Culprit of intermittent engine shut down on cold starts?

jesus_man

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So his scenario has happened twice while under my ownership. The first time to my wife as she was attempting to take her parents to the airport and second time was yesterday to me.

I had used the car to run the kids to school, get some errands ran, and return home; about a 45 mile adventure. Temps that morning were fairly cold; in the high 20's, but there were no hints of issues.

Early that afternoon I get in the car to go get the kids from school, temps now in the 30's. I started it normally, but it ran rough for a second then died. hmmm. So I turn off the key, and cycle it back on and allow the glow plugs to do their thing for about 5 seconds and I start it again. It takes about 5 seconds of cranking before it fires. Still running rough, I begin to back out of the driveway. As I switch from R to D, the car dies again. I restart again after more than normal cranking; puzzled as to what is going on. There is no CEL or any indication on the dash. I restart again, this time backing into the driveway, popping the hood and not seeing anything that would seem to cause issues. The engine appears to be running normally again on this startup. So I close the hood, say a little prayer and head out. The car ran normally from there on. This morning, temps in the low 20's I feared it may not start but it did normally and ran great.

I'd love any advice. I do have VAG-COM, but am a very novice user. I have owned the car 11 months and I did not get any service history. I am at 112k miles and I know the timing belt R&R is around the corner. I have changed the oil regularly with the right stuff from idparts.com and am making plans to replace the fuel filter.

Thanks!
 

Swinging Steel

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That just happened to me this week. Probably too much water in your lower intercooler pipe...passenger side. Make it a regular maintenance task to drain it and wipe out the sludge. maybe every other oil change. be thankful it didn't hydrolock. I guess it's a common issue...see the first sticky in this forum. Seems like some people get away with drilling a small hole in the bottom of the pipe, but I wonder how that doesn't affect the turbo's performance, because that whole line delivers pressurized air. My first issue didn't occur until 85k....so I just plan on draining it every other fuel filter change. Good luck with the car.
 

piotrsko

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A 3mm 1/16 hole isn't going to leak worse than some of the seals, but it's enough to drain the pipe fairly fast.
 

jesus_man

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It was worth the shot, but there was very little water in there. Some sludge that I cleaned out best I could, but only 2 or 3 drops of water.

Back to the drawing board.
 

INSW20

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I had something like this happen when ambient temps were 30F, but my car was facing bright sunlight (my ambient air temp display on the dash showed 56F). Not sure if the sun heated something to the point there was a mismatch between measured and actual air temp which then caused improper fueling/timing? Just an idea.
 

jesus_man

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I had experienced a small fuel leak from the outlet of the small pump near the coolant overflow tank. I discovered that I did not tighten it well enough before as it was loose again. So I got more serious about tightening it and will check that after a few days to see if it's still holding.

It's plausible that the leak might cause my issue, but it wasn't that much of a leak unless fuel was siphoned out of the injection system??

No problems since that day and the car handled the 5" of snow we received Friday night quite well!
 

jesus_man

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The problem came back this am. Would start very hard and idle rough and die. After 3rd start where the battery barely turned the engine over it stayed running. After a few seconds it ran normally for being cold. Had the charging system checked out and while the battery passed they said the regulator is failing. Failed 4 times in a row.
So would low voltage cause the car to run rough and die? I saw where to test battery for AC to see if the regulator isn't doing its job and I will test that soon.
Any advice? Anyone source and successfully replace just the regulator?
 

Wilkins

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I think it is unlikely you have an electrical problem more serious than perhaps dirty battery terminals. I would look for backup before accepting the statement the regulator is failing. If you get 13.6 V across the battery with the engine running all is good there.

I think your problem is simply water in the intercooler. Before i drilled a hole I occasionally and infrequently had this problem after driving the car gently for longer periods. The simplest fix is to rev the engine briefly in the last few miles before shutdown. eg rev it to 3500 for 15 seconds . The increased airflow will blow any water out of the intercooler. Caveat that if a big slug comes through you do run the risk of serious engine damage from hydrolock. Experience says this would be a rare and unusual but not unheard of event.
 

jesus_man

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When I pulled the intercooler pipe just a few weeks ago, I only got a couple drops of water. Do you think that revving the engine forces the water into that part of the tube? That comes with the risk that if there is indeed substantial water in the intercooler, then the engine can then ingest it?

But why then would the regulator fail the test? I will stop at a different shop tomorrow and have them perform the test again.
 

jesus_man

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What does that involve?
 

jesus_man

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Sounds interesting. But that would hinge on if there is indeed water in the intercooler. I assume they are not real easy to just remove and dump?
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
The flap helps to lessen the moisture buildup so you do not have to mess with taking anything loose.

The "fixed" cars are going to be worse for intercooler condensation, due to even more EGR use (it is the low pressure EGR that causes this).
 

jesus_man

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I am willing to put some money into this once I am convinced this is my issue. It does stand to reason. I also notice that when it is cold, the car chuggs along for 30 seconds or so, likely due to the rough idle. I could see where that could be lack of air getting thru the system.

Awesome news on the fixed cars...:shrug:
 

turbobrick240

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For a few bucks you can get a voltmeter/usb port that plugs into the cigarette lighter. They are great for monitoring voltage. It should read over 14V when running if the battery and alternator are in good shape and all connections are clean and tight.
 

jesus_man

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For a few bucks you can get a voltmeter/usb port that plugs into the cigarette lighter. They are great for monitoring voltage. It should read over 14V when running if the battery and alternator are in good shape and all connections are clean and tight.
Thanks for the reminder. I got one for my wife's car because I burned up her previous one. So I guess I get to borrow it for a time...
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
If there was low voltage, you'd have a half dozen modules in the car reporting DTCs for such, especially the SRS, which seems to be the most sensitive to that sort of thing.

