DSG - 1st Gear Clutching

I recently purchased a 2015 Golf DSG and I'm loving the upgrade from my 2003 Golf TDI. I'm trying to figure out when the mechatronics is clutching or partial engagement when in manual mode and in 1st gear.

Background:
I'm coming from my 2003 Golf with a 5-speed manual. I have 270k miles on the original clutch. One of the front rotors cracked at 40k miles and the dealer performed a complete brake job. I'm still on the second set of brakes. I just replaced the rear brakes at 260k miles. I consider myself a spirited driver (neither slow or racing all the time, but a little of both) and most of my miles are in the hills. With that said, I know how to drive with three pedals.

My Questions:
1) My driveway has a steep, switchback turn in it. I'm trying to take the turn as slow as possible while allowing the clutch pack to remain fully engaged; preventing the mechatronics from slipping the clutch pack while I'm slowing down for the turn. At what RPM does the DSG begin to disengage the clutch pack?

2) I also commute in the hills with stop and go traffic, so it is a similar situation as my driveway. In my '03, I would keep a running gap between me and the car ahead while climbing the hill in traffic. When the car ahead was at a complete stop or inching along, I would let the engine idle (foot off the pedals) in 1st gear and crawl up the hill while closing the gap I made. This makes some impatient slushbox drives mad, but I have 270k miles on the original clutch How do I drive the DSG in 1st gear and in a similar way, crawling up the hill while making sure the clutch pack is fully engaged?
It would be great to have an indicator or readout of the percentage of clutch pack engagement. Is this possible with a scangauge unit, or something similar?

Small amount of math and observation of tach and speedo needles is required.

I think you have an auxiliary display that will give a digital speed readout; this might help more than using the needles. Likewise scangauge RPM display - if you have a scangauge, perform the following experiment with RPM and road speed both digitally displayed at the same time.

Perform the following in a suitable open and level area (not in traffic). With transmission in neutral, note the idling speed. Then manually select 1st gear and then roll forward and hold, as steadily as possible, double what the idling speed is. In this situation you KNOW the clutch is fully engaged. Note what the road speed is. That's the road speed at double the engine idling speed.

Now, let it coast back, still in 1st gear, and see what happens under level-ground creep conditions at idle. As long as the road speed and engine speed are in lock-step proportion to each other, you know the clutch is not slipping. Half the speed noted above and half the RPM (i.e. normal idling RPM) means it's not slipping.

I think that creep speed in 1st gear at idle is whatever the full-clutch-engagement idle speed is, but the above experiment will reveal this.

As long as you are just puttering along, not trying to accelerate hard, it is going to be trying to minimize clutch slippage - basically it's going to be engaged as long as you are moving faster than the 1st-gear creep speed is.

I wouldn't overthink it. For your driveway, just put it in first and drive to see where it feels most comfortable. As for creeping in traffic, play around a bit with manual in 1st and see how that feels. Again, you'll be able to tel quickly what feels normal and you can check with what you find using GoFaster's techniques.

Push it to the right to help keep it in the gear you have it in. It won't prevent it from overriding at extremes, but may be just enough to get it to stay in first for you. This goes for the way up and the way down.

I have observed that there seems to be some "short-termed memory" when I use the tiptronic to put it in the gear I want, even if it is in left (D) mode. It pauses upshift when I select a gear when it is in D. In Tiptronic, it should do better. You may find that 2nd gear is good and fully in gear (clutch not engaging), if you can control it.

we also have a very steep driveway, the Alltrack tries to take it in 2nd if I don't come to a complete stop, it's very painful, 1-1100rpms doing 3-5 mph. I've since either come to a stop and take it in first or switch over to manual and shift to first and climb up the driveway at a sane rpm.

The 02E DSG (like most all dual-clutch type autoboxes) has a VERY LOW ratio first gear. It is essentially a "creeper" gear, since there is no fluid torque converter to take care of that task. So it is fully engaged pretty quickly. On level ground, with the engine at idle, transmission in D, if you just take your foot off the brake, it will engage 1st gear and the #1 clutch pack 100% in about a second.

