Injection pump priming

kooyajerms

grocery getter
Joined
May 5, 2004
Location
Pomona, Southern California
TDI
97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
Just did the R & R on the top middle seals and the head seal for the injection pump. My QA needed replacement, so i did the rest.

Ok I've read a bunch of threads on IP priming.

Attach the mityvac to the fuel return line that is coming from the top of the injection pump going into the ThermoTee on the fuel filter.

Cover the end of the end of the thermo tee that is now exposed.
All fuel lines are attached and on tight.

Pump the mityvac to keep vacuum, bringin fuel from the filter/tank into the pump and then into the clear line attached to your mity vac.


Now how long are you guys all pumping this freakin thing??? I was going 5 minutes, and MY ARMS ARE SO TIRED. left hand, switch, right. switch left. switch to double arm sqeezing, move to one hand with the other assisting. 10 minutes I heard from some of the posts...

How do you guys keep that vacuum up? I'm getting it up to 20psi but usually 15 psi. It drops slowly, about 5 psi every 2 seconds. Does that mean I have a leak somewhere? Does the fuel filter being "open" matter when I'm priming?

I checked the seals again, and the head seal was in place, the top and QA were fine. So I thought readjusting would be good. Still can't get that vacuum to pull the fuel hard enough. I can get a bit to move in the clear line, but I can't get it into the pump!!! ARGH


Wish I had a way to push the fuel into the pump, but no electric pump.





Lastly, having the pump not totally filled with fuel for a long period of time, is that bad? I mean it's glistening with fuel, but it's still not primed.

Thanks. Jeremy
 

jasonTDI

TDI GURU Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Apr 26, 2001
Location
Oregon, WI
TDI
20' RAM 3500 CCLB dually HO/Aisan. 2019 Cherokee 2.0T
Use your oil extractor to prime it. Much easier. Generally until it stops bubbling or at least just a bit. I pump it, and leave it alone for 10-15 minutes with an occasional re-pump. A quick crack of the injectors, #1 and #3 and it starts in a few revolutions.

Leaving it sit empty won't hurt it.
 

paramedick

TDIClub Enthusiast, Vendor
Joined
Jul 29, 2001
Location
Versailles, Kentucky
TDI
2015 Audi Q5 TDI
It does take awhile with the mityvac. Pump, pump, pump until you see the fuel. Then, hold it higher than the pump while a bunch of little bubbles migrate out of the pump. When the bubbles are gone, release vacuum and reconnect to filter.
 

w8aii

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2002
Location
Toledo, OH
TDI
Jetta, 2ØØ2, Blk
IP Priming...

Crack all the lines connecting to the injectors, then spin the car over until you see fuel start to squirt from the injector lines. Tighten everything down tight and it'll start...

That is what I had to do when I replaced my IP head seal a month back...
 

jasonTDI

TDI GURU Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Apr 26, 2001
Location
Oregon, WI
TDI
20' RAM 3500 CCLB dually HO/Aisan. 2019 Cherokee 2.0T
Yeah, LOL I forget to mention that. It takes a LOT longer to bleed otherwise.
 

kooyajerms

grocery getter
Joined
May 5, 2004
Location
Pomona, Southern California
TDI
97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
OH MY GOODNESS. no one ever states that... =p.

I'm gonna go try with the key on.

SOMEONE STICKY THAT IN THEIR BRAIN
 

kooyajerms

grocery getter
Joined
May 5, 2004
Location
Pomona, Southern California
TDI
97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
hrm still can't get that fuel in the filter to the pump. just SITS THERE TAUNTING ME.

Don't have a pela =(


I've done the crank the car with injectors open a couple times already, don't know how much more the battery and starter can take. I'd like to see SOME fuel in there before I try that again.