It is normal for the duty cycled alternator output to ramp up after a cold start to lessen the shock of all the consumers on the system, especially a diesel, what with all its afterglowing and auxiliary heating elements, etc.

You can monitor all of this with a scan tool.
 

jesus_man

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That also makes sense. In my last TDI, I had an alternator going bad (stop charging at higher RPM's) and I would get the battery light as soon as it would stop charging. No such thing this time. Although this last iteration, the car was turning over VERY slowly the 2nd and 3rd attempt at starting.

The trouble is, this so intermittent (3 times in the last 4 months), that it is not feasible to monitor with each startup. And of course, when it acts up, we need to be getting on the road. I don't have time to get the VAG-COM hooked up. It's either get it started in the next few minutes or initiate plan B.

If I am only getting drops out of the intercooler piping (and a coating of sludge), is there anywhere else that I can confirm this water issue?
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
If you continue to try and start it, any water/slush will be forced through, and you will not find anything.

You need to take the charge air pipe loose BEFORE trying to start it, when you are pretty confident it could be prone to occur.

And even then, only a little bit is all it takes to cause problems. You do it enough, and you'll bend the rods. Seen it. Fixed it. Not worth the risk.
 

jesus_man

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I am fully aware of the potential issues and I certainly do not want to go there!

But again, the only common theme thus far is days that are around the freezing mark, but not real cold. Twice it's happened after I had already driven the car 40 miles and once on the first start of the day. So knowing when at this point will be a complete shot in the dark. I suppose next time it happens, I need to jump to plan B immediately and park the car until I have have a closer look.
 

TDIJetta99

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03... Faster than yours =]
My wife's old 2011 did this a few times in the garage in really cold weather. Hers did not have any of the emissions fix. it would fire up and immediately die, followed by almost refusing to crank. every time it would do it, I'd pull the glow plugs and crank it and it would shoot an alarming amount of water out of #2 and 3. it was enough to soak the ceiling in front of the car.. It would also always have some water in the lower pipe when it would do it. The local dealership insisted there was no such issue as the intercooler icing even when I brought them the printed TSB. They simply said "that doesn't apply to your VIN". It got "fixed" with the smallest of boost leaks in the lower pipe (1mm drill bit). She ended up selling the car back to VW when the fuel pump started failing and they denied the warranty due to their "red light green light" tester showing red.

Fast forward to this winter and I purchased the identical 2011 in November except for mine has the emissions "fix". I don't park in the garage but mine stumbles from time to time after a near freezing start, and in sub freezing temperatures will stumble and misfire if I let it idle at operating temperature for 10 minutes in the cold.
 

jesus_man

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So tell me if this stands to reason... I have been driving the car around in Sport mode and ironically the fuel mileage appears to have increased. I don't drive it hard, but I have to assume the better MPG's is due to the engine being in it's power curve more and therefore not working as hard to get the car going?

But, back to my point...I have noticed that in the higher rpm range, especially the first time of the day I get the car above the 3k mark, it seems to chug and miss a little not wanting accelerate any more for a few seconds. Could it be that it is ingesting water/sludge at this point and that is causing the miss? It has not had any starting issues since I posted about it earlier...

I would love to just put on the upgraded HPFP, delete and tune it and put all this behind me, but I know I don't have the cash for that.
 

tjg

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So I just had this issue with my 14 wagen... It would start for 1-2 seconds and then die, then not want to crank. I would eventually be able to get it to start after a few tries, then stay running by giving it some throttle.

Dealership checked the ECU and found it to be "bad". The said it failed 6 of the 7 tests they ran on it.
 

jesus_man

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So I just had this issue with my 14 wagen... It would start for 1-2 seconds and then die, then not want to crank. I would eventually be able to get it to start after a few tries, then stay running by giving it some throttle.
Dealership checked the ECU and found it to be "bad". The said it failed 6 of the 7 tests they ran on it.
hmmm. So keep us posted please!
 

tjg

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They replaced the ECU and it's fine now. I think it also solved the occasional "flat spot" in acceleration when I would hit 2nd gear after leaving the driveway from a cold start.

It didn't solve the damn bank1 sensor1 intermittent malfunction CEL I'm occasionally getting... So that must be a wiring issue (dealer replaced 02 sensor twice)
 

jesus_man

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My tdi was down for a week while I replaced my timing belt. (long story, but bought an incomplete kit and had to source all the bolts locally, and crazy schedule).

Anyway, when I was brave enough to fire it up the first time, it ran normally, so I was pleased. I let it come up to operating temp while I watched the coolant levels. Once that stabilized, I shut the car off and it stumbled a little as it died. So I started it again and it stuttered a little like it has before and wanted to die, but straightened itself out and ran again. Since I hadn't put the slid plate back up, I popped off the IC tube and was amazed that I got about a cup or more of water!! I took this tube loose prior to starting the Timing belt procedure and I got just an ounce or so. I drained out what I could, put it back on, started the car and it ran fine. I gave it some revs and everything seemed normal. I pulled the IC hose off again to get a few more ounces of water! I have only ever gotten just a few drops until now.

Perhaps this really is my issue. Is VW doing anything about this? I plan to call my dealer today to discuss this.

Oilhammer - If they don't want to do something, I'd love to discuss the cold weather IC kit you mention in more detail.
 
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