Rotella T6 in 2015 q7 TDI

petee_c

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Just wondering if anyone is running this?

I'm thinking about picking up a 5 gallon pail of it, and wondering if anyone is using it in their gen 2 3.0L TDI's? I've used it for the past 50K+ miles on my 06 BRM Jetta TDI.

We had a 2011 q7 TDI that is being bought back... I always used 507 oil in it, but given how dieselgate went, not sure I trust the VW engineers anymore...

T6 is a good oil, and it looks like it would be suitable for vehicles with DPF....
 

GreenLantern_TDI

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If you dont care about voiding your warranty. VW is very specific about 507. Most 507 oils seem to be of very good quality to me.
 

CleverUserName

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My experience with VW 507 was not positive. I ran 2 Used oil analysis and it did not hold up for 10k miles on a 4L sump. I believe VW engineers sacrificed engine longevity for emissions system longevity. Knowing what I do now I will never use a low saps oil again.

You can try mid saps like 505 or Dexos 2.
Or full HDEO CJ-4 in 5w40.

This oil is kinda middle of the road between mid saps and HDEO. https://www.ravenol.de/en/products/usage/d/Product/show/p/ravenol-ndt-nord-duty-truck-sae-5w-40.html
 

CleverUserName

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Do u have the analysis report so we can see these results?
No on mobile now.

It’s posted on bob is the oil guy.com.

TLDR: alkalinity (TBN) depleted at 10k interval w/ soft metal wear usually from corrosion. Second test at 8000 miles showed TBN at 2.5. Marginal but still OK. Never exceeded 7500-8k on oil change interval after testing.

You guys who run 10k without oil monitoring are relying on pure faith in VW engineering which is highly suspect after dieselgate.

I’d only do 10k on 507 if it was 100% freeway with minimal traffic. It’s just safer to change it early or use better oil IMO.
 
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oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I have several customers with over 300k miles on their CR engines running the proper 507.00 oil and they still run like new, with 10k mile intervals. I'd not worry about the oil.

If you do a DPF/EGR delete, you can even run them 25k miles between intervals....maybe more.

OP: I would only run the correct oil in your car, with a quality filter (Mann, Mahle, Hengst, Purflux, etc.), because VAG will gladly do ANYTHING they can to weasel out of any warranty claims should they arise. No need to tempt fate.
 
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CleverUserName

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10K OCI w/ VW 507 oil

Here is my 10K report. Ignore the 5w40 as that is a typo. It was Liqui Moly Top Tec 4200 5w30 in this sample.

 

CleverUserName

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So how is that not positive?
To much to explain, google how to read Oil reports and what is considered normal. This was a fully broken in engine on its 4th or 5th oil change.

When an oils alkalinity is depleted, as in this sample it becomes corrosive and starts attacking the softer metals used in bearings.

There shouldn’t be any bearing wear metals in a “good” sample. Bearing wear is abnormal and does not track with mileage like other metals. Iron and chromium for example.

Seeing Tin is a bad sign and not good for long term engine health.

The 2nd report I ran at 8k miles confirmed my assumptions. Although the base number was low, it still had reserve alkalinity and didn’t have any traces of tin.
 

turbobrick240

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My experience with VW 507 was not positive. I ran 2 Used oil analysis and it did not hold up for 10k miles on a 4L sump. I believe VW engineers sacrificed engine longevity for emissions system longevity. Knowing what I do now I will never use a low saps oil again.

You can try mid saps like 505 or Dexos 2.
Or full HDEO CJ-4 in 5w40.

This oil is kinda middle of the road between mid saps and HDEO. https://www.ravenol.de/en/products/usage/d/Product/show/p/ravenol-ndt-nord-duty-truck-sae-5w-40.html
I switched over to hdeo because my car doesn't require low saps anymore and it's cheaper and more available. Plus, now I use the same oil for my car, truck, and tractors. Your experience with 507 seems to be somewhat of an outlier. Most of the 507 UOA's look just fine at 10k miles. The fuel economy penalty resulting from going from 5w-30 to 5w-40 probably wipes out any savings on the oil itself.
 

