NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

Drive said:

Pizeos can deliver 7 inections per cycle and solenoids are limited to 5. I suggest that bhtooefr provide his source to the contrary.

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Hello, You are new here. Welcome!

Toof is a known quantity. You are not. Your information is very interesting and we would like to know your sources so that we may learn.

Thanks,

Bill

http://www.mtz-worldwide.com/index....3jgnlt1&smart42SID=n1src9jtuc9ag5ktflo3jgnlt1

I'll note that three pilots and four posts - when you add the one main injection - means that the solenoids can do eight injections.

bhtooefr said:

http://www.mtz-worldwide.com/index....3jgnlt1&smart42SID=n1src9jtuc9ag5ktflo3jgnlt1

I'll note that three pilots and four posts - when you add the one main injection - means that the solenoids can do eight injections.

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And boom goes the dynamite!

bhtooefr said:

http://www.mtz-worldwide.com/index....3jgnlt1&smart42SID=n1src9jtuc9ag5ktflo3jgnlt1

I'll note that three pilots and four posts - when you add the one main injection - means that the solenoids can do eight injections.

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That's your interpretation...the article doesn't say that...it only says they can achieve comparable emissions...I see the article is from 2010.

See http://sharpautos.wordpress.com/2013/04/03/injector-comparision-piezo-vs-solenoid/


See http://content.yudu.com/A27nm8/autodesmayjun13/resources/22.htm?skipFlashCheck=true and

regarding piezos...as well as http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/9909

Article is from 2011.

"Yet not even COSI will bring solenoid injection to the precision level and speed of piezo technology, Greff believes"

Toofs' Article said:

The number of injections over vehicle lifetime had increased continually during the last years. For optimized emissions and reduced noise, up to 3 pilot injections are used. The exhaust gas treatment needs up to 4 post injections.

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Oh well,

Bill

The issue is injections per power stroke.

From myturbodiesel.com:

In addition, the Passat TDI engine and HPFP is different from the Jetta-Golf-Sportwagen. VW lowered the fuel injection pressure, raised the fuel line pressure, and changed the pump/injectors which may increase reliability. The Passat HPFP has a longer stroke, its piston and bearing have a different finish, and the pump body is slightly different. VW also changed the piezo injectors on the Jetta-Golf-Sportwagen with solenoid injectors for unknown reasons. The newest (2014+) generation Golf-Audi A3 TDI engine also changed to solenoid injectors. Although the engine is rated for the same power as the Jetta-Golf engines, the turbo is slightly smaller which brings on the power slightly lower. Combined with slightly different tuning, it compensates for the heavier car.

The injection pressure on the Passat is 1800 bar...this means that if it uses a Bosch solenoid it uses the CRS2-18 which has a minimum Injection separation time of 350 microseconds. The Bosch piezo is the CRS3-20 which has a minimum injection separation time of 200 microseconds.

Regardless of the technical capabilities of piezo versus solenoid ... It's pretty darn likely that the calibration engineers have been working overtime in the last few years, and have succeeded in finding a setup that complies with current and near-term-future emission regulations while staying within the capabilities of the (presumably less-expensive) solenoid injectors and using a little less injection pressure in the interest of putting less stress on everything.

Just because a really high-tech solution exists doesn't mean you have to use it, especially if you find a way to not need it ...

GoFaster said:

Regardless of the technical capabilities of piezo versus solenoid ... It's pretty darn likely that the calibration engineers have been working overtime in the last few years, and have succeeded in finding a setup that complies with current and near-term-future emission regulations while staying within the capabilities of the (presumably less-expensive) solenoid injectors and using a little less injection pressure in the interest of putting less stress on everything.

Just because a really high-tech solution exists doesn't mean you have to use it, especially if you find a way to not need it ...

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Slower, cheaper, better

Service bulletin - RE: misfueling guard

So I got mine a month ago or so and thought to myself, "NO WAY am I taking my car to the dealer to have the damn little door installed"! Then I always come check in the forums and have read more of the failures and of course found myself here..... wondering now, if getting that installed my help the cause if my pump ever fails down the line, outside of warranty??

Does anyone know, are they installing the misfueling guard as part of the service being done on cars that have pumps replaced that DID NOT come from the factory with them?

I have 108k on the clock in my 2009 TDI Jetta, bought it used (from the same dealer that it was originally purchased from) and plan to drive it for at least another 100k if not more. It's not looking too likely that they are going to recall to replace the pumps, anytime soon...

*Is there a thread for the filters setups that might save the rest of the system from a catastrophic failure??

Thanks folks!

Mrrogers1 said:

*Is there a thread for the filters setups that might save the rest of the system from a catastrophic failure??

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Here's some reading for you. The latest info and ordering info is all in here somewhere.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=375803
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=389392
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=371988

Have Fun!

Don

JSWTDI09 said:

Here's some reading for you. The latest info and ordering info is all in here somewhere.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=375803
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=389392
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=371988

Have Fun!

Don

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Thank you Don

Sent from my One using Tapatalk 4

Just had a HPFP failure at 52k

I started to read these forums just AFTER I bought a JSW TDI in May of 2011.I love the car but was afraid of the HPFP failure. As the title says mine failed at 52k. I know there hasn't been any gasoline in the car and I have always used fuel that is either straight diesel or 5% bio-diesel just like the manual says.
I am employed in the automotive manufacturing industry and have decent mechanical knowledge. I can flatly state there is an issue with these pumps from the manufactures side. No question about it.Not even debatable.
I am not a VW "guy" or enthusiast,I bought car so I could have power and good fuel mileage. It was the only affordable diesel sold in the US at the time I bought it.
My situation right now is this: VW will cover the cost of fixing the car as they should and I am very pleased that they are giving me no grief what-so-ever. They are paying for the towing costs and the rental car I am driving for the week it takes them to fix it.Kudos to them they have done right by me.
However I am looking to sell the car. My guess is that this problem will happen again. The resale value of an old TDI will be affected by this problem down the road. My feeling is it is better to bail now and cut my losses. Unfortunately I just bought 4 new tires for the car that are waiting to be installed.( The pump failed while I was on the phone with the tire installer).

