Lube failure/damaged PD cam photos

dieseldorf · Feb 15, 2006

We all need to extend a "thanks" to forum brother vwrobert51 for going to the trouble of rounding up these photographs of the bad PD cam situation. Owner has had car serviced by "Jiffy Lube" without any consideration to VAG's highly specific oil requirement.

I hope we can keep the discussion civil and technical. Again, thank Robert for sharing this with us. He is one VW tech that does care.

Customer brought car into shop with following complaint:

"LOSS OF POWER WITH KNOCKING NOISE."

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

jnecr · Feb 15, 2006

Now that IS some significant wear and a good reason to use 505.01 oil...

Bob_Fout · Feb 15, 2006

Hmm..for those of non-technically inclined....what are we looking for in the pics? Wear/gauging?

eetsoot · Feb 15, 2006

Now could you hold Jiffy Lube liable for not checking what oil is to be used? They do claim to be dealer warranty compliant.

dieseldorf · Feb 15, 2006

Original "discussion" from a few months ago...

vwrobert51 · Feb 15, 2006

THANKS DIESELDORF FOR POSTING PHOTOS FOR ME. update history as far as i know, what you see is wear damage on cam from use of non 50501 oil, also just to clear up oil changes ,were done at outside quick lube shop (not known if it was jiffey lube) ,but of that type of shop, cust had reciepts for all oil changes,(5w-30w) regular oil. none from dealer, car has about 40k miles, and you guest it NO WARANTY!! it went through litigation and the owner lost! so their you have it ! if your not running 50501 YOU BETTER CHANGE NOW !!!!! you all wanted photos now you have it, enjoy.

have a nice day!!!

compu_85 · Feb 15, 2006

yes... if someone could put some arrows on the pictures, with an explination of what is going on, it would help educate us noobies

How many miles were on this poor engine? EDIT: Ah, 40k. That's not really that long

-Jason

vwrobert51 · Feb 15, 2006

I Can Just Here All The Pella Pumps Running ,and The Run On 50501 Oil At The Dealer, Hope They Got Enough,

whitedog · Feb 15, 2006

One picture shows wear and some blueing on an injector roller but from what I can see it looks like most of the damage is on the valve lobes not to discount the damage to the injector roller if the 505.01 spec is because of the high pressures of the unit injectors why the damage to the valve lobes?

weedeater · Feb 15, 2006

I can hear it now...

RUN, FORREST! RUN!

Long_Range · Feb 15, 2006

Looks like the rocker arm roller in pic #2 may have heated up and siezed rotation.

The cam may not be the worst of it. With group II 5W-30 from the hose the top rings would be about stuck with carbon by now. Would be interesting to find out what oil was used.I could understand a speed lube shop thinking an oil like Castrol Syntec would work. After all many VW dealers have.

Audi5000TDI · Feb 15, 2006

Robert51, do you have any fuel samples taken from said vehicle to see what the customer was running for fuel? straight d2 or B100 or blended?

vwrobert51 · Feb 15, 2006

sorry i only got photos, car is in texas, photos came to me from my contact in VOA, just to let you all see end result of wrong oil use, i was told that cam lobes will go first then inj rollers, and if you look at the last photo you can see top of lifter face missing with damage to valve steem .

leicaman · Feb 15, 2006

What makes this really crazy is that the oil the bloke used wasn't even near the PD oil specs. First off its a 5w30 and then it doesn't have the right additive package. I think he would have had a more fighting chance to prevent wear if he used a synthetic oil

I know its a pain to use the right oil, but when you factor in the factory allowance for mileage and so forth, its not that expensive. No it isn't some cheap Penzoil in the yellow bottle for gassers, its a specialty oil designed to protect a particular type of engine.

Just please use the right oil and you'll never see this problem with your TDI.

gck

dieseldorf · Feb 16, 2006

Long_Range said:
Looks like the rocker arm roller in pic #2 may have heated up....

Yeah, that was kinda my impression. It appears that severe, localized heating took place...very hard to tell when pictures were taken with a camera phone

So, the "seize" threat may be more real than people had previously thought.

I used to photoshop to improve contrast and definition. Before I PSed picture #1, it appeared that chunks of the cam were actually missing on that near edge.

I can say that this is not an isolated case and VWoA is reporting PD failures on a more regular basis. I do have some other tidbits...I'll see if I can get permission to share.

Robert, in a case like the one pictured here, what's involved with the repair to get the motorist back on the road. Obviously the cam, what else?

Thanks and thanks again for securing the photos

Bob V · Feb 16, 2006

This is why API and ACEA rated oils are not good enough to meet the VW approval process. VW can control the quality of the oil. Had the customer shown proper service with "approved" oil, I am sure the warranty would not be in question.

vwrobert51 · Feb 16, 2006

BOB V; if the cust had oil changes done with factory spec oil i am sure that they wouldnt be out an engine, and all the hassel,
DIESELDORF;as far as i know the fix is to replace cyl. head with inj rockers,but it also depends how far metal shavings got into lower half of engine, most likley, to be safe is to replace compleat long block with head, (very $$$$$) TO all that have been running non 50501, you may want to have valve cover removed and inspect cam and rollers, as you may find damage starting to happen, but not to failure level yet, if cam shows good replace oil with 50501. if bad you know whats in store for you, SO you would now think maybe the factory was right all along

with all the warning lables on car and in book and tech bulitins on 50501 oil use, OH, and to all dealers that ignored factory spec oil use, be prepared to replace cyl heads on your dime.

dieseldorf · Feb 16, 2006

Let's remember, this all being done in the name of science and experimentation!!

vwrobert51 said:
....but it also depends how far metal shavings got into lower half of engine, most likley, to be safe is to replace compleat long block with head, (very $$$$$)

YIKES, that can't be cheap!!

