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General Automotive General automotive discussion. This is intended to be a discussion about other not VW and Diesel cars you may have or interested in.

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Old August 21st, 2017, 02:38   #3001
bhtooefr
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Like I said at the end, it's not growth, it's plants that used to be in other regions being reclassified as being part of NWPP.
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Old August 21st, 2017, 07:20   #3002
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Also consider that these maps are based only on greenhouse gas emissions. This doesn't consider the significant pollution reduction that EV's bring. The ability to better deal with emissions such as NOx and SOx at a central power plant vs a car's tailpipe mean that actual smog generating pollutants per mile are FAR less for EV's than any other option.
Most studies don't support that conclusion.

A 2009 report by the National Academy of Science projected that full life-cycle emissions from BEV would produce more non-climate damages than diesel, and epecially biodiesel:





http://www8.nationalacademies.org/on...RecordID=12794 (full report available at link on top of press release; image is Figure 3-7,page 212 of full report)


A 2014 study by Tessum ("Life cycle air quality impacts of conventional and alternative light-duty transportation in the United States." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, vol. 111 no. 52, 1849018495, http://www.pnas.org/content/111/52/18490.full ) shows that BEV runs from the cleanest to by far the dirtiest with respect to non-GHG damages, depending on the electricity generation mix:




(note: EV WWS = wind, water, solar electricity mix)



Based on the latest version of the GREET model, here are relative non-GHG damages of the GM vehicle technologies:


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Old August 21st, 2017, 13:12   #3003
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The only problem I see with those models is that they don't account for the fact that the average EV owner is certainly getting a far greater percentage of their electricity from clean, renewable sources than the national average for the grid. Pretty much every EV owner I know of in my area has significant PV installations for instance. And the national grid gets cleaner every year, so 8 year old data may not be very accurate today.
I think you need to consider an area somewhat larger than in your area. Further, who is "the average" EV owner? One that lives in California, or one that lives in Michigan?

To that point, take another look at the map on the previous page. It states:

"The 73 MPG U.S. average is a sales-weighted average based on where EVs were sold in 2016."

Also, look at what wxman posted again. One study is from 2014, the GREET model is from 2017.
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Old August 21st, 2017, 13:29   #3004
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Although, AFAIK, GREET is using 2014 eGRID data...
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Old August 21st, 2017, 15:36   #3005
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I think you need to consider an area somewhat larger than in your area. Further, who is "the average" EV owner? One that lives in California, or one that lives in Michigan?
To that point, take another look at the map on the previous page. It states:
"The 73 MPG U.S. average is a sales-weighted average based on where EVs were sold in 2016."
Also, look at what wxman posted again. One study is from 2014, the GREET model is from 2017.
Actually, the biggest issue I have with the GREET models is that they completely ignore carbon emissions. Which seems pretty farcical.
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Old August 21st, 2017, 16:13   #3006
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Although, AFAIK, GREET is using 2014 eGRID data...
You're correct, but I used the "User Defined" option in GREET for the electricity generation mix, which I obtained from the latest EIA data (used Q2 2016 - Q1 2017).


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Actually, the biggest issue I have with the GREET models is that they completely ignore carbon emissions. Which seems pretty farcical.
It does calculate GHG emissions. I just didn't include them in the non-GHG damages in the preceding graphic. The current U.S. grid mix does have lower GHG emissions for EV, as suggested in the UCS report (map) posted earlier.

Actually, I believe UCS used GREET to calculate regional GHG emissions in those reports, IIRC.
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Old August 21st, 2017, 16:23   #3007
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You're correct, but I used the "User Defined" option in GREET for the electricity generation mix, which I obtained from the latest EIA data (used Q2 2016 - Q1 2017).




It does calculate GHG emissions. I just didn't include them in the non-GHG damages in the preceding graphic. The current U.S. grid mix does have lower GHG emissions for EV, as suggested in the UCS report (map) posted earlier.

Actually, I believe UCS used GREET to calculate regional GHG emissions in those reports, IIRC.
Very good. I think we can all take comfort in the fact that PV and wind power generation is growing at an incredibly fast rate. And hopefully coal power will continue to diminish at a steady rate as well. I think the models should look much different in 5 years time when EV sales start to really take off.
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Old Yesterday, 09:24   #3008
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The new VW electric microbus coming in 2022 looks pretty cool. Should be a little faster than the original with 369 hp. http://www.autoweek.com/article/gree...an-coming-2022
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Old Yesterday, 10:32   #3009
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But this is part of the reasoning why people are driving around in big 1/2 ton and even 3/4 and 1 tons as daily drivers. And like others have said, if I just dropped $50k to $60k on a truck, I'm not going to buy a car just to save gas the rest of the time. The tax, insurance, license, and purchase price of a second vehicle would buy a lot of fuel for the gas hog.
Insurance rates are usually calculated based on annual miles driven. In addition to insurance, a $60,000 truck is going to depreciate a lot more $/mile than a little commuter car. So it isn't just fuel savings... it's fuel, insurance, depreciation, cost of maintenance, consumables such as tires and brakes, etc. Add all of those things up and you're saving a lot by daily driving something other than your tow rig. Of course, this all depends on your own situation - Michigan residents pay a lot more in insurance than Virginia residents, for example.