This is why they tend to do 2nd gear starts when doing a rolling stop at a stop sign. Because 1st gear is really just TOO low for that.

I'd not overthink it too much. Despite my early predictions of VAG's DSG being a complete fail, they've actually proven to be pretty good. The early cars' shift mapping was a bit odd, garnering them the moniker 'Dorky Spastic Gearbox' in VAG tech circles, but the later ones are MUCH improved. And they are well mated to the CR TDIs. The 02E almost for sure will need a DMF replacement at some point and time, but I would not let that worry you any. Plus I think the better engine management of the CR engine allows for smoother engine operation with may make the DMF last longer.

oilhammer said:

The 02E DSG (like most all dual-clutch type autoboxes) has a VERY LOW ratio first gear.

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That may be true in general but the '15 has exceptionally tall gearing compared to previous TDIs and other 02E, and I've noticed the clutch slipping quite a bit in stop and go traffic. It seems to want to idle at 7-10mph, anything less than that it's slipping.

just my observation.

I have not driven a lot of the '15 diesels, but the few that I have I did not notice anything particularly different. You can view the clutch duty cycles somewhere in the M-unit's data, I forget where though. The K1 clutch is controlled by the N215 Pressure Control Valve 1. The K1 clutch pressure is monitored by Pressure Sensor G193.

It has more aggressive modulation when the ATF is cold, for obvious reasons. Conventional slushboxes do that too. And where a conventional slushbox may back off torque converter clutch engagement to allow for its slippage to warm the ATF faster, the DSG may do the same thing by clutch slippage since that is really the ONLY place in the transmission where any amount of substantial heat would occur. This is especially true with the slow-to-warm diesels. Plus, many (most?) of the newer 02Es have a thermostat in the coolant line to the ATF cooler, to aid further in letting them warm up.

If I owned a DSG and found that it had programming to slip the clutch to warm the the ATF, I would be pissed. I hope that's not the case.

Only DSG in the family is in Mom's EOS, but thankfully she does very few miles per year.

Why would it piss you off if it had a strategy to help get better fuel economy and lower emissions and make the components last longer? All cars do that, in one way or another. The engine's thermostat is there in large part for that very reason.

Cold fluids, engine oil, ATF, whatever, are NOT "good". Anything that gets them up to operable ideal temps is a good thing. Most newer automatic transmissions employ such strategies, this is not VAG specific, not DSG specific.

Given the fact that the 02E has proven to be pretty reliable and pretty durable, I'd say whatever VAG is doing, they are doing it correctly.

oilhammer said:

Why would it piss you off if it had a strategy to help get better fuel economy and lower emissions and make the components last longer? All cars do that, in one way or another. The engine's thermostat is there in large part for that very reason.

Cold fluids, engine oil, ATF, whatever, are NOT "good". Anything that gets them up to operable ideal temps is a good thing. Most newer automatic transmissions employ such strategies, this is not VAG specific, not DSG specific.

Given the fact that the 02E has proven to be pretty reliable and pretty durable, I'd say whatever VAG is doing, they are doing it correctly.

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I get it, cold fluid bad.

There is little to no detrimental effect or wear when a TCM avoids TCC lockup when cold to prolong fluid shear in an effort to bring trans fluid temps up faster.

Doing the same in an oil-bath clutch like on the DSG adds incremental wear to a wear part, specifically the clutch friction material.

The DSG clutch is a wear part with a finite lifespan. the stator/rotor (not the TCC friction surfaces) in a traditional convertor are not a wear part per-se if kept within normal operating parameters.

I can hold my manual-transmission on a gentle hill quite easily by slipping the clutch.

I don't for obvious reasons, as the car is equipped with brakes to accomplish the same task.

While there is no obvious alternative to heat up the DSG fluid (introduce DSG fluid GP's?), slipping a clutch to do so is a poor solution IMHO.