CleverUserName

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Perhaps your TDI is still breaking-in, more urban driving, etc. ...
Most modern engines are fully broken in within 1,000 miles. And there were 4 oil changes before this sample so any residual break in metals were already flushed out.

My typical driving cycle consists of 70/30 to 60/40 Freeway/City driving %. I do not spend more than 5% in gridlock traffic or any other severe use category.

Note the following:

-High flashpoint, Low fuel dilution
-Oil has normal viscosity for a 30w (no shearing or oxidative thickening)
-Low insloluables
-Low silicon

All these factors above indicate the oil is in good shape, filtration was effective and no external factors caused the excessive engine wear. The only thing out of line is the base number is depleted so the oil has become acidic from accumulation of combustion by-products.

Also worth noting that I live in CA and our D#2 is > 53 cetane, the best in the country. I always used Chevron fuel as it gave me the best MPGs. So this isn't a fuel quality issue either.

In my experience, VW 507 oil did not hold up in normal usage for the manufacturers recommended OCI. If you search BITOG.com you will find other 507 reports like mine, with high wear and depleted TBN at 10k or less.
If the CBEA would have been equipped with a 6 qt sump like the MK VII cars, there would be enough dilution to maintain alkalinity for 10K.

VW engineering screwed up or the executives made a business decision to carry over the oil sump from the BRM and it is too small for this application IMO.

With all that said. If you assume that VW 507 oil will protect your TDI, you are sadly mistaken-especially if you have a CBEA, CKRA or CJAA with a small oil sump. It took me many years to realize this and I will never use a low saps oil again in any diesel application.
 

CleverUserName

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Here is my second sample @ 8000 miles.

Base Number is marginal @ 2.5

Same oil, Top Tec 4200 5w30

No Tin detected.

 

turbobrick240

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These tdi's aren't anywhere close to fully broken in at 1000 miles. I wouldn't just assume that you are always getting excellent quality fuel. I've personally witnessed a service station owner dumping used motor oil into his underground fuel tank. More commonly the tanks can have all manner of water and sludge in them. Or it could have been a subpar batch of 4200 that you got. The vast majority of CR tdi owners use 507 oils, and I haven't heard of a single tired, worn out engine yet.
 

tikal

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These tdi's aren't anywhere close to fully broken in at 1000 miles. I wouldn't just assume that you are always getting excellent quality fuel. I've personally witnessed a service station owner dumping used motor oil into his underground fuel tank. More commonly the tanks can have all manner of water and sludge in them. Or it could have been a subpar batch of 4200 that you got. The vast majority of CR tdi owners use 507 oils, and I haven't heard of a single tired, worn out engine yet.
Concur with the above.

My bet would be that if you ask Blackstone Labs and others (millions of miles accumulated in their databases), the answer is 507 oils meet the requirements for today's TDIs and other light duty diesels with even a generous margin of safety.
 

CleverUserName

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These tdi's aren't anywhere close to fully broken in at 1000 miles. I wouldn't just assume that you are always getting excellent quality fuel. I've personally witnessed a service station owner dumping used motor oil into his underground fuel tank. More commonly the tanks can have all manner of water and sludge in them. Or it could have been a subpar batch of 4200 that you got. The vast majority of CR tdi owners use 507 oils, and I haven't heard of a single tired, worn out engine yet.
Most modern diesels are broken in at the factory. They run diagnostics and hot and cold test the engine assemblies using special lubricants which pre-seats the rings. That is why they come with synthetic oil and not mineral oil on the factory fill. Not sure what VW did on the CRs but that is what is done now. Either way my first test was at 35K so the engine was already broken in

CA mandates diesel fuel quality standards. They also spot test periodically to ensure minimum standards are met and issue expensive fines for non-compliance. Its not like other states that follow the minimum federal standard so you can't really compare your experience. It's not relevant.