I'm just not seeing the fuel, and I'm sure I had no big leak issues (the QA seal, wasn't causing any performance issues at the time,
 

w8aii

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2002
Location
Toledo, OH
TDI
Jetta, 2ØØ2, Blk
Fill the fuel filter with Power Service and then use your MightyVac on the return line off of the IP until you get guel in the clear line of the MightyVac... Then crack the lines and crank it...
 

kooyajerms

grocery getter
Joined
May 5, 2004
Location
Pomona, Southern California
TDI
97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
That's normal status, I've primed before. It's just not doing it this time. I'm gonna put on a new head seal again, maybe I pinched that one on install.

I see those ... I know you are saying duh each time, and yes duh idiot is implied in those ... It's not working.

DOT DOT DOT
 

jasonTDI

TDI GURU Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Apr 26, 2001
Location
Oregon, WI
TDI
20' RAM 3500 CCLB dually HO/Aisan. 2019 Cherokee 2.0T
You have a MK3? You need to plug the return line from the pump to the filter. That'll solve the issue.
 

kooyajerms

grocery getter
Joined
May 5, 2004
Location
Pomona, Southern California
TDI
97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
if I am plugging the return line from the pump to the filter. Then where is the mityvac putting the suction? (I'm using a cat filter)

I thought I block up the thermo tee, and pull from the return line?
 

jasonTDI

TDI GURU Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Apr 26, 2001
Location
Oregon, WI
TDI
20' RAM 3500 CCLB dually HO/Aisan. 2019 Cherokee 2.0T
You have it right, just though that you were not blocking off the tee, or the line connected to it.
 

LanduytG

Vendor
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Location
Greenfield, IN
TDI
99 NB 82 Westfalia Diesel
weedeater said:
BTW: you had the key turned on, right? (to open the fuel cutoff solenoid)

Does not make a bit of difference if the key is on or off. The shutoff is not inline with anything. Fuel goes through the feed pump and fills the pump body. Having to go through the feed pump is what slows things down.

How long will it hold a vacuum? It should only take a little bit get it to 20"hg and it will go down real slow. I think you said it went down in a few seconds. If thats the case you have a leak somewhere in the system. Would be my guess the head seal since thats what you had off. When putting them on make sure you lube the o-ring very well and most of all pull it up evenly.

Greg
 
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kooyajerms

grocery getter
Joined
May 5, 2004
Location
Pomona, Southern California
TDI
97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
Yeah i did the top and QA seal but I'm sure it's not them. So my car is out of commission for a couple days while i wait for another Viton seal from dieselgeek. I don't want to waste my time with the one in the Bosch kit and have to do it again.

I'll let you guys know how it goes.
 

B100

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Location
Berkeley, Eastbania
TDI
2003 Golf
I primed my IP yesterday with an IV bottle suspended from a telephone pole, it was full and had stopped bubbling in a few minutes. I ran the car like this to verify IP was in good shape, then reconnected to car and watched the bubbles purge out of the filter.

Funny thing, if I push fuel into the IP, like with a small syringe, I get a leak from about middle section on the front. But no leak while it's running...:confused:

My question: does the CAT filter setup definitively solve the air leak problem at the thermo-tee fitting? I've replaced o-rings there on stock filter, but I seem to have a perpetual air leak there which siphones fuel back to the tank, leaving IP dry after several days sitting.
 

mrGutWrench

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 29, 2002
Location
Carrboro, NC
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon, 5-speed, 563K Miles (July '23)
B100 said:
(snip) My question: does the CAT filter setup definitively solve the air leak problem at the thermo-tee fitting? I've replaced o-rings there on stock filter, but I seem to have a perpetual air leak there which siphones fuel back to the tank, leaving IP dry after several days sitting.
__. IME, no it doesn't "solve" the problem - it just kind of moves it. However, it does make it easy to completely fix the problem. I modified the fitting for the thermo-tee -- I made a plate to go over it, pressing it down firmly with longer screws (easy to find at the hardware store). Then I found an O-ring that was a slip fit on the barrel of the tee (larger int-diameter than the stock ones) and I slid it on the barrel until it was all the way up. Then, I put the barrel into the bore on the CAT backing plate and put the plate over the top of the tee and then put in the screws. Tightening the screws just enough traps the new O-ring right at the top of the bore and seals it up tight. No more bubbles. (This was on my '02 sedan - I got the CAT filter from that car after it was totalled and it will be going on my new '03 wagon.) I'm told that the new CAT filter kits have a top plate like the one that I made to hold the tee.
 

