2003 VW Jetta is trash in the snow?

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
Think of it this way. if you had a material, like a carpet, when you vacuum it, its easy to go in one direction vs the other as the grain is going one direction. this is how your snow tires work. your running them the wrong direction. The high point of the angled tread is supposed to go into the wheel against the road, causing the rubber to deform and cause excessive grip. If its backwards the tread deforms with the grain and not against the road surface and would act like a slick tire. For now just drop your PSI down to 25psi and hope for the best until you get it done. Go to pick up some bags of sand or something heavy and put it in your trunk if you can to add some traction.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Think of it this way. if you had a material, like a carpet, when you vacuum it, its easy to go in one direction vs the other as the grain is going one direction. this is how your snow tires work. your running them the wrong direction. The high point of the angled tread is supposed to go into the wheel against the road, causing the rubber to deform and cause excessive grip. If its backwards the tread deforms with the grain and not against the road surface and would act like a slick tire. For now just drop your PSI down to 25psi and hope for the best until you get it done. Go to pick up some bags of sand or something heavy and put it in your trunk if you can to add some traction.
I think it has more to do with channeling slop away from the contact patch.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Maybe but if the sidewall says right or left it doesn't need an arrow.
It does if there is a distinction in the tread pattern between the inside and the outside. Having both also helps for situations in which people can understand symbols but not words, or vice versa, and there are more than enough of both!

In this situation, it's simple to fix, because the tire not only has the rotation arrow the wrong way but it's also on the wrong side of the car, which presumably means there's at least one the other way 'round on the other side of the car, so it's fixable simply by getting the whole car off the ground and putting the wheels marked "right" on the right and "left" on the left, and (hopefully) the rotation arrows will be all sorted out.

I had a similar issue with the summer tires on my current car, which aren't directional but are "inside/outside" sensitive. It had a vibration that I couldn't track down ... until I noticed one of the tire sidewalls that I could see from outside the car, clearly had the word "inside" written on it! I took it back to the tire shop, had them flip it around, the vibration went away and never came back.
 

boodles

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 24, 2017
Location
Canada
TDI
2003 VW Jetta
At Canadian tire now! They said they could “squeeze in” a last minute rotation... so. Here’s hoping this fixing averything!!
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
Besides rotation, instruct them to make sure the tires are on the correct side of the car and that the direction of rotation is also correct.
 

Mike_04GolfTDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 19, 2003
Location
Richmond, BC, Canada
TDI
Mine: 2019 Golf R DSG, Wife's: 2015 Golf Comfortline TDI
Check that your parking brake is releasing. It’s common on these cars for it to stick on.

On dry pavement there’s enough traction to make the wheel spin even if the rear brakes are dragging. Imagine what it would do on ice.
 

VincenzaV

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2015
Location
New Hampshire
TDI
2004 Jetta Wagon
"Best snows that I have had on these cars is the hakkapalitta R's."

-I'll "third" maxmoo/danny boy. I used hakkapalittas in the snow when I lived in Connecticut. The Jetta wagon drove as well (almost) as my 4WD Cherokee!

The company "Nokian" is from Finland, they GET some snow-so they now how to build and test winter tires.
 

najel

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
Location
Madison Lake, MN
TDI
2002 Golf 5 speed
Just to add another little hint, I have found that turning the traction control off helps as well (when there is snow/ice continuously). Wouldn't do it on partially covered roads, though.
 

20IndigoBlue02

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2001
Location
Was North NJ, now SoCal
TDI
2002 Golf TDI-- deceased
Just to add another little hint, I have found that turning the traction control off helps as well (when there is snow/ice continuously). Wouldn't do it on partially covered roads, though.
Traction control is a mixed bag.

On one hand, you have EDL, which brakes the slipping wheel to regain traction.

But you also have ASR, which is a fuel cut.

If you're going to go a climb a steep hill, turn it off, as you need all the momentum you can muster to get up a steep hill

none of this applies to MK4 TDI's, since we didn't have traction control. Late MK4 TDI's had optional ESP though.
 

pdq import repair

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Location
idaho
TDI
09 Jetta
This may get derisive comments sent my way, but on my 2WD cars I install the best tires I can find for winter. My favorites being the Hakkapetia, Blizzak, and x-ice. A good tire makes a lot of difference.

If the tires are directional I install them according to the arrows on the front (driving) wheels. If I install them on the rear, or undriven wheels, I reverse direction so the the directional traction scheme is used for braking. In actual usage the braking wheels take better advantage of the traction tread when installed backwards.

