A little TDI Porn

Thread starter IndigoBlueWagon
Start date May 18, 2009

I

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/

#1

I hope this title doesn't get me banned, but these boxes arrived today:

There are actually five of them, but one is opened so I could get some pictures of this.

This is a GT2260v from a BMW 3 liter diesel in an X-5. Vacuum actuator, oil feed and return lines in good spots, and we can make flanges for the compressor exit and the downpipe. All we need is a manifold.
Just for reference, here it is side-by-side with a VNT-15

I think if it's clocked a bit it should line up fine. All it needs is a manifold.

If the guys in Europe are to be believed (and why not?) this is an ideal upgrade for BEW and BRMs.

vwmikel

Vendor , w/Business number

#2

Compressor map:

dieselpower04

Veteran Member

#3

VWMikel, what is the take home message from this compressor map? I don't know how to read these. I understand that the x-axis is flow, but what does the pressure-ratio tell us?

vwmikel

Vendor , w/Business number

#4

dieselpower04 said:
VWMikel, what is the take home message from this compressor map? I don't know how to read these. I understand that the x-axis is flow, but what does the pressure-ratio tell us?

The pressure ratio is essentially how many times it can multiply the inlet pressure. Atmostpheric is 1 bar (14.7 psi) at sea level so a 2 PR (pressure ratio) will get you 1 bar of gauge pressure (2 bar absolute). A 3 PR will get you 3 bar absolute or 2 bar of gauge pressure (29.4 psi).

I ran it well past that top line before I had a compressor map and it seemed to work pretty well but I worry about the shaft speed (mine failed and I'm not sure if it was at all related). Take from it what you will.

dieselpower04

Veteran Member

#5

vwmikel said:
The pressure ratio is essentially how many times it can multiply the inlet pressure. Atmostpheric is 1 bar (14.7 psi) at sea level so a 2 PR (pressure ratio) will get you 1 bar of gauge pressure (2 bar absolute). A 3 PR will get you 3 bar absolute or 2 bar of gauge pressure (29.4 psi).

I ran it well past that top line before I had a compressor map and it seemed to work pretty well but I worry about the shaft speed (mine failed and I'm not sure if it was at all related). Take from it what you will.

Coolness. Thanks!

I

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/

#6

What's interesting is we often run turbos off the compressor map. This might be an interesting case of having a big enough turbo that we can run it in its efficiency range. We seem to run turbos mostly on the edge of surge. Have I got this right: 2.6 bar on this graph is actually about 23 PSI, or 37 minus atmosphere? Perhaps some folks across the sea can comment on the boost levels they run.

shadowmaker

Veteran Member

#7

As I said earlier, I think someone forgot to fill the upper part of that chart...

vwmikel

Vendor , w/Business number

#8

shadowmaker said:
As I said earlier, I think someone forgot to fill the upper part of that chart...

The problem I have with that assessment is that it seems to peak at a 2.6 PR at 145,000 RPM, but this one below makes it all the way past 2.8 at 155,000 RPM....and it's at a much higher flow rate.

mrchill

TDIClub Enthusiast, Super Secret Diesel Ninja Vend

#9

Yes...but what is the a\r? Is this turbo going to have reasonable spool in a 2.0 liter application? The BMW one was designed for a significantly larger engine, and will take both mechanical and electronic tuning to make streetable in the way that we all have become accustomed. The turbo you have listed seems as though it will require far more energy to drive, thereby making it possibly too big for the average Tdi. And where did the rest of the former compresser map go?

I

im570rm

Veteran Member

#10

it will spool ok on our tdis,probably very similar to the VK version

Farfromovin

Torque Addict

#11

Nice Peter. Now you just need some "Passenger Performance" style exhaust manifolds made up. Sounds like 5 more 200+ whp TDI's here in N.A.

vwmikel

Vendor , w/Business number

#12

mrchill said:
Yes...but what is the a\r? Is this turbo going to have reasonable spool in a 2.0 liter application? The BMW one was designed for a significantly larger engine, and will take both mechanical and electronic tuning to make streetable in the way that we all have become accustomed. The turbo you have listed seems as though it will require far more energy to drive, thereby making it possibly too big for the average Tdi. And where did the rest of the former compresser map go?

Maybe it's too big to spool idle like all the sheep around here want to see. Does that make it too big? Not neccesarily. As for the map, well apprently that's as fast as Garrett felt it could spin.

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor

#13

I wonder if a BHW manifold would possibly work... since the BHW's VNT is not integral. I know someone that may have an extra laying around for test-fitting purposes.

mrchill

TDIClub Enthusiast, Super Secret Diesel Ninja Vend

#14

So because people want driveability...they are sheep? I think not. I think that making a vehicle drive well AND make power is hard work....and most tuners are not interested or even able to do said hard work. A big turbo absolutely can be driveable with enough money. Most folks (not sheep) are not interested in spending 15k to make their car go fast and be streetable. This is why turbo matching is important. If a giant turbo was pnp...there would be many more of them. But the average person wants easy install and moderate to large power increases with streetable driveability.

