Car stalled, won't start

Hey all,


Been a while since I've been on the forum but I'm having a problem with my 2002 Golf TDI. I took it to a local mechanic on Monday evening for some brake work. It seemed to drive fine on the way over, though I thought it perhaps felt a bit sluggish. Hasn't been driven much over the past couple of months due to the shutdown, stay at home, etc.


Anyway, the mechanic started it up, got it into the shop and did the brake work. Then he says he started it up to go on a test drive, but before he could the car "gave a big puff of black smoke" and stalled. Now he cannot restart it - engine cranks but never starts.


One problem is, the guy doesn't work on diesel engines, so if I can't troubleshoot it I'm going to have to have it towed to another mechanic for that (probably the dealer shudder). Another is that I haven't been able to get over there so I'm only able to go on what he is telling me. I've asked him to check if the glowplug light comes on when he turns the key but haven't heard back yet.


I've browsed the forum and come up with a number of possibilities...relay 109 (would that kind of failure cause the black smoke?), anti-shudder valve (can that cause stalling? I know it can be a cause of inability to start). Then there are other more complex problems such as fuel pump.


He said there wasn't any unusual noise so I'm guessing it's not the turbo. Any suggestions? I'm going to try to get over there today or tomorrow.


BTW, car is rather low mileage for its age (between 120-150k), has had regular oil changes, timing belt changed, etc. One thing that has not been done is EGR/manifold cleaning and fuel filter is probably overdue for replacement.


Chris

Oh boy. Check timing marks and verify belt has not jumped or missing teeth.
I would not crank it other than by hand at the crank until you can verify that the valves are in time. Timing belt is only good for like 5 years although you can get more life from them.
Any chance you can take it to a proper diesel mechanic? We have a limits of trusted mechanics I suggest you have it towed to a place that can solve this issue. Tow at the shops expense.

Mongler98 said:

Oh boy. Check timing marks and verify belt has not jumped or missing teeth.
I would not crank it other than by hand at the crank until you can verify that the valves are in time. Timing belt is only good for like 5 years although you can get more life from them.
Any chance you can take it to a proper diesel mechanic? We have a limits of trusted mechanics I suggest you have it towed to a place that can solve this issue. Tow at the shops expense.

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Too late for that. It didn't happen in my possession so I have no idea how many times he tried to start it. I'm setting up towing right now.


Timing belt was replaced more than 5 years ago though I'd have to check my records to see exactly when. Hopefully it's not that. Glowplug light was coming on so doesn't appear to be a 109 issue.

The puff of black smoke is the only reason I suspect timing. Hope it gets sorted.
Maybe this will be a good silver lining of finding a good diesel mechanic in your area

yeah sounds like jumped timing to me as well. And without stating the obvious , you cant trust whatever this inexperienced mechanic tells you.

There are a ton of things it could be besides skipped timing... no way to know until you get it to a mechanic that has relevant diesel experience, or start to look into it yourself directly and in person.

Air/fuel/timing/compression. Turbo doesn't come into play till after the engine is running so unlikely the cause of a no-start. Glow plug light on/off is a good indicator for relay 109's health... car won't need glowplugs themselves to start though.

My first are verify timing because you want to be sure.
Relay 109 and the crank sensor that so many seem to have going out these days...

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Check if any of the big pipes have come loose. Handy job for a lift, remove lower engine cover.

Anti-shutter valve dogbone broken allowing flapper to remain closed maybe?

miningman said:

yeah sounds like jumped timing to me as well. And without stating the obvious , you cant trust whatever this inexperienced mechanic tells you.

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He's not inexperienced, but he does not work on diesel engines (I use him for brakes mainly). Well, I guess you could say he is inexperienced when it comes to diesel engines but he should still be able to report effectively "what happened" even if he has no idea why.


Anyway, it's on the way to the dealer as there are no other TDI gurus within a reasonable distance. Wish me luck. Will report back when I know something. And thanks for all the suggestions, if it happened in my possession I would have looked things over and checked on the anti-shudder valve, pipes, timing belt, etc.

coh said:

Anyway, it's on the way to the dealer.

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Good luck!

03Wagn said:

Good luck!

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I don't have a good feeling about it but maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. I've used the dealer for other work in the past but never anything this potentially serious.

Well don't let them tell you something crazy. Ask about the things we mentioned before they do any work.

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No chance it was scanned for codes before it went to the dealer?

Whenever I stall my ALH, I have to pull the 109, put it back in and it starts right up.
But it never smokes so something else is going on as mentioned.

The dealer wont be able to do much more than anyone else with I internet access. Your dealing with a nearly 20yo car . Your going to need to take it to a trusted tdi mech.
Most of the trouble shooting stuff you can do yourself.
Hope the dealer is worth it in the end. Fingers crossed. Might get lucky

Mongler98 said:

The dealer wont be able to do much more than anyone else with I internet access. Your dealing with a nearly 20yo car . Your going to need to take it to a trusted tdi mech.
Most of the trouble shooting stuff you can do yourself.
Hope the dealer is worth it in the end. Fingers crossed. Might get lucky

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I probably should have had it towed to a different place and might go that route depending on what I hear from the dealer.

Update...not much of an update.


Car got to dealer yesterday and they got it in the shop today. They claim they were busy and didn't get to do everything they need to do, but so far don't know what the problem(s) is (are). I can say that they told me there were no codes in the ECU and it isn't the timing belt.


So here's where we're at:


1) Engine started Tuesday after brake service, died and gave a "huge" puff of black smoke. Would not start thereafter (but does crank).


