Car stalled, won't start

Early word is that the timing did skip. They say they've seen engines where the timing skipped that were not severely damaged (though I have no idea how common that is) so they are going to reset the timing and see if it starts. Does that sound like a reasonable plan? Hopefully I'm relaying what they are doing accurately as I'm not really very well versed in the details of engines, timing, etc.

Hopefully they can tell you why the timing "skipped". If they simply reset the timing I'd think it will happen again.
Note: One very good mechanic on this site suggests that the tensioner is only good once.

There's a reason it jumped.
Either the tensioner wasn't tight enough, or a tooth is missing, or something got into the belt and made it jump.
I agree with Bob, I would want a clue before cranking it again. I would put a new belt on at minimum and inspect the last one. Only exception would be the intention of doing a timing belt if it does start, however, the present belt needs fully inspected.

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How long ago was TB done?
How many teeth did it jump? I think three is the limit before valve to piston contact happens.
I would not start it without inspecting the lifters. Put a new belt on fine, while to belt is off pull the cam and inspect the top of all lifters......that will tell you the story if you should start it with a new belt.
My suspicion is that the tensioner was set right .

TB was done once at the appropriate time (80 or 100k? can't remember). It was done by metalman in PA. Since we moved up here in 2003 I've worked at home and haven't driven very much so I kind of lost track of how long it had been since the TB was done...almost 10 years (2010 I believe). I'm not sure what the current mileage is but probably around 140k.

Certainly if it turns out there is no or minimal internal damage I will have them replace the TB. At this point I don't know how many teeth it jumped, or why. These guys are highly recommended TDI mechanics (on the trusted/rec list and good reviews by members here) so I'm going to have to trust they know what they're doing for now.

Got an update late Friday. Doesn't sound good. I'll try to describe what they said as best I can remember.

Said they were unable to reset the timing because they could not manually turn the engine to the appropriate place - it was "hanging up" on something. If this is the case I don't know how the vw dealer was able to do a compression test? Anyway, they said they took off a cover (valve cover?) to look at the camshaft or something related to the cam and it looked OK. Then they put a scope into the cylinders and found that one of the pistons was damaged. Not sure exactly what that means, sounded like it may have fractured. Don't know whether something happened to the piston or some other component first, causing the timing jump, or if the timing jumped which caused the damage they saw.

As I've mentioned before, I'm not a mechanic and have never worked on engines in any detail. Has anyone had this kind of damage occur? The guy at the shop said it's not common but pistons occasionally do fail, possibly due to defects during manufacturing. Just strange that it took like 140k miles to happen.

Anyway, they don't think it's worth repairing and are looking for a replacement engine but I'm probably going to just move on at this point. If anyone can recommend further questions I can ask them about what happened and what they found, please let me know. Thanks.

These are imposing engines which means the valves will make contact with the piston when they jump time. This is likely what happened.
Look in the classified section here. There's a few places selling Long blocks here.
I think I mentioned Powerhound had a long block listed right now. He's in the north east and ready to get rid of it.

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My engine is gone, but I might be able to set it up for you to get a different one. You'd need to find a mechanic or shop capable of doing the replacement for a reasonable fee.

There was a person locally to me a few years ago that got a quote for $6k to swap in a used engine. I think they just wanted to steal the car, as it was nicely done and in good shape other than the tooefed head. And yeah, it happens when timing slips; the term is interference engine. If this is the case, it is highly doubtful that it is a manufacturing defect on a piston. That would have happened long before 140k miles.

A used engine swap is also most likely much cheaper to do than replace a piston, probably the rod, hone the cylinder, replace the rings. And surely there would be head work involved, even if it is no more than a single valve and lifter. Probably you'd need at least a cam and set of lifters as well as the valve.

So see what your shop says, and then see if you can find a mechanic that knows TDIs. If they don't know the engine well, I would wonder if they really know how to correctly check the timing. Too many guys will assure you they know everything there is to know about TDI engines when in fact they haven't a clue and their ego and lack of integrity writes checks that their skills and experience can't cash.

Good luck,

PH

coh said:

Got an update late Friday. Doesn't sound good. I'll try to describe what they said as best I can remember.

Said they were unable to reset the timing because they could not manually turn the engine to the appropriate place - it was "hanging up" on something. If this is the case I don't know how the vw dealer was able to do a compression test? Anyway, they said they took off a cover (valve cover?) to look at the camshaft or something related to the cam and it looked OK. Then they put a scope into the cylinders and found that one of the pistons was damaged. Not sure exactly what that means, sounded like it may have fractured. Don't know whether something happened to the piston or some other component first, causing the timing jump, or if the timing jumped which caused the damage they saw.

As I've mentioned before, I'm not a mechanic and have never worked on engines in any detail. Has anyone had this kind of damage occur? The guy at the shop said it's not common but pistons occasionally do fail, possibly due to defects during manufacturing. Just strange that it took like 140k miles to happen.

Anyway, they don't think it's worth repairing and are looking for a replacement engine but I'm probably going to just move on at this point. If anyone can recommend further questions I can ask them about what happened and what they found, please let me know. Thanks.

