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TDI (Diesel) Emissions This is a discussion about emissions from TDI's. Pro's cons of Diesels (including biodiesel) effects on the environment and how they compare to Gasoline and other fuel sources for Internal combustion engines.

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Old May 21st, 2002, 12:44   #1
Ted_Grozier
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Location: Hanover, New Hampshire USA
Fuel Economy: 48/44/40 mpg
Default NOx emissions and 205 injectors

When Joe Rappa hooked up is portable emissions tester to my stock ECU TDI with 205 injectors, the amazingly low NOx surprised him. It was the lowest he had measured to date.

The reason is that the EGR map uses an injection quantity value that is calculated based on the stock 184 injectors.

Thus when installing 205s with a stock EGR and ECU you decrease available oxygen and reduce NOx below stock levels, with a corresponding increase in HC emissions --> then soot in the oil as some have observed.

Solution: adapt EGR to suit the 205s. How much? I do not know. But would like to run some tests. Ideally we would want to reduce EGR by 15-20% or so.

Amazing, all these years of diesel study going out the window. You get in the mindset that a diesel is always lean-burn, but on the TDI with electronic EGR there really is to some degree a "mixture" and a semi-closed control loop. (No oxygen sensor downstream but lots of feedback on the intake side; also calculated values.)

It's remarkable how all the systems interact.
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Old May 21st, 2002, 14:56   #2
Ted_Grozier
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Default Re: NOx emissions and 205 injectors

As I recall it was 60 mph cruise in top gear.
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Old May 21st, 2002, 23:49   #3
Joe Rappa
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Default Re: NOx emissions and 205 injectors

Hi Ted,
Here is one of those graphs. I can post more of them if you want... I checked quite a few modded cars that day.
Joe



[ May 21, 2002, 22:57: Message edited by: Joe Rappa ]
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Old May 22nd, 2002, 01:57   #4
weedeater
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Default Re: NOx emissions and 205 injectors

At what RPM did he measure NOx?
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Old May 22nd, 2002, 08:32   #5
Ted_Grozier
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Default Re: NOx emissions and 205 injectors

Thanks Joe - are you going to be at the GTG this weekend or at the TDI fest?

Regards,

Ted
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Old May 22nd, 2002, 19:27   #6
weedeater
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Default Re: NOx emissions and 205 injectors

I would expect NOx to drop as RPM and power increase, since EGR drops the same way.
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Old May 22nd, 2002, 20:42   #7
Joe Rappa
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Default Re: NOx emissions and 205 injectors

Hi Ted,
I'm not going to the GTG this weekend, but I will be at TDI Fest, doing the Biodiesel thing. I'm bringing some pretty cool diesel stuff that I've been collecting too. I've got an 1.6L engine cutaway(lets you see everything inside), some pistons that were scuffed by ether starts, and some cylinders that were eroded by poor coolant. Stuff like that.

Here's the NOx/.205 situation as I see it.
The .205s spray a thicker stream into the cylinder. The thicker the stream, the more fuel begins to burn in an oxygen defecit, increasing the soot level. Anything that increases sooting, decreases NOx formation. I don't believe it is connected to EGR myself. I think it is simply a function of the fuel stream difference.
Your NOx level was also quite a bit lower at full throttle, when EGR is not functioning.
(where's TDIMeister when we need him?) [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
Joe Rappa
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Old May 22nd, 2002, 22:16   #8
Ted_Grozier
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Default Re: NOx emissions and 205 injectors

Interesting Joe I had forgotten about the full-load runs. That's great that you're coming to the Fest - its not so far off now. Ted
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Old May 22nd, 2002, 22:18   #9
MeisterJaeger
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Default Re: NOx emissions and 205 injectors

(where's TDIMeister when we need him?) [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

That would still be Malaysia i quess...... [img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img]
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Old May 23rd, 2002, 11:00   #10
GoFaster
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Default Re: NOx emissions and 205 injectors

And VW's excuse for not bringing in the 110hp was ... emissions ? ? ? Go figure!

If your theory is correct, it would be interesting to see what the NOx is like in mine with 0.216 injectors, stock ECU (but with a boost bleed), and EGR present but "reduced".

There is still 2.5 times more oxygen than CO2 according to the display, that's still quite lean operation. Interesting.

Back-of-notepad rough calculations suggest somewhere around 0.2 grams per kilometer of NOx under those operating conditions. What are the EPA exhaust emission limits? What about Euro 4?
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Old May 23rd, 2002, 12:00   #11
weedeater
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Default Re: NOx emissions and 205 injectors

Actually, NOx production in a diesel is greatest just off idle and decreases as power increases. This is the opposite of gas engines. It has to do with mixture, which is leanest (more excess O2) at idle/low power and becomes richer as power increases. Gas engines (as you know) have a fixed mixture across their power range. Their NOx production is more temperature related (higher power, higher temps, more NOx).
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Old May 23rd, 2002, 12:03   #12
Ted_Grozier
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Default Re: NOx emissions and 205 injectors

It's very difficult to compare emissions measurements to each other. I think the EPA test is a cycle, and it's a "bag test" i.e. total emissions during the cycle. Other standards use g/km, etc.

Remember Brian that I was at the time running the standard EGR, not reduced, and that optimization of HC and NOx would have bumped up NOx somewhat.

I think the reason we don't get the 110 is that with very poor fuel it makes a good deal of visible smoke. This of course is not a problem on Premier or B20.

Are you coming to Michigan this weekend?

Ted
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Old May 23rd, 2002, 18:32   #13
GoFaster
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Default Re: NOx emissions and 205 injectors

I know the official test procedure isn't under these particular conditions, but still, it's an interesting order-of-magnitude comparison. Can't make it to any get-togethers this weekend, got too much else going on.
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Old May 23rd, 2002, 18:32   #14
GoFaster
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Default Re: NOx emissions and 205 injectors

I know the official test procedure isn't under these particular conditions, but still, it's an interesting order-of-magnitude comparison. Can't make it to any get-togethers this weekend, got too much else going on.
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