Wet clutches generally slip to some degree a lot of the time, it is not only doubtful, it is pretty proven in the 02E's case that any slippage must be pretty minimal for wear. Because if 02E clutch pack wear was "a thing", I'd be doing them all the time. And I don't. I have done a couple from excessive input shaft spline damage due to the driver wanting to see just how long they could go on a bad DMF, and a couple from damage from wrong fluid (causing a really bad chatter, that would not go away).

Only one I have ever replaced was from actually being "worn out", and it was on a 330k mile heavily modded BRM (car made, a guess, maybe a solid 180hp).

That is a VERY GOOD track record. I just had another one in last week at 405k miles for a timing belt. Original, untouched DSG (is on its third DMF).

Motorcycles with "auto clutches" use a wet pack clutch stack that looks pretty much like a tiny version of the 02E's pack (albeit only one "half"), and they tend to last a pretty long time too. And they slip as a normal method of operation. So long as they use the correct fluid, and changed as needed, they work fine.

You also have to remember, the clutch engagement strategy HAS to be different for cold ATF, otherwise the thing would slam and shudder on take off. If this strategy also has the side effect of heating of the ATF a bit, then it is a win-win. You get a nice smooth engagement even when cold, and the ATF gets up to temp a little quicker.

I'd not worry one bit about it, I really wouldn't.

I would be MORE pissed about the fuel system blow torching your turbocharger to get the EGTs up for a warm catalyst and DPF. Now THAT could be an issue.

oilhammer said:

Despite my early predictions of VAG's DSG being a complete fail, they've actually proven to be pretty good. The early cars' shift mapping was a bit odd, garnering them the moniker 'Dorky Spastic Gearbox' in VAG tech circles, but the later ones are MUCH improved. And they are well mated to the CR TDIs. The 02E almost for sure will need a DMF replacement at some point and time, but I would not let that worry you any. Plus I think the better engine management of the CR engine allows for smoother engine operation with may make the DMF last longer.

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I like the way my DSG operates - very smooth. Since you see these in your shop often enough is there an "average" mileage span that the DSG's DMF should be expected such as say 100-125K? And yes, I know driving style (city, highway, gentle acceleration, etc.) also comes into play for DMF longevity. Of course #1 is changing the DSF fluid as scheduled too.

HUGE variation. And it would be difficult to say a good trend, but lots of the BEW (New Beetle) and BRM cars have started having some slight rattling as early as 80k miles, some are just starting at 200k.

Noise + vibration (at idle mostly) are when they get really bad.

The CR cars so far have been pretty good, and I have a few of those already with over 1/4 million miles on them, with only a very slight audible rattle at shut down.

As I said earlier, I think the CR's engine management can do and does a far better job of keeping the engine at a smooth idle. This almost certainly helps.

oilhammer said:

Wet clutches generally slip to some degree a lot of the time, it is not only doubtful, it is pretty proven in the 02E's case that any slippage must be pretty minimal for wear. Because if 02E clutch pack wear was "a thing", I'd be doing them all the time. And I don't. I have done a couple from excessive input shaft spline damage due to the driver wanting to see just how long they could go on a bad DMF, and a couple from damage from wrong fluid (causing a really bad chatter, that would not go away).

Only one I have ever replaced was from actually being "worn out", and it was on a 330k mile heavily modded BRM (car made, a guess, maybe a solid 180hp).

That is a VERY GOOD track record. I just had another one in last week at 405k miles for a timing belt. Original, untouched DSG (is on its third DMF).

Motorcycles with "auto clutches" use a wet pack clutch stack that looks pretty much like a tiny version of the 02E's pack (albeit only one "half"), and they tend to last a pretty long time too. And they slip as a normal method of operation. So long as they use the correct fluid, and changed as needed, they work fine.

You also have to remember, the clutch engagement strategy HAS to be different for cold ATF, otherwise the thing would slam and shudder on take off. If this strategy also has the side effect of heating of the ATF a bit, then it is a win-win. You get a nice smooth engagement even when cold, and the ATF gets up to temp a little quicker.