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Very odd sequence of diagnosis going on here. No idea how the dealer did a compression test when the engine didn't turn, and no idea why the second mechanic would start with 'try to put the belt back'. Timing belt should have been the primary concern right from the get go for both of them and they should have started with checking the timing and done the scoping first.

Good used engine $500-1000 at most. Labor to put it in? Somewhere around $2000-$3000. I just replaced my engine on my 2003 this past December. Did it myself, $500 for the engine, a week+ under the hood, and about $1200 in replacing every bolt and seal I came across, which was probably not necessary, but I love this car waay to much and it was worth it to me to have the car far in to the future hopefully.

If not worth it to you but you like the diesels, go find one of the buyback TDI's. VW is offering 0% financing on the certified ones. Super tempting.

300D said:

Very odd sequence of diagnosis going on here. No idea how the dealer did a compression test when the engine didn't turn, and no idea why the second mechanic would start with 'try to put the belt back'. Timing belt should have been the primary concern right from the get go for both of them and they should have started with checking the timing and done the scoping first.

Good used engine $500-1000 at most. Labor to put it in? Somewhere around $2000-$3000. I just replaced my engine on my 2003 this past December. Did it myself, $500 for the engine, a week+ under the hood, and about $1200 in replacing every bolt and seal I came across, which was probably not necessary, but I love this car waay to much and it was worth it to me to have the car far in to the future hopefully.

If not worth it to you but you like the diesels, go find one of the buyback TDI's. VW is offering 0% financing on the certified ones. Super tempting.

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I agree, very odd. The place that has the car now (trusted TDI mechanics) said they don't think the dealer could have even done a compression test with the condition of the engine, so...who knows what they did. As for putting the belt back, maybe I didn't explain it clearly. The belt didn't break or come off, it apparently skipped/slipped and they were trying to reset the timing to see if it would start. That's how I understand it but maybe I'm not conveying it properly.

Anyway, I heard from them today and they do have an engine they can swap in. They recommend replacing the timing stuff (belt, tensioner, something else...water pump maybe?) since you never know who did it when. Estimated total cost would be around $3500. I didn't remember to ask about the mileage on the engine they have.

So now I have to decide...already spent several hundred for new brakes, a couple hundred in towing costs, rental car expense, now another $3500 for an almost 20 year old car. Or just pitch it and get something new. Gotta sleep on it.

coh said:

I agree, very odd. The place that has the car now (trusted TDI mechanics) said they don't think the dealer could have even done a compression test with the condition of the engine, so...who knows what they did. As for putting the belt back, maybe I didn't explain it clearly. The belt didn't break or come off, it apparently skipped/slipped and they were trying to reset the timing to see if it would start. That's how I understand it but maybe I'm not conveying it properly.

Anyway, I heard from them today and they do have an engine they can swap in. They recommend replacing the timing stuff (belt, tensioner, something else...water pump maybe?) since you never know who did it when. Estimated total cost would be around $3500. I didn't remember to ask about the mileage on the engine they have.

So now I have to decide...already spent several hundred for new brakes, a couple hundred in towing costs, rental car expense, now another $3500 for an almost 20 year old car. Or just pitch it and get something new. Gotta sleep on it.

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Well, if they're actually in the trusted list and $3500 includes the timing belt, engine, and install. $1000 of that is a timing belt leaving $2500 for the engine and install.
You're good for 100kMi after that other than filters and oil. If they are willing to give you a modest guarantee it beats increased fuel costs and payments.

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eddieleephd said:

Well, if they're actually in the trusted list and $3500 includes the timing belt, engine, and install. $1000 of that is a timing belt leaving $2500 for the engine and install.
You're good for 100kMi after that other than filters and oil. If they are willing to give you a modest guarantee it beats increased fuel costs and payments.

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Probably not a thousand for the timing belt when the engine is sitting on the shop floor. So easy. It’s like working on a motorcycle. Pull up a comfy stool and get it all perfect in no time. Still $3500 is a good fair price. And if trusted, will result in plenty of years of service. Waaay cheaper than a new car.

Yep ....pull the trigger....that’s one year of car payments , more or less then it’s paid for......not to mention it’s cheaper to insure than a new car.......
Perfect incentive to learn on how to do basic maintenance on a your car.......

Wow... I'm wondering what mechanics even know these days. I think the first required talent is the dexterity to remove money from a bank account by ringing the cash register.

Here is my wild guess. The engine sat around for lots of years with a crusty intake manifold. The brake mechanic 'gave it hell' and the puff of smoke is when gobs of the caked up intake blew chunks of clinkers into the cylinder, causing one or more valves to stick open. That can also cause the loss of compression and a 'no start' condition.

The rest of the problems are a comedy of errors compoundesd by one mechanic after another.

I don't know how an engine can be an interference (imposing?) engine, have contact with a piston, without damaging a lifter. What is more, the only way the engine block can properly be diagnosed is to remove the cylinder head. No 'and's, if's or but's'.

In my opinion, the timing belt, if it didn't skip, was misaligned. If it jumped time and that happened below 65 mph, the real 'damage' to the piston is you will slighltly dent the valve relief in the piston, usually without serious consequence to the block, but a bent valve. No where do I see how many miles the engine has on it. It could be a really good, low mileage block you'd trade out for a junkyard dog.