When I rotate them as they wear I cross rotate them to keep the tires going the way I want.

On my Quattro, it goes without saying they all run the direction of the arrows, though the same argument could be applied there as well.

I do this on my dual sport motorcycle too, and have for years. The idea of that actually occurred to me there as I noticed some brands actually reversed the arrows of the same tread design, depending on whether it went on front or rear. I now look at the tread and run them backwards to the arrows if applicable.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
If the tires are directional I install them according to the arrows on the front (driving) wheels. If I install them on the rear, or undriven wheels, I reverse direction so the the directional traction scheme is used for braking. In actual usage the braking wheels take better advantage of the traction tread when installed backwards.
Interesting!

Wondering, however, are winter tires' directionality also not related to belt orientation (in addition to tread pattern)? I might be out of touch with what "directional" is now days, but I recall in the past it having to do with belt orientation (not sure if tread direction was also involved- I suppose it depended on what era).
 

pdq import repair

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Location
idaho
TDI
09 Jetta
I think belt orientation in relation to direction is a myth. My preferred method of tire rotation on non directional tires is cross rotation, which also changes direction of tire after rotation.

Have done this for many many years on all manner of tires, including motorcycles. I think tread pattern is the determining factor.

As mentioned earlier, some tires have and inside and outside mounting, and that should be followed, but that would not change with cross rotation either. That is also tread pattern related, and not internally different.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
From what I understand on generic all seasons is that direction just helps with water flow and nothing else. Now sport tires that are one direction, yea don’t ever change them. the belt is made in a way to let the tire give more traction in corners and making them go in revers after 10's of thousands of miles (if you get that much out of sport tires) will make the wires stress and snap. I’ve seen a few of those but only ever on a sport tire with a wear rating of under 300, but I was just a tire and oil change GS when I worked at the shop so I have no acutely factual knowledge of why but that’s what I have gathered and seen and been told.
 

boodles

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 24, 2017
Location
Canada
TDI
2003 VW Jetta
Thank you all for your help. They got switched and I headed out of town right away. They work a thousand times better, (obviously) and had little trouble on any roads in my 1800km journey. Only problem is, I did get nearly Side swiped and run off the road up a curb and into a snowbank. Now my front right corner has a wicked rattle and practically no suspension. Had a quick look, and the strut and stabilizer link(both recently replaced) look fine, nothing else looks out of place so I guess I have to try and find a shop in the middle of nowhere to have a look at it before I leave again right after New Years.

Bright side? The tires had traction and a could stear it into the ditch instead of being creamed.

I giess you win some loose some. :(
 

pdq import repair

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Location
idaho
TDI
09 Jetta
Snow/mud gets squished out the sides,if it was reversed mud/snow would
get packed towards the center of the tread.
My theory is that on the back they only get braking force which in essence uses the tire in the traction direction it was designed to work.

I have felt noticeable differences on my motorcycle where you apply brakes separately front and rear with reversed traction direction.
 

Funguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2005
Location
Front Range of Colorado
TDI
2015 Golf Sportwagen dsg and 2015 Passat 6 M/T
PDQ that is great thinking outside the box. When I read your first post about reversing the rotation on the rears I said to myself why didn't I think of that. However, when I checked a little it seems that it is not a good idea. Directional tires are supposed to channel more water (and snow???) out from under the tread so by reversing it you are not increasing your brake performance. Dang it I was ready to jack the car and switch the rears. https://www.wheels.ca/news/tires-have-directional-treads-for-a-reason/
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
No the reason snow tires work one direction is that the rubber is at an angle. It gets compressed when it hits the road more than a tread that would be at 90* angle, the tread is at like an 80* angle? All I know is that it compresses against the angle of attack and creates a higher area of grip do to the rubber wanting to expand. If it goes backwards it wants to slip away from the road as the angle of attack is past the center axis of pressure not before it. Now with alreasonals that have a tread grove in them, that’s for directing water. Here watch this. For understanding the water removal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhP1SntvttUhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhP1SntvttU
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Snow/mud gets squished out the sides,if it was reversed mud/snow would
get packed towards the center of the tread.
Exactly. The idea is to give the tire contact patch as much purchase as possible on the underlying road surface.
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
On the subject of reversing tread pattern, if a motor grader does not have front wheel drive, the front tires are reversed from the rear. So the rear "arrow" points to the rear, on the rear and point to the front on the front.

AWD graders all point to the rear.