DRbillZ · Feb 16, 2006

Although I lived thru the times where the 'recommended oil' was a farce(meaning to use only the "Motorcraft brand"), I DO NOT mess with anything other than the right oil for our 2 TDIs(1.9L and 2.0L).
I have always used the correct weight oil as recommended by the manufacturer however.

Drivbiwire · Feb 16, 2006

First off 5w30 conventional! ***!

Juffy lube...again ***!

Owner will get to buy a new cam and four new rockers. That should fix the problem for the long haul.

Everytime I fly a new type of airplane I go through months of training, testing as well as days of simulator evaluation before I ever step foot in the real thing. Maybe it's time owners are mandated to actually read and understand the specifics of the $25,000 vehicle they just purchased...maybe?

DB

dieseldorf · Feb 16, 2006

DRbillZ said:
I have always used the correct weight oil as recommended by the manufacturer however.

Guys, please, let's not get caught up in the xW-30 argument...it's not appropriate as that's semi-meaningless info.

Remember: The new, universal VAG oil (504/507) is 5W-30 only, that's a fact.

This issue is about a failure to follow simple instructions laid out in black in white, as DBW notes - - it's NOT a viscosity issue.

mparker326 · Feb 16, 2006

I'm not a sceptic on the necessity of 505.01 in PD's, but this thread sure has some internet hoax qualities about it as well.

n1das · Feb 16, 2006

dieseldorf said:
We all need to extend a "thanks" to forum brother vwrobert51 for going to the trouble of rounding up these photographs of the bad PD cam situation. Owner has had car serviced by "Jiffy Lube" without any consideration to VAG's highly specific oil requirement.

I hope we can keep the discussion civil and technical. Again, thank Robert for sharing this with us. He is one VW tech that does care.

Customer brought car into shop with following complaint:

"LOSS OF POWER WITH KNOCKING NOISE."

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

I echo DBW's comments: ***!?!?!?!

dieseldorf · Feb 16, 2006

mparker326 said:
....but this thread sure has some internet hoax qualities about it as well.

m, I don't believe it to be the case and I would not have posted the photos if I believed it to be the case.

vwrobert's email (to me) had been forwarded from his contact at VW....it still had all the headers containing the original sender's information.

I am in possession of other details discussing the "widespread" failure of PD and oil-related issues - - this is not an isolated incident. As time passes, I believe we'll have more of these failures fully documented for all to see.

BRUSSELS BELGIAN · Feb 16, 2006

Playing by the rules NOT expensive!

I hate to sound like the vast majority of people are short-sighted, but consider: (1) I get my 505.1 oil from one of our vendors. (2) I take my $25,000 car (B5) to the DEALER with my oil. (3) I pay $48.00 in labor for the oil change and for a VERY GOOD mechanic to look the car over. (4) I have now covered my a$$ if any warranty problems ever occur. SO MY QUESTION IS...IF PEOPLE CANNOT AFFORD $48.00 EVERY 10,000 MILES TO HAVE PEACE OF MIND, THEN WHY THE HELL DID THEY BUY A CAR LIKE THIS IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Sooch · Feb 16, 2006

BRUSSELS BELGIAN said:
(3) I pay $48.00 in labor for the oil change and for a VERY GOOD mechanic to look the car over.

I can't find that very good mechanic at any of the 3 nearby VW dealers. I would pay double if I could get decent, non-destructive service at any of them.

owr084 · Feb 16, 2006

BRUSSELS BELGIAN said:
I hate to sound like the vast majority of people are short-sighted, but consider: (1) I get my 505.1 oil from one of our vendors. (2) I take my $25,000 car (B5) to the DEALER with my oil. (3) I pay $48.00 in labor for the oil change and for a VERY GOOD mechanic to look the car over. (4) I have now covered my a$$ if any warranty problems ever occur. SO MY QUESTION IS...IF PEOPLE CANNOT AFFORD $48.00 EVERY 10,000 MILES TO HAVE PEACE OF MIND, THEN WHY THE HELL DID THEY BUY A CAR LIKE THIS IN THE FIRST PLACE?

That's all fine and dandy if you trust your dealer. The first and only time I took mine in for an oil change, they used the correct oil, but tried to put way too much in. I do it myself now with an oil change kit from worldimpex.com.

As for why the heck did I buy a car like this in the first place - it is beacuase of tdiclub.com I know that if I have a problem, I can come here first to find out if I can fix it myself, find someone to fix it, or as a last resort go to the dealer armed with the info I gleaned from the forums.

pepper10 · Feb 16, 2006

Well wouldn't you know it... 505.01 was not a joke after all

Wasn't there one member who just decided to use Delvac1 (or something like that) instead of 505.01 and calling himself a guinea pig? And people chimed in that CI-4 oils should be sufficient.. Although the oil used here was doubtfully anything more than SJ rated, I'd think twice in not using 505.01 rated oils in a PD...

Here's the thread.. http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=129373

Zero10 · Feb 16, 2006

Yeah, this isn't much of an argument against 505.01, but more of an argument against using completely wrong oils.

03_01_TDI · Feb 16, 2006

Was the oil used even 505.00 rated?

Was the oil used even for a diesel engine-- of any brand?

I think that using from the "dealer using wrong oil thread" some dealerships have been using 505.00 oil for over 2 years now. And non of them has had or that we know of engine problems-- NOT that 505.00 is OK to use. Just a thought that 505.00 oil is much better than gasser oil and should make a TDI last longer than say 80k miles.

IMO I'd never ever buy a used PD-TDI without solid oil change records.

Lube failure/damaged PD cam photos

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Oil Wanker

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Gadget Guy

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Banned

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Old Whig

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Banned