to imply that Delvac was not a good oil, just that people shouldn't go crazy and drive 200 miles to buy Delvac at $25/gallon, then schedule an immediate oil change to get that dealer Syntec 'crap' out of their engine before catastrophic failure resulted.

HowardZ, there *are* oil certifying bodies beyond the API. One is known as the ACEA, which is a French acronym, roughly translated as "the European automobile manufacturers association." VW is an ACEA member, and as such has great influence on setting ACEA specifications. VW has *no* influence on API specifications, which is why I trust VW's ACEA requirements (B2 or B3) more than I trust the API requirements (either CF or CH-4), which are inexact translations of the ACEA specs, at best.

And no, I don't work for, own company stock in, of have any financial motivation to defend Castrol. I am merely trying to educate people like yourself, and to learn something from the educated, like Dominique, TooSlick, etc.

msauve, I don't know why VW spec'd CD oil, maybe they thought it was sufficient. CF is an acceptable replacement for CD, so CD's obsolescence shouldn't be a problem. New API specsaren't necessarily superior replacements for older ones, despite what the API claims. Case in point, API SH had a high-temperature deposit test that was deleted from API SJ, which is why many oils still list API SH alongside SJ, and why many makers of turbocharged engines still specify SH.

VW isn't telling dealers to use CF oil, it's telling them to use a special Syntec, with an ACEA B3 (and perhaps B4) rating.

5W-30 may have been the best VW could do in the interim before arranging for special production of 5W-40.

Maintainence recommendations periodically change, based on new service data. Typically, when a manufacturer changes recommendations this frequently, and without fanfare, it means the change is minor and not likely to impact many owners. It's more of a fine tuning than an "Oh $#|+! I really should have done that earlier!" That said, I always try to keep up to date on the newest recommended proceedures.

I realize that it would take me a lifetime (or at least the liftime of my car) to learn enough about why the VW engineers make the recommendations that they do for me to be able to competently second guess them. That is why I always try to follow manufacturer recommendations, unless I am presented with overwhelming evidence of their inadequacy. I have thus far seen no hard evidence, let alone overwhelming evidence, of dealer provided oil's inadequacy. That said, if you think you can get a better oil (Delvac 1) at a cheaper price (out of warranty), of course you would go for that.


[This message has been edited by Passat1.8Tm (edited December 05, 1999).]

When I look at this issue I see plenty of fudging of the arguments on all sides, for example, everybody that points at their owner's manual and says "only CH-4, my manual says so" scoffs when I pointed out that the manual also states "VW 505.00" IS OK for the TDI, which is listed on the Castrol oil the dealer is installing in the TDIs.

Also the ACEA B series ratings are self certifying, which means that if the companies follow all of the other requirments they can put the "B1,2,3,or 4" on their products as long as they have the documentation to show the product meets or exceeds the required testing specs.

I have a funny feeling that it won't be long before the VW special Syntec will have CF-4, CH-4, and B-3 B-4 on the bottle. Changing labels is an expensive/time consuming proposition as anyone who has worked in manufacturing will tell you. Getting marketing, the art department, legal, management, and R&D, all on the same page is a real job. Just because an oil does not have a specific rating on its bottle doesn't mean it doesn't meet that spec, just that there are a lot of other issues to investigate.

Reading its label doesn't make one oil better or worse than another, it just means that we are sometimes compairing apples to oranges and sometimes apples to apples, and we cant tell which is which just by looking at them!

JeffT, what does it mean for the ACEA specs to be "self certifying?" Does this mean that oil manufacturers can perform their own, unreviewed testing, and use that as a basis for making a claim to particular ACEA service, kind of like Amsoil does with the API? I thought I had read something about the "self certification" process before, and it disturbed me to think that no one was checking up on companies that claim ACEA compliance.

Self certifying means that the manufacturer can do their own certification process, but they are subject to periodic review and audits.

For example, they would be in big trouble if they put the ACEA spec on their product and didn't do the proper testing and documentation. But as long as they follow proper documented R&D, manufacturing, testing, and packaging prodecures their product can carry the designated spec, i.e. B-4, on the label.

This is similar to how the CE mark is administered. If you make radios that carry a CE mark, each radio doesn't need to be tested, just that each radio was manufactured under all the proper procedures, using all the proper components.

Of course the self certification process is tied to field testing, clinical trials, and monitoring of customer complaints, etc too.