Those two analysis were two different lots of TT 4200. The first one was from a 20L jug and the second was a 5L jug. Purchased over a year apart.

2 bad batches? If so LM has some serious QC issues. Not likely.

There are other used oil analysis results like mine using VW 507 oils. Its not unusual. If you google search you can find them. Ironically, I've seen some reports that were posted after a switch from 507 to CJ-4 and see wear metal reduced by half or more. Is this reduction in wear significant? I think so. I guess it depends on what value you place on an oil report.
 
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oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
There is no factory break in on VAG engines. They get started for the first time at the end of the line, when the car is driven off the assembly floor, same as any other mass produced model.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Yes, nonsense quoted from someone who doesn't know any better (the quoted part, not the person that posted).

That was debunked a long time ago.

The "testing" is done with the car whole, the "end of line" check (you can actually do this with VCDS on most models).

Think about it. VAG builds ~10 MILLION cars a year, not counting the significant number of engines they build for marine and industrial use. Do you honestly think they'll pay to do all that on each one??? Porsche doesn't even do that, they randomly pull ONE engine out of about 100 off the line for stand checks.

Quality control being what it is, you can be assured that the vast majority of engines (as well as the rest of the car) are build exactly the same, so jumping through all these hoops is not necessary. If an engine is going to have a major mechanical problem related to assembly, it'll happen quickly after the car is build/sold/driven and will almost certainly be under warranty anyway. It would cost a company as big as Volkswagen LESS to just fix those few that slip through the cracks than it would to test run every engine on every car it assembles.

While I have no issue with UOA, I do think a lot of people get too wound up worrying about them... and the fact that anyone would even pay as much as they cost to have done says that to me. These are mass produced bread and butter cars, they are not exotics, not some hand build racing engines, or anything close. The engine proper is pretty solid, and they have proven to be over and over again. The turbocharger is a weak spot, but that is I feel a victim of aggressive emission control in which case the intentional overfueling and reduced air flow required to crank the EGTs up to regenerate the DPF places extra stresses in the form of heat in play. The poor turbo is just caught in the middle, and I doubt the motor oil itself has anything to do with that.

And FWIW, the CBEA will ALWAYS have much more bearing wear metals in its oil for the first 100k miles than the CJAA does, same as the BHW did over the BEW. And the CBEA has it probably even more because it already left the factory with a gear drive that has a sacrificial coating.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Oilhammer's post just demonstrates to me that we don't know as much as the people designing and building these engines, and second-guessing them, even with third party data, isn't terribly useful.

Truth is that a properly driven and maintained modern engine will probably last longer than most people want to drive the car it's in. Use the oil the manufacturer recommends and stop worrying about it. Otherwise you may well make things worse instead of better.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
...except for the EA888. Those turds die no matter what. Another one just got towed in. Almost made it to 100k. Almost.... :eek:
 

CleverUserName

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Yes, nonsense quoted from someone who doesn't know any better (the quoted part, not the person that posted).
That was debunked a long time ago.
The "testing" is done with the car whole, the "end of line" check (you can actually do this with VCDS on most models).
Think about it. VAG builds ~10 MILLION cars a year, not counting the significant number of engines they build for marine and industrial use. Do you honestly think they'll pay to do all that on each one??? Porsche doesn't even do that, they randomly pull ONE engine out of about 100 off the line for stand checks.
Quality control being what it is, you can be assured that the vast majority of engines (as well as the rest of the car) are build exactly the same, so jumping through all these hoops is not necessary. If an engine is going to have a major mechanical problem related to assembly, it'll happen quickly after the car is build/sold/driven and will almost certainly be under warranty anyway. It would cost a company as big as Volkswagen LESS to just fix those few that slip through the cracks than it would to test run every engine on every car it assembles.
While I have no issue with UOA, I do think a lot of people get too wound up worrying about them... and the fact that anyone would even pay as much as they cost to have done says that to me. These are mass produced bread and butter cars, they are not exotics, not some hand build racing engines, or anything close. The engine proper is pretty solid, and they have proven to be over and over again. The turbocharger is a weak spot, but that is I feel a victim of aggressive emission control in which case the intentional overfueling and reduced air flow required to crank the EGTs up to regenerate the DPF places extra stresses in the form of heat in play. The poor turbo is just caught in the middle, and I doubt the motor oil itself has anything to do with that.
And FWIW, the CBEA will ALWAYS have much more bearing wear metals in its oil for the first 100k miles than the CJAA does, same as the BHW did over the BEW. And the CBEA has it probably even more because it already left the factory with a gear drive that has a sacrificial coating.
An oil analysis kit is $10. $14 all in including shipping. That's two lattes at Starbucks. Its not expensive.