So far the huge turbo crowd on this continent has not done this. They are fun to drive...a blast even. But not good street cars.They all smoke till they spool enough(even hybrids do some), the bigger, the smokier. There are also other reasons for that besides the spool time. Someone at some point will make a Tdi runs sweet and streetable with a really big turbo....and I will fly out to drive it. But till then, I suspect that giant turbos will continue to be relegated to competition.

vwmikel

Vendor , w/Business number

#15

mrchill said:
So because people want driveability...they are sheep? I think not. I think that making a vehicle drive well AND make power is hard work....and most tuners are not interested or even able to do said hard work. A big turbo absolutely can be driveable with enough money. Most folks (not sheep) are not interested in spending 15k to make their car go fast and be streetable. This is why turbo matching is important. If a giant turbo was pnp...there would be many more of them. But the average person wants easy install and moderate to large power increases with streetable driveability.

So far the huge turbo crowd on this continent has not done this. They are fun to drive...a blast even. But not good street cars.They all smoke till they spool enough(even hybrids do some), the bigger, the smokier. There are also other reasons for that besides the spool time. Someone at some point will make a Tdi runs sweet and streetable with a really big turbo....and I will fly out to drive it. But till then, I suspect that giant turbos will continue to be relegated to competition.

I'm not one of the people who would consider 300ft/lbs+ at 2000 RPM to be driveable by any stretch of the imagination. It's just a recipe for disaster and I really don't understand why nobody here is interested in making a "square" engine. That is, equal parts hp and torque for a nice linear curve instead of just a giant torque spike and then it's all down hill from there. It's such a disappointment because you have nothing to look forward to.

just because you have a larger turbo doesn't mean it will smoke (sure, it will spool faster), but if it bothers you then it can be tuned out.

I

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/

#16

Interesting idea, oilhammer. Perhaps. But I also wonder if this turbo would benefit from a manifold built for it.

Tomorrow I'm going to talk to my contact at Garrett and see if I can get a compressor map for this turbo. I haven't had great luck in the past but it's worth a try.

vwmikel

Vendor , w/Business number

#17

IndigoBlueWagon said:
Interesting idea, oilhammer. Perhaps. But I also wonder if this turbo would benefit from a manifold built for it.

Tomorrow I'm going to talk to my contact at Garrett and see if I can get a compressor map for this turbo. I haven't had great luck in the past but it's worth a try.

That's what the map that I posted was for but I'll be really curious if you get one and it happens to be different.

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor

#18

Well the BHW manifold may at least be a starting point. It already bolts to the TDI cylinder head, and it has a flat 3-bolt flange just like your Bimmer turbo pictured (although the stud spacing may be different).

Seems like with a turbo THAT large, something else would be the limiting factor, like the engine's valve size. In other words, how big is too big, and what are the numbers for the 8 valve TDI's maximum airflow through the head? I do not know the answers, I merely present the questions.

In other words, where do the flow limits of the engine proper lay, and are highly modded ones running out of air as it is?

mrchill

TDIClub Enthusiast, Super Secret Diesel Ninja Vend

#19

You are correct. One can tune out the smoke, but it also tends to introduce unwanted lag. And with the proper hardware and very careful tuning, once can achieve a flat hp "curve" and\or a flat torque "curve". It isnt easy, but can be done. 300\300 would be great on a race car. 200\300 is more like it on a street car. I agree 300 ft\lbs at under 2500 is a lot..and driven improperly will break stuff. I had my tune changed 3 years ago to smooth the power delivery when my hardware increased the initial torque too high. Careful tuning with the correct harware will get you the curve you want without a giant turbo. But if you want giant numbers too...then I see why you are going that way.

I

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/

#20

vwmikel, what's not to like about this kind of a dyno chart?

Power curve is pretty flat. This is from btcost's car, set up very similarly to how I have my track golf set up now. Good torque down low, but also good HP at the top end. btcost really benefited in this dyno from the FMIC, because IATs didn't dial back his boost, fuel, and timing.

oilhammer, you're absolutely right. To make this turbo work well in an ALH a cam and porting would be essential. When I drove DbLog's car with the 2056 you could really feel the improved breathing at the top end, and I think it's in part because of the head work he's had done.

Jeff believes PDs can move a lot more air at the top end, and that the turbine is the point of restriction. If he wants I'm willing to send him one of these turbos so he can test that thoery. Might be an interesting dyno.

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor

#21

I agree the PDs do seem to pull in a more linear fashion clear up to redline, stock or otherwise. Not the sudden, short-lived, "rear-ended-by-a-dumptruck" feeling the VEs often have. But it would seem that fueling and software is the difference there, as the intake/exhaust manifolds, ports, and turbo seem so similar to the VNT VEs.