Not sure it's relevant, but it's true.:)
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
I think having the tread reversed leaves a cleaner road surface behind the machine. Especially the back tire tracks, which don't get cleaned up by the blade. My neighbor used to have an old Austin Western road grader with one front tire mounted one way, and the other opposite. No idea what the reasoning, if any, was there.
What I meant was that on a non FWD grader, the rear tires are mounted like in the drawing earlier, but the fronts are mounted reverse. On an AWD, they are all mounted as drawn earlier.

Leaving tracks is irrelevant because the grader makes is level, but a roller will go behind and make it smooth. At least when prepping a surface. For smoothing a dirt road or plowing snow, maximum traction is paramount to tracks in the road.
 

pdq import repair

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Location
idaho
TDI
09 Jetta
Good comments all, I like a lively discussion but it is hard to change peoples minds especially on something like this with vague facts.

I have and will continue to run the non driven tires on my cars, motorcycles, motor graders backwards. I have done it for years and my cars feel solid and fine in the snow. Like in 1.9Zook's drawing (which is correct for a non driven tire, and backwards for a driven one) it shows that the actual rotational torque on the tread is the force that starts the migration of snow or mud out of the tread. Look at tractor rear tires for an extreme example of that. So on non driven wheels the actual torque applied to the tread is on braking, otherwise they are just rolling like trailer tires.

Curiously enough i hatched this theory of reversing tires back in the stone ages before good tread compounds were plentiful and I ran studded snow tires in the winter. I noticed that the studs on the front would take a lean to one direction due to constant driving torque. The rears stayed straight for the most part. I would rotate as they wore according to the normal convention at the time, front to rear. I then noticed the then new to the front tires would also acquire the leaning stud over time. The rear tire that were formerly on the front started to stand the studs back up a little and over time loosened them to a point where they would throw out and be gone. I pondered that problem for a while and figured that if I left the torque push on the studs they would lean but not get loosened so easy. That is when I started reversing the tires on purpose on the non driven wheels to keep pushing the studs in one direction. it worked extremely well and I never lost another stud again. Now I detest studded tires due to road and shop floor destruction. The new studless tire work so well there is little use for studs anymore at all. That may also spawn retaliatory comments, but I am very convinced on that subject too.

The theory is the same though, and I have proven it to myself over many years and many sets of tires. I can burn through three sets of tires in a summer on my bike so I have had lots of chances to test it on that platform. I seem to go through only one set of tires a year on my car, and really only the winter tires are the ones I reverse intentionally by tread pattern as the road tires are symmetrical tread normally. I do cross rotate and change rolling direction of all tires even then.
 
Last edited:

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
What I meant was that on a non FWD grader, the rear tires are mounted like in the drawing earlier, but the fronts are mounted reverse. On an AWD, they are all mounted as drawn earlier.

Leaving tracks is irrelevant because the grader makes is level, but a roller will go behind and make it smooth. At least when prepping a surface. For smoothing a dirt road or plowing snow, maximum traction is paramount to tracks in the road.

Ok, that makes more sense. I googled road grader tire tread orientation, and the best explanation for the reversed front tire tread pattern seemed to be that they were more likely to turn than plow up on soft surfaces that way. Apparently some of the tires have arrows pointing one way for drive wheels, and arrows pointed the other way for un-driven wheels. It's interesting anecdotally, but probably not at all applicable to passenger cars.
 
Last edited:

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I just checked my Kubota tractor ag tires, and there is one arrow marked traction wheel and an opposite arrow marked rolling wheel. I'll stick with all four mounted properly on my car though ;) .
 

Vince Waldon

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Location
Edmonton AB Canada
TDI
2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
On my (Great White North-driven) car I point directional tires the way the manufacturer intended, but on my mountain bike I mount 'em based on local conditions at the time. One way if I want traction, and backwards if I want braking... generally one of each. :)
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
I'm thinking that reversal of tread direction is self-canceling. Any benefits you get from the tread wanting to bite harder during braking is likely going to be canceled by the fact that it's going to end up packing more water/snow in front of the tire. In rainy conditions, which I'm quite familiar with, the tire is going to be hydroplaning more due to the loss of channeling (from intended orientation). I'll admit that I don't deal with a lot of snow, but I figure the same principles tend to apply. Icy surfaces, if only ice, might be a slightly different story.
 

tread

Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2015
Location
british columbia
TDI
2004 jeta TDI
I have a 2004 Jetta automatic wagen tdi and always have studded winter tires, awesome for winter conditions for here in northwest b.c.
tread
 
Top