B100

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Location
Berkeley, Eastbania
TDI
2003 Golf
mrGutWrench said:
__. IME, no it doesn't "solve" the problem - it just kind of moves it. However, it does make it easy to completely fix the problem. I modified the fitting for the thermo-tee -- I made a plate to go over it, pressing it down firmly with longer screws (easy to find at the hardware store). Then I found an O-ring that was a slip fit on the barrel of the tee (larger int-diameter than the stock ones) and I slid it on the barrel until it was all the way up. Then, I put the barrel into the bore on the CAT backing plate and put the plate over the top of the tee and then put in the screws. Tightening the screws just enough traps the new O-ring right at the top of the bore and seals it up tight. No more bubbles. (This was on my '02 sedan - I got the CAT filter from that car after it was totalled and it will be going on my new '03 wagon.) I'm told that the new CAT filter kits have a top plate like the one that I made to hold the tee.
Thanks, yes the current kit from Greg's shop has that top plate design - that sounds like a very clean and positive seal. I'll be ordering one shortly.
 

kooyajerms

grocery getter
Joined
May 5, 2004
Location
Pomona, Southern California
TDI
97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
When doing your injection pump head seal, make sure you don't leave the unshimmed bolt in. Or when you pull it out and the seal is touching it, this is what you get.


and an injection pump that won't prime.

Got a replacement and the prime was quick and easy, bubbles be gone!

Anyways, trying to start the car, I'm getting a bunch of rapidshot clicks and I can't get the starter to go at all. The RPM gauge goes up and as the clicks start, it rapidly stutters as it goes down to zero. I'm not getting any engine turning going on. Just loud rapid clicks.

It's been a week since I had tried to use the starter again, think I just need a jump? Usually when my battery dies though, the instrument cluster will shut off, or at least be dim. I can use the radio and such atm.

Stupid me, I checked the VAGCOM and I had a CEL (the glowplug light was flashing with the key in) that said short to ground on injection valve. Guess what I did real fast without thinking? cleared the CEL. So all I could think of was to reattach all the electrical plugs and the fuel cut off solenoid.

If anyone can get to me asap, I gotta get to work in 1 hour. I've been borrowing a car that is no longer available.

Jeremy
 

rdkern

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 21, 2004
Location
Humboldt Co CA
TDI
Passat 1997 silver (sold after 11 years), Jetta 2000 atlantic blue
This is for your A3? This sounds like what my B4 was doing right before I cleaned the grounds. In my case, the battery was very new, and when changing it, I suspect one of the grounds somehow got a tad tweaked. I could start my after disconnecting the negative pole of the battery to reset everything, then it would start. I finally cleaned the grounds after having to go rescue my wife. Haven't had the problem again.

For now, disconnect the ground for 10-20 seconds, reconnect (if you have an anti-theft alarm, you may need to turn that off when reconnecting). Then try it.
 

kooyajerms

grocery getter
Joined
May 5, 2004
Location
Pomona, Southern California
TDI
97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
Charging the battery as we speak, seems that was it thanks again bud

It's a movin, time to warm that battery up and get to work.
 
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mniceracer

Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2014
Location
mankato minnesota
TDI
99.5 jetta 2001 jetta 82 pickup mtdi 92 toyota alh work-in -progress
Hi all I`ve been reading suggestions about priming alh pumps and I still can`t find the answer to my problem so I guess it`s time to ask questions.

I`ve got an alh that I put in a Toyota and after a week of trying to get all the air out still no success.I`ve changed fuel lines and even went back to using two hoses in a fuel can the way it ran before I put it in the truck and still air air and more air.