Steve47 said:

However I am looking to sell the car. My guess is that this problem will happen again. The resale value of an old TDI will be affected by this problem down the road. My feeling is it is better to bail now and cut my losses.

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I sold mine this past spring...I got over 18K for a 2010 with 38K miles. However, I just saw a new 2013 in the local paper for 18,699.00. I know the '13's aren't as nice as the '10's, but, that's a significant competitor to a used one on the market at the same time. I feel very fortunate to unload mine when I did.

I still hope that VW/Bosch will fix the darn HPFP issue, because I would definitely consider owning a small turbo diesel once again, if they did.

Wish NTHSA would publish pictures of failed pumps v new unused pumps so we can see what is actually going on.

Blackheart said:

However, I just saw a new 2013 in the local paper for 18,699.00.

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That's an odd price for a new car. Maybe it is an insurance writeoff with a salvage title (e.g. due to flooding)? Of course this only concerns someone who wants to sell the car; and only if there is one available at this low price at the exact time when you are trying to sell.

Diesl said:

That's an odd price for a new car. Maybe it is an insurance writeoff with a salvage title (e.g. due to flooding)? Of course this only concerns someone who wants to sell the car; and only if there is one available at this low price at the exact time when you are trying to sell.

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It's Southtowne VW in Salt Lake City, and advertised in the Salt Lake paper as 16,XXX...after the customer's 2000.00 downpayment....so, I just added 2000 to get 18,XXX. I could have the exact number wrong. They could also be using this as a sucker-lure, I don't know.

I DO know a story told by one of my buddies about Southtowne; he has the Jetta 2.0 TDI and he asked his service advisor if they had done any of the HPFP replacement/repairs...the advisor reportedly said to my friend: "Never heard of that problem." That was in the Winter of 2012. Of course, there is published evidence that they had done more than a dozen by that time......

LRTDI said:

Wish NTHSA would publish pictures of failed pumps v new unused pumps so we can see what is actually going on.

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No need for NHTSA to do it ... it's been done right here on this very forum. Read this thread ... it's long, but it is ALL in there: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=284441

These threads share something. Length and the distress the issue has caused people.

it would be nice if NHTSA would publish the status of the investigation, it has been 9 months since the last documents posted, and no words...

Probably can't post anything until they have a final determination. Hopefully, that final decision will be in our favor.

kjclow said:

Probably can't post anything until they have a final determination. Hopefully, that final decision will be in our favor.

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all i was asking is something like: "we are still working on it!" or "we are finishing reviewing all the docs, we are almost done" or "we should have a final decision made around X date" or something like this!

Typical bureaucrat behavior. Milk a task for as long as possible. Job security thingy.

Ski in NC said:

Typical bureaucrat behavior. Milk a task for as long as possible. Job security thingy.

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Not sure about that. If I had to guess I'd assume that most of the people there probably believe what they are doing helps other people.

Yeah, I was thinking, a scenario of telling your boss the government bureaucrat that the job is finished and you have nothing else to do... ain't gonna happen.

"Work expands to fill the time available for its completion" - Parkinson's Law

TM

Of course, sequestration has put a hold on so many agencies, I would not be surprised if NTHSA has been impacted.

SalsaRed2010 said:

Of course, sequestration has put a hold on so many agencies, I would not be surprised if NTHSA has been impacted.

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Thanks for the chuckle.

Ski in NC said:

Typical bureaucrat behavior. Milk a task for as long as possible. Job security thingy.

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My guess is that the technical people got their part of the job done. The lawyers want to cross every "i" and dot every "t." Agencies are very litigation sensitive, but it means that issuing these decisions takes a lot of time and management briefings, given how high profile these kinds of cases are. You can probably look up how much sequestration as affected NHSTA (or DOT as a whole), but at this point most agencies have gotten fewer than six days furlough per employee.

Sequestration has had more effects than just furloughs. Hiring is down. People are not being replaced. Job duties are moved around and reorganized as someone leaves instead.

Budgets are down. Non essential purchases and expenditures are being delayed. How important is publishing the findings of this investigation when viewed against public safety? How much does it cost to publish? If they publish this one and then don't have the money to publish another report that has a higher impact on safety, what are the ramifications?

kydsid said:

Sequestration has had more effects than just furloughs. Hiring is down. People are not being replaced. Job duties are moved around and reorganized as someone leaves instead.

Budgets are down. Non essential purchases and expenditures are being delayed. How important is publishing the findings of this investigation when viewed against public safety? How much does it cost to publish? If they publish this one and then don't have the money to publish another report that has a higher impact on safety, what are the ramifications?

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Yeah, they cancelled our furloughs when Congress discovered that furloughing Air Traffic Controllers would actually impact them, but other areas of our budget are really hurting. Our travel budget is virtually gone, and people that retire/transfer are not getting replaced on a one-for-one basis. I can't speak for other agencies, but losing even 2-3 people from our office hurts. When Asiana crashed at SFO, I was called in to activate our Situation Room. The overtime that day cost probably nixed at least one person's travel. Trust me, we don't travel unless we need to anyway.

Folks looking for some quick opinions on a 2011 Jetta TDI Highline that I may be looking to get into.

I am veering towards an auto as I have to drive through rush hour on the 401 highway.

Any opinions on an 2011 TDI Highline? Things to look out for etc. Is the TB change interval 160K too.

Thanks!