I am now cross-eyed from reading all this stuff. ALL the diesel rated oils down here in Cochise County, Arizona are 15W-40. Mobil Delvac 1 and Chevron Delo synthetic are unavailable. The only diesel rated synthetic I could find was Royal Purple, which is made in Texas and has all three of the diesel "C" ratings. It's 15W-40 and I change oil every 5,000 miles. So I put it in (or, rather, had the dealer put it in at my first 5,000 mile service.)

Because it gets quite hot down here and not very cold, is the 15W-40 OK?

Further, at 5,000 mile change intervals, can I just use the Chevron Delo 400 (non synthetic or Shell Rotella?

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Ted White, Bisbee,AZ
'99.5 Black Jetta TDI
'00 Suzuki SV650

Blugg,

IMHO yes you can use the 15w40 in your climate. I'd use the delo personally over the rotella (group II vs group I oil). Plus the delo's cheaper to boot.

Passat,

Jefft explained the self certifying process well, the amsoil ( and redline ) issue is a little different. Since the API wants oils to be submitted to them for testing ( and retesting), this is the only option for the companies that wish to participate. Amsoil and redline are claiming that the oils would meet the ratings if they were submitted. Tooslick has pointed out that Amsoil uses Lubrizol to do their testing. I have no information on redline however in regards to testing.

I think another issue in regards to oils and our use of it is that we perhaps may not be 'normal' consumers. Compared to other North Americans, and compred to Europeans.

The B3 rating and the 10K mile service times are the same here and in Europe (comparing the NA A4 manual to the my2000 manual in europe). This is just my opinion here, but I think the european consumer doesn't plan on owning their car as long as us. They don't have as far to travel (cities are closer to each other, and they drive less then we do). Also they also tend to not care about the cars as much as we do (maintenance wise). In europe they don't have an equivelent to Pep boys, and they don't tend to work on there own cars. Being a mechanic is a respected occupation, but being a backyard mechanic is frowned upon...

This is why I take the european service intervals with a grain of salt. I plan on owning the car longer...and I think most ppl who buy diesels in North America are similar in this way. We don't want to know what an adequate maintenance program is, we want to know how we can maintain the cars to last longer then normal, since we plan to keep the cars longer then normal. The same can be said for japan. In japan an engine cannot not be resold, or reused, which is why they are sold to other countries when cars are wrecked. Since they have such a disposable attitude to engines, they tend to recommend really long drain times on the same engines that have 1/4 the drain times recommend over here by the same manufacturer.

The mobil rep understood that I was talking about a TDI engine, but didn't recommend the delvac because of a VW related issue. He specifically said that he was instructed to point out to consumers that Mobil does extensive testing of the delvac line with diesels. They do no testing with the Mobil 1 and diesels. Because of the testing they do, they know what they will warrentee and what they won't. So without any data for the mobil 1, not only do they not recommend it, they can't warrenty it. To them its not considered a correct application of the oil. This is not unusual. Companies warrenty things they have tested, so they have some background information so they are not warrentying something blindly. This doesn't mean that it won't work in a diesel. They just don't know how well it will.

All I know about the GM and syntec thing is that GM told syntec they couldn't display the rating anymore with the new formula. I took that to mean the new oil did not meet the spec anymore. Castrol had the rating before, so I assumed they would have wanted to at least attempt the test again. Since this is an assumption it is possible they just simply decided not to go for the test again, but that doesn't seem likely.

Regarding the ACEA and API. If you actually look at the tests that are used, you notice that they use many of the same tests!
http://24.112.110.104/gtdproject/fluids/p5.jpg http://24.112.110.104/gtdproject/fluids/p4.jpg http://www.acea.be/GasEng5.htm http://www.acea.be/GasEng6.htm http://www.acea.be/GasEng7.htm

The ACEA tests cover a lot more issues then the API CH-4 or even the EO-L plus or CES 20076, but I just find it interesting that both bodies rely heavly on ASTM and SAE tests, along with tests created by engine manufacturers. So the API isn't doing to shabby a job once you examine the details.

Passat, I'm glad you want to stay. I too am learning this stuff, and unlike Twoslick I don't have years of experience to help me. I really appreciate hearing what others have learned, because I really have an interest in this stuff. You obviously have done some research, and I am looking forward to sharing notes with you in this forum!

We've all disagreed with one another in this place from time to time, but more importantly is I've noticed that the group of people here are mature enough to move past that and we've learned a lot from one another. Thanks guys...I've learned a lot from you all!


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My Project GTD and diesel page http://kozmik.guelph.on.ca/gtdproject


[This message has been edited by Dominique Cormann (edited December 05, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Dominique Cormann (edited December 05, 1999).]