I can get it to run good on 1 2 3 but not 4.When it`s running and I crack #4 I get lots of air that never stops.

I`ve worked a lot of diesels over the years and once you get enough air out to make it run they`ll remove the rest on their own.

I`m starting to wonder if it`s something electric but it seems to me if it were electrical it wouldn`t run at all.

I`ve been at this for a week and I`m very frustrated.It`s been almost a year since I started this build and I really want to drive this thing any help would be greatly appreciated
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
Good to see that you did some searching.

To clarify for me, running with both hoses in a jar you can crack the injector pipes sequentially while it's running and only get air from #4?

I can't come up with a reason that could happen. In the pump there's a common path for fuel for the four cylinders through the pump body until it gets to the pump head and at that point there's no way for air to get into one injector pipe and not the others.

The same high pressure plunger injects fuel to all four, rotating to select which one gets it.
 

mniceracer

Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2014
Location
mankato minnesota
TDI
99.5 jetta 2001 jetta 82 pickup mtdi 92 toyota alh work-in -progress
Thanks for the reply you`re absolutely right if there`s air in one there should be air in all of them or visa versa.

I just had it outside holding it at a fast idle hoping I could eventually get all the air out to no avail.
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
I agree KLXD's assessment. Doesn't make sense to be getting air out of just one injector line.

I use the contraption below to prime Injection Pumps.

It is works really great. The fuel is filter. It can be hung above the engine out of the way while you're working.

It is a Jeff Peanut butter jar (plastic), plastic fittings, JB Weld, etc. Simple to make. I made it August, 2012. Both the plastic jar and JB Weld are very compatible to diesel fuel and additives.

 

mniceracer

Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2014
Location
mankato minnesota
TDI
99.5 jetta 2001 jetta 82 pickup mtdi 92 toyota alh work-in -progress
I agree with both of you and that is a cool contraption for getting the air out to get it to run but this thing sat outside and ran on three cylinders for twenty minuets yesterday and when I crack each of those three lines it misses but I can leave #4 open all day and it just keeps pushing air out,it just seems it`s not building enough pressure.

It ran fine on the pallet before I put it in the truck the only things that have changed are a new timing set and the fuel lines.I`m wondering if there might have been some debris in the hose between the filter and the pump that`s keeping #4 from making enough pressure to fire.

I have other pumps I could try but that`s a last resort.
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
Again, nothing upstream of the pump would affect only one cylinder.

You sure there's air or is the problem is it's just not firing?

I'd try swapping injectors and maybe delivery valves with #1 or #2 before swapping the pump.
 

mniceracer

Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2014
Location
mankato minnesota
TDI
99.5 jetta 2001 jetta 82 pickup mtdi 92 toyota alh work-in -progress
I changed delivery valves and injectors and still a problem with #4,no more air and it does fire some but still not enough pressure to make it run right.

Since this is in a Toyota finding top dead center is more difficult so I`m considering just changing the pump head but I only have one spare 11mm pump and I don`t want to mess that up,any thoughts?
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
It's hard to believe there's a problem with the pump head that would only affect one cylinder.

The plunger rotates to align a port in its side with a port in the head for each cylinder. For one cylinder to be bad there would have to be damage to its port in the pump head. I suppose the #4 port could be damaged but how would that port get damaged (chipped?) without damaging the port in the plunger?

Have you checked the compression on #4?
 

mniceracer

Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2014
Location
mankato minnesota
TDI
99.5 jetta 2001 jetta 82 pickup mtdi 92 toyota alh work-in -progress
I know this sounds crazy I`m just as confused that`s why I`m here.Other than the electronics these pumps aren`t much different than the old ones they`re very simple and reliable.

I haven`t checked compression but I don`t think that`s the problem.When I crack the other three lines they shoot fuel out like they should but #4 doesn`t do that,fuel comes out but it doesn`t spray out like the rest.If I hadn`t run this on the floor before I put it in I might believe it was something internal.
 
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