I don't know what VW did with assembly testing with the CR, already said that. However, I do know that most other manufacters who make diesel engines do hot and cold test while on a bench to break them in. Even GM does it with the puny 2.8 Duramax. It's part of the QC process.

Does the gear drive use babbit material as the sacrificial coating? That doesn't seem likely...

Oilhammer's post just demonstrates to me that we don't know as much as the people designing and building these engines, and second-guessing them, even with third party data, isn't terribly useful.

Truth is that a properly driven and maintained modern engine will probably last longer than most people want to drive the car it's in. Use the oil the manufacturer recommends and stop worrying about it. Otherwise you may well make things worse instead of better.
Blind faith in engineering is flawed. Multiple manufacturers have made questionable oil recommendations based on CAFE requirements, product conformity or emissions compatibility. Even VAG did it with the RS4, 502 was not suitable for protecting that engine at the specified interval.

FCA also did it with the Ram EcoDiesel. C3 did not provide adequate protection for the L630 which caused multiple big end and rod bearing failures. CJ-4 was the new specification from 2016 onwards.

BMW also made oil related blunders. The list goes on and on.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Blind faith in engineering is flawed. Multiple manufacturers have made questionable oil recommendations based on CAFE requirements, product conformity or emissions compatibility. Even VAG did it with the RS4, 502 was not suitable for protecting that engine at the specified interval.

FCA also did it with the Ram EcoDiesel. C3 did not provide adequate protection for the L630 which caused multiple big end and rod bearing failures. CJ-4 was the new specification from 2016 onwards.

BMW also made oil related blunders. The list goes on and on.
OK. Hard to argue with those examples. I remember the EcoDiesel issues. Happened to meet a Mopar engineer at a TDI GTG who said it was the fuel economy standard that held sway for the 30 weight.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
An oil analysis kit is $10. $14 all in including shipping. That's two lattes at Starbucks. Its not expensive.
.
Exactly, so it'll take ~$100 (at least) of your money to provide any trend one way or the other. All you have provided is anecdote.

You'd need to have a UOA done over a time period of several service intervals of various oil types in several identical CBEA engines driven in similar fashion.

Actually, it will likely cost a couple hundred to do that.

If you'd like to pay for it, send me several sample kits and I will provide the oil, although it may be some time as many of the 2009s are gone which will only leave the Audi A3s through 2014 as they still used the CBEA. Although I'd think a CJAA after 100k miles should be broken in enough to negate the mechanical differences, but maybe not.

You have my word I will be absolutely fair and honest and thorough in sample gathering. As I stated, I have a couple with over 300k miles I can sample from.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
So what engine codes are EA888s?

The CCTA is the most infamous. The direct injected 2.0L turbo gas and current 1.8L gas engines are of the EA888 engine family.

This is why I had to laugh at the comment "blind faith in engineering", because I absolutely do NOT have that, at all, whatsoever... LMAO.... the EA888s confirm that to me on a weekly basis.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I guess I've just been fortunate in my engine choices. Or, in the past, didn't keep cars long enough for them to fail. :)
 
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