All this talk of replacing and engine is very premature without first determining if the piston height has been disturbed. Even then, we have reliably and effectively replaced bent rod sets and reinstalled in engines that went back into service for much less than I hear being proposed. We have rebuilt and installed cylinder heads onto the block with new timing belt for $1600.

More than that, without examining the existing engine, (and by the way, with a lot of man hours to effect the change) with a worse block than what is currently installed? How can you say the pistons even need any work if you haven't examined them? What damage? You need to know what they mean. I'm no doctor, but if I was, I doubt if I'd be able to tell if you had a bad head ache or meningitis over the phone...

The engine doesn't work. It's not going to get any better without looking. The first thing I'd do is pull the cam and look at the lifters... cams in the way. I can't tell, so you can't either... If the lifters are fractured, take the head off. If a piston is damaged, then and only then can you reasonably determine if the block should be replaced.

Here is the real kicker... is it even worth $3500? Probably not. Sometimes, if it comes to that, you have to cut your losses.

Feel free to call, if I can be any additional help.

Yeah, the risk of getting a clunker engine is something that concerns me as well.

I just got some clarification and it probably explains what happened. I spoke to the original mechanic who did the brake work and asked him to describe the symptoms again. He said "I started it, it revved way up, gave out a big puff of black smoke and died". It "revved way up", there it is. I do remember when he first told me what happened he did mention it "revved up" but I didn't catch that or it didn't sound significant the way he described it.

Sounds like a diesel runaway? But it sounds like the failure happened almost immediately which seems a little strange to me.

I can't imaging anyone doing brake work could damage something that could lead to a diesel runaway situation?

Oh well...thanks for all the help and suggestions. I'm going to talk to the current mechanic again and see if the new information changes anything from their perspective.

It's not hard to imagine that a mechanic would have driven the car 'spiritedly'. If he accelerated hard and expected to test the brakes, that is a reasonable scenario to assume. If you and the previous owner are placid drivers, the issue of runaway would not come up, or at least not in the same way.

"Revved way up" is a runaway and that would be WHITE smoke, not black. So, the scenario changes, but the question is when did the timing belt get off time. If it was in the middle of a runaway, and especially if it's an automatic, that can be a total s**t storm. If it was a total runaway and the turbo compressor wheel broke, the automatic transmissions usually stop running when there is no more oil in the engine's oil pan.

The cam needs to come out. If the #1 cam journal is galled, throw in the towel. You are over the top on that engine.

If it was a 'partial' runaway and turning off the key was able to stop the engine from continuing a runaway, at very least, add a turbo to your list of things that need to be replaced. That amounts to about $900 worth of turbo. We can get a very good rebuild for 1/3rd less.

A runaway means the engine is running on the engine oil, with no control. It only takes 24cc's of engine oil in a cylinder and you have a hydro-lock. That means all of the space in the engine's piston/ cylinder that is mostly the combustion hole in the piston...24cc's, is taken up. Once that is filled up, and oil will not compress, usually one or two rods will bend. Add $400 minimum for rod replacement. We do have good used parts to replace and balance rods in sets.

The timing belt is around $300. You might trust the rollers if they are not too old, but the belt, tensioner stud and tensioner have to go. Maybe $100.

I bet the cylinder head has damaged valves and all the necessary gaskets to return the head to service...$750.

Labor is going to be around 14-16 hrs, if you have to replace turbo, straighten some rods and rebuild the cylinder head.

1) Pull the cam and see if there is damage to the #1 cam journal. 2) Check the turbo shaft. 3) pull the cylinder head and check piston protrusion. All of that can be done in about 3hrs of labor. That will tell you what you really need to know.

Many thanks, Frank. I don't know what to say about the first mechanic. I've gone to him for years, my sense is he's not someone who would lie about what happened. He could have been out driving or he could have stomped on the accelerator, maybe there was white smoke that he didn't mention. It sounds strange to me that a runaway would happen and kill the engine that quickly but I wasn't there.

I did talk to the current mechanic last night and they don't seem to think, based on their experience, that it is worth pursuing any further diagnostics on the current engine. They work almost exclusively on VWs, are a trusted TDI mechanic, the owner has driven and worked on TDIs (he described himself as a TDI nut). They have an engine they can swap in, total cost would be around $3500, it comes with a warranty. As he said, if the new engine is a clunker they eat that cost.

I'm still not sure but I do appreciate your input.

Chris

To be quite blunt, I'm of the opinion it takes very little additional effort to remove the cylinder head, particularly when the intent is replacement of the whole engine.

Although the mechanic claims it's not worth pursuing, it doesn't take much and my personal curiosity would push me to look anyway.

What is more, we will NOT install and engine without first removing the cylinder head and inspecting the pistons, cylinder walls and cylinder head condition. (btw: I think that logic stands for the removal of an engine, also)

Years ago, I made the mistake of installing an engine that was a POS. I will never repeat the process. I want to know the quality of the engine. It costs the price of a head gasket and head bolts to find out. That's less than $60, or well-spent 'insurance'.