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If and when we are in the market for a new (not used clunker) car I think an electric would fit at least one of our commutes, if not both. Interesting idea though - who has TWO electric vehicles and has the electric service to handle charging both? Both on capacity of wiring and actual charging hardware.
We have two electric vehicles in our house right now (soon to be three) and we added charging infrastructure for both. Adding the additional power was straight-forward and we have spare capacity available in our panel for the Tesla that we will be getting soon. Even with all three vehicles charging at night with the house air conditioning and the electric dryer running, we will be using only 125 amps out of our 200 amp service, which is well within the 80% margin of safety. YMMV depending on how your home is wired and how you use energy. If we were closer to the limit, we could easily stagger our charge times so that all three vehicles don't charge simultaneously.
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Old Yesterday, 11:25   #3010
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Insurance rates are usually calculated based on annual miles driven. ... - Michigan residents pay a lot more in insurance than Virginia residents, for example.
That would be a mostly no. Insurance rates are initially based on population density. My insurance doubled when I moved from South Bend, IN to Charlotte, NC. Same cars, same company.

Second would be cost of the vehicle and costs of repairs. A $60k vehicle is going to cost more to insure than a $30K vehicle. The F150 aluminum box is more expensive than the C1500 steel box primarily due to the Ford taillights being on piece. (from Car and Driver report)

Third piece is the state you live in. In your example, Michigan is a no fault state, which means the opposite. All parties in the accident are given some portion of the fault and therefore the repair costs. Means that, on average, you'll end up filing more claims with your insurance company. More claims, higher rates.

In over 30 years of insuring vehicles, I've never been asked for my annual mileage. Yes, I have category deductions, such as living within 5 miles of my work place. Doesn't stop me from putting over 20k miles on a year.
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Old Yesterday, 11:36   #3011
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Great news! We don't need no stinking electric cars!

According to the "Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung"

Synthetic fuel to save the combustion engine
The German National Academy of Science and Engineering argues that the combustion engine is in line with climate goals if it is driven by artificial fuels, which release hardly any particulate matter or nitrogen
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Old Yesterday, 11:46   #3012
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In over 30 years of insuring vehicles, I've never been asked for my annual mileage. Yes, I have category deductions, such as living within 5 miles of my work place. Doesn't stop me from putting over 20k miles on a year.
I get asked for annual mileage estimates for my cars every time I renew.
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Old Yesterday, 11:51   #3013
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In over 30 years of insuring vehicles, I've never been asked for my annual mileage. Yes, I have category deductions, such as living within 5 miles of my work place. Doesn't stop me from putting over 20k miles on a year.
Every car I've insured, I've been asked for my estimated annual mileage on that car.
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The really cool ToofTek made "Emperor's Clothes" injector fork risers only worked until someone pointed out that there wasn't any thing there.
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Old Yesterday, 11:59   #3014
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That would be a mostly no. Insurance rates are initially based on population density. My insurance doubled when I moved from South Bend, IN to Charlotte, NC. Same cars, same company.

Second would be cost of the vehicle and costs of repairs. A $60k vehicle is going to cost more to insure than a $30K vehicle. The F150 aluminum box is more expensive than the C1500 steel box primarily due to the Ford taillights being on piece. (from Car and Driver report)

Third piece is the state you live in. In your example, Michigan is a no fault state, which means the opposite. All parties in the accident are given some portion of the fault and therefore the repair costs. Means that, on average, you'll end up filing more claims with your insurance company. More claims, higher rates.

In over 30 years of insuring vehicles, I've never been asked for my annual mileage. Yes, I have category deductions, such as living within 5 miles of my work place. Doesn't stop me from putting over 20k miles on a year.
Sorry, I shouldn't have said that the primary factor is mileage --- you're right that it's vehicle cost to repair and population density. But mileage driven absolutely factors into your premiums... I've routinely adjust my USAA coverage based on the annual mileage each vehicle gets, which adjusts my bill. 10,000 miles in our Passat costs a lot more than 10,000 miles in our Fiat, and the difference would be even more significant in something more expensive like a new Ford F-350 or Chevy Silverado. Insuring a cheap commuter could be completely offset by the mileage reduction on a luxury "tow vehicle," especially if that commuter doesn't require full coverage. Then add the other factors such as fuel savings, maintenance savings, and depreciation... you see where I'm going with this.

Michigan has the highest auto insurance rates in the country (by far), even higher than DC with its higher population density, worse traffic, and higher accident rate. http://www.insure.com/car-insurance/...nce-rates.html

Anyway, we've digressed quite a bit from the topic, although I think it's important to dispel the myth that a luxury tow vehicle needs to be a daily driver in order to be financially viable.
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Old Yesterday, 12:08   #3015
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I get asked for annual mileage estimates for my cars every time I renew.

Me too, although I have never had them "check". Of course, I've never crashed a car either, so maybe that is why. I think it is something they want to have to give at least a small idea of what your potential for an accident is. Stands to reason if you drive 50k miles a year, you would be twice as likely to be involved in a crash than if you drove 25k miles a year, assuming everything else was the same.

Usually, though, the highest number they allow before going to "unlimited" is 7500, at least that has been my experience. So we almost always have to go to unlimited because we live so far from anywhere aside Walmart and a few local places. Sprinter will pass 7500 miles before we've had it a year (we are already at almost 5k miles after 8 months) and that is a car that does not even get driven every day and often sits for 5+ says at a stretch.
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