odd questions about diesel

tbones

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Hi gang,

What's the difference between D2 and the red dyed off-road diesel?

I buy fuel for my diesel powered sailboat at the fuel dock, but it's cheaper to purchase at the local filling station.

Additionally, I'd prefer clear diesel, as I can see when it's getting full of contamination. ( a constant problem on sailboats)

Is the off-road stuff the same as red dyed home hearing oil? Do you folks in New England ever need to go get diesel at the station to keep your house warm when you run low?

Thanks for your comments!

Regards,
Steve
 
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Windex

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Depends on the refinery. Dyed diesel is mostly the same as on-road, save of course that it is not taxed. Another factor to think about is the storage tank - regular fill-up stations have good turnover, whereas not all off-road storage tanks get the same - diesel might be sitting for a while, or sit in older tanks with some water or debris.

Enforcement authorities take a very dim view of dyed diesel being used on-road, and the dye is designed to stain - your clear lines will be reddish for several tanks afterward.

Best to stick with the clear diesel.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
The red dye is just to show no road tax was collected on the sale of that fuel.

Since most all fuel (road taxed or not) comes from the same sources, it is generally otherwise the exact same stuff. However, you can usually check with your local station to see where it is sourced from if you really want to know.

The dyed fuel at the MFA station where we get our fuel for our tractors and dump truck used on the farm has a biodiesel blend added as well as the dye. But the Casey's across town does not.
 

iluvmydiesels

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is there a 'clear diesel' i get green dyed diesel, clear means kerosene.
dont mind contamination (*as you say it/or as you (may) think you can see (it) ), 100% of the time use a filter. if on the other hand you have a contamination worry, get fuel from a better station. high volume turn over would be the most obvious.
of course the boat dock has a higher price for you. not only is it much easier and convenient to fill up there, how many x gallon jugs do you feel you can both fill up at the car pump and carry to dock. not to say pour into boat tank. wheew thats a work out as well.
that red stuff (^like said) dyes you tank, lines and tells youve avoided the tax, actually for that (relatively) small added tax price, its quite a charge, a lawyer will help, oh and cost that much more,,.
 

kjclow

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To answer the OP's original question, you can use either product in your sailboat or home heating oil. The required extra work is up to you. You shouldn't use the dyed fuel in your car because the fines are fairly steep if caught.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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ULSD over the road diesel is not the same as home heating oil. Home heating oil has a far higher sulfur content than ULSD, although I forget the number. It's not a good idea to use home heating oil in any diesel automobile (or boat, for that matter) because of the potential for intake clogging. It's an especially bad idea for cars with DPFs.

When you buy diesel at a fuel dock you're paying a premium for the convenience of having the fuel where the boat is. Plus those docks (especially here in New England) are seasonal businesses, so they charge more since they're closed 8 or 9 months of the year.
 

Windex

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is there a 'clear diesel' i get green dyed diesel, clear means kerosene. ,,.
This is not the case. I have filled from several locations in the US and Canada where the diesel (from a name brand station) has no tint to it.

The greenish tint is common, but no tint does not mean kerosene. :rolleyes:
 

kjclow

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ULSD over the road diesel is not the same as home heating oil. Home heating oil has a far higher sulfur content than ULSD, although I forget the number.
I thought even home heating oil was being driven to ultra low sulfur.
 

aja8888

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I thought even home heating oil was being driven to ultra low sulfur.
It is, but it is a state driven process"

Why Are Refiners Producing More ULSHO?

In 2006, with certain exceptions, refiners were required to produce vehicle-fuel diesel with a sulfur content of no more than 15 ppm. But the EPA mandate only applied to vehicle fuels, and because it is more expensive to process ultra-low sulfur diesel, the improved fuel wasn’t immediately marketed for home use. Many states in the Northeast, where most heating-oil consumption occurs, began implementing state laws that mirror the federal diesel-fuel standard for vehicles.

In 2012, New York, which at the time had over a million households using heating oil, was the first northeastern state to set a home heating oil sulfur content standard to 15 ppm. Massachusetts, New Jersey and Vermont followed suit with a les- stringent 500 ppm standard in 2014, but are all going to require ULSHO by 2018.

In 2016, Maine instituted a 50 ppm million standard but will also require ULSHO by 2018. There has been proposed legislation in other northeastern states, and in time, ULSHO may be the only type of heating oil allowed to run vehicles and warm homes. So, in addition to contributing to the global effort to produce eco-friendly, clean-burning fuels, refiners are finding fewer domestic markets for non-ULSHO.
http://blog.smarttouchenergy.com/ultra-low-sulfur-heating-oil-and-premium-fuels
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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So in MA home heating oil now has the same amount of sulfur as diesel did before ULSD. One benefit of ULSD is that intake clogging has pretty much become a thing of the past.
 

Windex

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So in MA home heating oil now has the same amount of sulfur as diesel did before ULSD. One benefit of ULSD is that intake clogging has pretty much become a thing of the past.
Interesting - ULSD was implemented in Oct 2006 in Canada. I have seen a few ALHs and AHUs (most prone) with intake buildup after a complete cleaning earlier in its life. If ULSD were the determining factor, the intake would not clog again after the first cleaning.

I think reduced EGR action would curtail intake clogging more than ULSD.:)
 

tbones

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Hi all,

thanks for the replies...