TdiRacing

Vendor

#22

Hope mine is in the mail....

Waiting...

vwmikel

Vendor , w/Business number

#23

IndigoBlueWagon said:
vwmikel, what's not to like about this kind of a dyno chart?

Power curve is pretty flat. This is from btcost's car, set up very similarly to how I have my track golf set up now. Good torque down low, but also good HP at the top end. btcost really benefited in this dyno from the FMIC, because IATs didn't dial back his boost, fuel, and timing.

oilhammer, you're absolutely right. To make this turbo work well in an ALH a cam and porting would be essential. When I drove DbLog's car with the 2056 you could really feel the improved breathing at the top end, and I think it's in part because of the head work he's had done.

Jeff believes PDs can move a lot more air at the top end, and that the turbine is the point of restriction. If he wants I'm willing to send him one of these turbos so he can test that thoery. Might be an interesting dyno.

Wouldn't it be nice if it could sustain that torque longer? I agree, that one is better than a lot of them that I see, but I still think there's room for improvement with better breathing. Head work is definitely a good idea and the point I'm really trying to drive home here is that the engine is a system. A hybrid just moves the bottleneck to the turbine. A giant turbo just moves the bottleneck to the cylinder head, etc. The stock turbo was VW's attempt to build boost by brute force and I really don't think we should be following their path.

oilhammer said:
I agree the PDs do seem to pull in a more linear fashion clear up to redline, stock or otherwise. Not the sudden, short-lived, "rear-ended-by-a-dumptruck" feeling the VEs often have. But it would seem that fueling and software is the difference there, as the intake/exhaust manifolds, ports, and turbo seem so similar to the VNT VEs.

Similar, but not the same. The PD has better ports and the fueling capabilities are vastly superior.

TdiRacing

Vendor

#24

Here is some TDI porn for you...

Massive 14" and only weighs 1.2 lbs over stock brake set-up....

You need some larger brakes to go with that turbo... I always go the other way...brakes, suspension, then make it fast...LOL

I

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/

#25

vwmikel, I completely agree that we're chasing around points of restriction. One reason I was comfortable with the 17/22 on my Golf was that I didn't have the time or investment available to do head and cam work right now. I was willing to be happy with 160/280 or thereabouts, especially in a 2500 lb. car. With head work I'll need a bigger turbo. With a bigger turbo I'll need more fuel. Then the head gasket will be at risk. It goes on.

To be brutally honest, I think 160-180/280 or so is a reasonable limit for the ALH if you plan to really use the power (not just a dyno pull or a hot run up an onramp). The PDs seem to be able to do more like 200-220 in similar circumstances. And the 16 valve engines are producing 240-250. That's why I'm thinking my next upgrade to the Golf may be a 16 valve PD, if Jeff can figure out the ECU and programming.

I

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/

#26

Oliver, I can send yours out tomorrow if you want. And I don't want to stop, just go. Instead of adding brakes I'm subtacting lbs.

TDikook

Top Post Dawg

#27

WOW!! watching intently on all findings.
my one big question which has been adressed here is that the 17/22 has a very limiting factor on its turbine side( the 17) now how much bigger and difficult to get in motion is the 22? I too believe the whole setup of a straight VNT22(hot and cold side) is vastly better than just a compressor side of a 22 and a turbine side of the 17. my concern is drivability. Turbo lag sucks, and I lived with it for about a year with my progression of upgrades. and if low end pressure(1500-2200 rpm) is not enough to properly propel the wheel then there is a problem with drivability, racing doesnt have that concern as it is all top end.

Very interested in all findings. Keep up the good work.

Eric B

Farfromovin

Torque Addict

#28

I'm sure the turbo will "propel the wheel" quicker than any stock TDI turbo. It'll just feel different. Instead of that rush at 1800 rpm, it'll be at 3000, and a helluva lot more...

shadowmaker

Veteran Member

#29

vwmikel said:
The problem I have with that assessment is that it seems to peak at a 2.6 PR at 145,000 RPM, but this one below makes it all the way past 2.8 at 155,000 RPM....and it's at a much higher flow rate.

So this would be impossible?

But it's not.

260kw = 354hp. It's not a 1,9tdi, but still the same turbo with ~2,0bar (PR=3).

I would consider this turbo as the best small frame vnt there is at the moment with really good low end capability. It can make ~1,5bar @ 2000rpm on a 1.9TDI. With this one you should keep an eye with EMP.

TDikook

Top Post Dawg

#30

shadowmaker said:
I would consider this turbo as the best small frame vnt there is at the moment with really good low end capability. It can make ~1,5bar @ 2000rpm on a 1.9TDI. With this one you should keep an eye with EMP.

Shadow, that is the best arguement I have heard so far. 1.5 Bar,~ roughly 21 psi @ 2000 rpm is very considerable. that to me, equates very drivable scenarios. I am SOO interested in this.

Eric B

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