2) Towed to VW dealer. No engine codes, timing belt intact, nothing obvious so far though they didn't tell me exactly what they have checked so far.


3) They're talking about doing a compression test tomorrow, is that a reasonable thing to do at this point or are there other things I should suggest first?


4) From browsing the forum I've seen a few reports that manifolds were clogged to the point the car just stopped running. Could that cause such a sudden failure? I thought the car felt a little sluggish the day before but nothing that made me think I was going to have an immediate problem.


Thanks everyone...

coh,
Honestly, you'd be better off finding a shade tree mechanic who knows your engine.
The dealer will soak you, and may still get nowhere.
If you're not inclined to do your own wrenching, your lovely Golf might become a pretty
expensive pal. Which is sad, because if it's true that the timing belt is fine, the issue is probably super simple to fix.
EDIT: but to answer at least one of your questions, a compression test is the last thing I would look at.
It was starting and running fine before this? Not the head gasket then. Not unless you have combustion byproduct/soot in your coolant all of a sudden. I would start by inspecting the entire air tract from the pre-air-filter tube, through the turbo,
through the intercooler and finally the intake manifold.
And "inspect" means take the tubes off and make sure they are clean, and they go back on with tight connections.
seen a few reports that manifolds were clogged to the point the car just stopped running. Could that cause such a sudden failure?
If a big chunk of crap made it into the engine, it could result in big problems...yes, a sudden quit. Possible.
Best of luck

I recommend replacing the crank sensor and relay 109.
Neither of them throw a code and they are the only things that immediately make any sense. Mostly the crank sensor. I recently had to replace mine because it would shut down and not start until it cooled down. It presents randomly and intermittently, could easily cause a lot power symptom. 109 not so much, but it could cause a no start.
If I'm wrong you're out an hour and know they're new which is never a bad thing to know about them.

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The problem with taking it to a dealer, most of the guys working in the service bay were little kids when this car was made and this may in fact be the first 2002 alh they have ever looked at.

I know not real helpful.

Tdijarhead said:

The problem with taking it to a dealer, most of the guys working in the service bay were little kids when this car was made and this may in fact be the first 2002 alh they have ever looked at.

I know not real helpful.

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I haven't thought of it like that before. Kinda makes me smile.

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Engine might be toast. Taking it to the dealer was probably not the best idea, but what is done is done. Here is where things stand.

They said the timing belt was intact but I don't think they looked any further to see whether it had lost teeth or jumped.

They did a compression test and got very low values. #1 250, #2 162, #3 214, #4 glowplug was seized and they didn't want to risk breaking it so left it alone. I don't know if this can affect the results...I'm not a mechanic and have never really done any work on cars other than oil and various filter changes.

So they say the only thing that can be done is to replace the engine which would be many thousands of dollars. Not worth it for an almost 20 year old car.

I have spoken to the guys at Select Eurocars, one of the mechanics on the trusted list who have received many good reviews. They are 40 miles away so it would be another $200 to tow over there, plus additional diagnostic costs. They've said that while the engine could be toast, there are some possible causes for this type of failure that might not require replacing the whole engine. Whether the cost of repairing would even be worth it remains to be seen.

What do people here think...time to just move on or worth a couple hundred more in towing and diagnostic costs just to be sure? Is the compression result signaling the end of the road?

Thanks very much for all the suggestions.

That depends on a couple things. What kind of over all shape is the car in? If its not rusted out I would say it’s worth a second look by someone who knows what they’re doing.

03Wagn said:

That depends on a couple things. What kind of over all shape is the car in? If its not rusted out I would say it’s worth a second look by someone who knows what they’re doing.

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It's got some rust but is not too bad considering it's been in this climate for almost 20 years.

Exhaust system has a break near the cat converter so that needs to be replaced (it was repaired once but don't think it can be repaired again).

Timing belt will need replacement if it didn't slip or lose teeth, it's overdue in years though not miles.

Manifold cleaning probably necessary.

I just spent several hundred on brakes so that was done.

Worst case scenario, you replace the motor. Good runners can be had for under 1000$. And then you would have to pay for labor if you didn’t do the work your self. So say you had to potentially put a couple grand into it, would it be worth it to you? You’re the only one who can make that decision, but considering you just spent $ on brakes I would have it at least looked at.

Ask Powerhound what he wants for his long block
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=506592

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Have you considered checking the injectors for pressure before you think about a new motor? If you have an injector that is not producing pressure, the engine will not be happy running on 3 cylinders. I would also replace the fuel filter if you don't have records of doing it in the last 60K miles.

If the engine cold started, idled and accelerated properly before this incident and you didn't run it low on oil, I would disregard the compression numbers.

h.ubk

Well, we're off to Select Eurocars. I would imagine they will know what to check (regarding injectors, etc). I don't know exactly what they did at the dealer, not much from what they told me. At least they only charged 1 hour of labor time to do the compression test and whatever else. On the other hand, they wanted about $3k for labor to replace the engine along with $6k for the engine itself. Thanks, but no thanks. Didn't seem like they were really interested in doing any further evaluation.

I will post an update when I hear something, they are supposed to start looking at it Friday morning.

Thanks to everyone who has provided suggestions along the way!

Well, we're off to Select Eurocars. I would imagine they will know what to check (regarding injectors, etc).

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I don't know that shop personally, but mechanics in general I would definitely double-check everything they do. Many of them are parts-changers and do not know how to do troubleshooting.

h.ubk