So, to recap:

-Dyed off-road diesel is the same as non-dyed on-road diesel (except for the dye)...
this is good, I AM willing to get the street-taxed diesel and schlep it to my boat... (if you think a clogged filter in your car on the side of the road is a PITA, try dealing with it on a boat,in a storm with 40 knots of wind...AND you're in a channel with rocks and docks on either side of you... I don't want to do THAT ever again!) so ,yeah, I'll happily schlep the Jerry cans on see-through street diesel to the boat... no problem!

-HHO is also dyed red... but MAY NOT be the same quality as off road diesel... hmm... as mentioned, it would seem uneconomical for a processor to do two types of similar fuels...

- You CAN use D2 from an on-road fuel pump in your home oil furnace... but probably NOT wise to use it the other way around.


ok thanks everybody... that clears up a lot!

regards,
Steve
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Interesting - ULSD was implemented in Oct 2006 in Canada. I have seen a few ALHs and AHUs (most prone) with intake buildup after a complete cleaning earlier in its life. If ULSD were the determining factor, the intake would not clog again after the first cleaning.
I think reduced EGR action would curtail intake clogging more than ULSD.:)
I think driving habits have more to do with intake clogging than anything else, even fuel quality. I have NEVER had to clean an intake on any TDI after purchase and initial cleaning.
 

ToddA1

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- You CAN use D2 from an on-road fuel pump in your home oil furnace... but probably NOT wise to use it the other way around.

If anything, I'd think the inverse would be true. HHO is a cleaner fuel. The extra sulfur would be beneficial for lubrication.

I've run diesel in a torpedo heater and the results were hit or miss. Sometimes the fumes were pretty bad.

Running K1 was always better (other than the price) and I recall the heater also sounding different.

I've seen heaters advertised as running on diesel or K1, so I'm unsure how they do it. I've upgraded to propane.

If contamination is the main issue, why not use a biocide? If you've already had algae growth, you likely still have it, unless you had the fuel and tank polished.

-Todd
 

kjclow

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The higher sulfur content does help lubricity mainly because of all the surfactants that get stripped out when they hydrolyze the diesel to remove the sulfur. It is not a cleaner burning fuel. Just think of the thick black smoke you used to see out of any and all diesel trucks. There may still be some out there that belch, but it's a lot better now. The higher sulfur content is also a great way to kill the DPF on the CR diesels.
 

ToddA1

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What are you rebutting? HHO is not a cleaner burning fuel or more sulfur in fuel is not cleaner burning?

As for the black smoke, I see that as over fueling. I don't know how rigs run, but if their fuel mapping is not optimized, you'll get that belch. You don't see the black smoke when they're cruising, usually just under initial load.

My wagon will do the same when I jump on it.

-Todd
 

kjclow

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Higher sulfur fuel is dirtier burning fuel regardless of where and how it's burned. There's a reason it's been mandated out. Ultra low sulfur gasoline is just around the corner.
 

iluvmydiesels

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It is not a cleaner burning fuel. Just think of the thick black smoke you used to see out of any and all diesel trucks. There may still be some out there that belch, but it's a lot better now.
thats what you say seeing from the eye. what does that have to do with anything. wasnt almost all that smoke, whether extra or not, just about 'inert'. so what does an eye have to do with the bottom line. and now a days how many emissions and controls are on these diesels, how is any of it 'really' better. its just the illusion society has put there, you see you believe. its easier than knowing more. and right in front of you, and your senses,(supposedly). also take for instance gas vehicles, you almost all times see no smoke, does that mean anything? look at all the emissions and then thru the years how many controls have been added.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
ULSD even made my 1991 normally aspirated indirect injected diesel Jetta run cleaner. No, not scientific, but less visible smoke and less smell. And that was from the LSD stuff, which came around here in the late '80s. Before that, it was really awful stuff. THAT is where all the nasty black diesel images came from.
 

vanbcguy

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Home heating oil may not have the lubricity package they add to ULSD either... Many additive packages are mixed in the tanker truck (ie the dye itself for instance). If the batch is only going to be used as heating oil there's no reason to worry about lubricity.

Back to the on road / off road thing, most truck stops sell untaxed marked fuel for refrigeration trucks to use in their coolers, and for trucks with APUs, etc. It would be completely legal to purchase that for use in a sailboat and will be cheaper still.

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk
 

ToddA1

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Higher sulfur fuel is dirtier burning fuel regardless of where and how it's burned. There's a reason it's been mandated out. Ultra low sulfur gasoline is just around the corner.

I can agree with this, although I don't know what it has to do with the thread. The thread did go off track, though....

I doubt the OP's sailboat is emissions checked.

-Todd
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
All new engines sold here, from chainsaws to marine engines, have an emissions compliance label. They may not get "checked" after the fact, but they do need to meet certain requirements before sale.

And the quality of fuel is a key part of these engines being able to meet these requirements.

Lead as an octane enhancer went away from gasoline because it ruined catalysts. Sulfur has gone away (well, down to a VERY low level) from diesel because it ruined DPFs. Sulfur will be dropping in gasoline because those engines will be getting particle filters soon as well.

Keep in mind, this does not necessarily mean engines that do not have such devices cannot run on the newer fuels. But, in some cases (like alcohol content in newer gasolines) can have a detrimental effect on certain fuel system components that were not necessarily designed to deal with it. In some cases it becomes a constant problem, in other cases it is a one-time remedy and it is not likely to become a problem ever again.
 

tbones

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I can agree with this, although I don't know what it has to do with the thread. The thread did go off track, though....
I doubt the OP's sailboat is emissions checked.
-Todd
Hi gang,
No, my sailboat is not omissions checked…
Thanks for the continued thread… I am enjoying reading people's comments here!
regards Steve
 
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