I'd not worry one bit about it, I really wouldn't.

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Fair enough - if you're not replacing them, then they are built well enough for the job needed including any intentional slippage.

oilhammer said:

I would be MORE pissed about the fuel system blow torching your turbocharger to get the EGTs up for a warm catalyst and DPF. Now THAT could be an issue.

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My sarcasm filter is borked, but I think it's working well enough to detect it here.

I notice the DSG in my 2015 GSW actually disengages the clutch while I accelerate, and I can practically FEEL the friction material getting shaved off.

The DSG in my (gone) 2010 JSW was very different in almost every conceivable way. It never partially engaged with the brake on. It fully disengaged quickly, allowing gears to withstand acceleration force instead of slipping/grinding the clutch. Shifts were crisper, but harder on the transmission if you were accelerating hard (I let off the throttle for shifts).

Aside from the brief delay in disengaging a clutch it had when I lifted my foot off the brake from a stop, it was "OK" (I prefer a third pedal, but "share" the car once in a while).

I learned to anticipate that delay when I needed to get into traffic in a busy street, but I know it baffled many drivers. Maybe THAT is why they changed the DSG into the clutch slipping beast that it is in the 2015 GSW. I wonder how that is going to affect the DSG clutch replacement interval...??

I can feel the differance too but as many have said wet clutches handle slip very well. I wouldnt be too concerned.

Well, I had a chance to play around in a parking garage and see where the DSG clutches begin to slip in 1st gear, manual mode. In my car with 225/45R17 Michelin Premer A/S tires, it appears that 1100-1200 RPM and 5-6 MPH is where it wants to disengage while climbing a hill. A little faster than I'd like for traffic. I wish I had a pilot override to keep the clutches lock. Although this is my only major complaint about the DSG. It has grown on me and the paddles are sweet

I have noticed the shift from 1-to-2 and 2-to-3 are slightly more crisp while in D or S mode vs. in manual mode.

Also, is it bad to shift from D or S into N while moving around 15 MPH? Approaching a long red light for example.

any speed less than 15mph isn't gonna blow the tranny up, but if coasting down a hill at 60mph ive heard its bad mojo, I believe the coolant pumps are driven off the input shaft, and heat could be an issue (prob only if you did it every day on that long hill coming home from work).

With that said what are you gaining shifting into N at those speeds? the dsg free wheels pretty good or at least predictably slows the car down.

740GLE said:

any speed less than 15mph isn't gonna blow the tranny up, but if coasting down a hill at 60mph ive heard its bad mojo, I believe the coolant pumps are driven off the input shaft, and heat could be an issue (prob only if you did it every day on that long hill coming home from work).
With that said what are you gaining shifting into N at those speeds? the dsg free wheels pretty good or at least predictably slows the car down.

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I'm a detailed driver and want to come to a smooth stop while approaching a red light. This isn't possible when in either D, S or manual because the car wants to engage and go with applying light brake pedal pressure. When I'm approaching the red light and coming to a complete stop, the brakes are fighting the DSG wanting to go. So it would be great to slip it into N around 15-10 MPH and use light brake pressure to achieve a smooth controlled stop and eliminate the DSG from wanting to engage when I'm almost stopped.

Personally, if you cannot just put it in D and let it do its thing, you should just be driving a manual car.

oilhammer said:

Personally, if you cannot just put it in D and let it do its thing, you should just be driving a manual car.

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I wish

When I was shopping around for a 2015 Golf, there were about 700 for sale nationally (48 state search) through the popular car sale websites. Only 5 of these Golfs were manuals, where 4 of them were the S trim and the other was an SEL. My ideal car is a silver SE, manual with the lighting package. Since there were so few manuals I gave up on the ideal and went with the DSG version.

My car is great, I'm just trying to find the best way to drive it to minimize the clutch wear. I've clocked 270k miles on the original clutch in my 2003 and it is still operating smoothly , so I'm holding a high bar for myself.