135K Golf engine died at shop

I'm new to this forum and am hoping to get some advice on a bad situation I find myself in.

My 2002 TDI Golf was having a problem with progressively diminishing power/acceleration. My regular local mechanic, who does not have any special knowledge of diesels, thought it might need a new turbo, but suggested I take it to the dealer for diagnosis.

Took it to the dealer. Had them change the oil while it was there. The diagnosis they gave was that the EGR valve and intake manifold were caked with carbon and needed to be replaced.

Took the car back to my local guy, who ordered the EGR valve and said he'd try to clean the manifold, instead of replacing. He called the next day to say: Bad news, your engine blew up. At his point he says he had: Removed and cleaned the EGR valve, removed and cleaned the pre-warm-up heater, removed and cleaned the intake manifold, and put all those things back in the car. He took it out on a short test drive when the engine died. He said there was a loud crack.

Seems like between the dealer and this mechanic, something must have been done wrong, since this engine would not be likely to die of natural causes at 135,000 miles. The car has been towed the home and I'm planning to tow it to Wheaton Service Center in MD (found that shop in the list of recommended mechanics on this site) next week, when they can fit it in. I asked them to first check it out with an eye toward what might have gone wrong, then let me know what we'd be into if we are going to get everything fixed.

Other info that may be pertinent:

Manual transition with original clutch
Timing belt replaced at about 90K
Used Mobile One oil
At around 110K, engine started to use some oil and I'd top it off between changes

Anyone have any advice for me? What would you do in this situation?

Thanks!
Rachel

My guess is a turbo seal failed and they had a runaway condition while on the test drive. Sad really.

my 0.02-
Agree with #2. Meaning, the engine oil that the engine was observed to be "using" wasn't actually being burned or leaked by the engine at all- rather, it was (may have been) leaking out of the turbo oil seal, and causing liquid oil to collect in the intake tract at a slow rate. This accumulates until some point when the oil gets misted and ingested by the engine. Note oil is combustible and the engine can run on that oil mist. This is known as runaway. It's an uncontrolled acceleration. This is often followed by the engine sucking in a substantial quantity of oil in liquid form (it doesn't take much- maybe a tablespoon or two), and the engine attempts to compress the liquid oil but of course that can't happen. This is known as "hydrolock", and results in things inside the engine bending, requiring an engine rebuild. Search runaway and hydrolock and my previous replies on this forum, you'll find threads where more explanation exists (sorry, I tend to be verbose).
=
at any rate, I think you've done the best possible thing you could do at this point- that is, get the car to a trusted mechanic. I don't think I can fault the dealer or the other mechanic for having "caused" a failure, but perhaps because they don't happen to be familiar with the TDI, they didn't know to make a routine inspection or two that may have revealed the presence of large amounts of liquid oil. That's largely speculation- your trusted TDI mech. should be able to give you a clear and accurate picture.

Who replaced the belt at 90k and what parts were replaced?

More likely pieces of carbon from the intake cleaning were ingested by the engine. Pulling the head should tell the story. NEVER take your TDI to someone that isn't a guru. by pre-warm-up heater are you taliking about the intercooler ? If so it probably didn't hydrolock because there was no oil in the intercooler. Its possible that the seal in the turbo quit but you didn't mention it overreving .

Timeshifte said:

More likely pieces of carbon from the intake cleaning were ingested by the engine. Pulling the head should tell the story. NEVER take your TDI to someone that isn't a guru. by pre-warm-up heater are you taliking about the intercooler ? If so it probably didn't hydrolock because there was no oil in the intercooler. Its possible that the seal in the turbo quit but you didn't mention it overreving .

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X2 Chunk fell into the engine. Mechanic is at fault. Pull head and measure piston projection to ensure that the connecting rod isn't bent as well.

Timeshifte said:

More likely pieces of carbon from the intake cleaning were ingested by the engine. Pulling the head should tell the story. NEVER take your TDI to someone that isn't a guru. by pre-warm-up heater are you taliking about the intercooler ? If so it probably didn't hydrolock because there was no oil in the intercooler. Its possible that the seal in the turbo quit but you didn't mention it overreving .

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X2
Chunk fell into the engine. Mechanic is at fault. Pull head and measure piston projection to ensure that the connecting rod isn't bent as well.

if the intake manifold & egr were clogged severely, and there was oil in the intercooler from bad oil seals on the turbo, or even from lack of boost due to reduced airflow into the engine, it is very plausible that on a normal test drive, getting on boost that it could suck up the oil from the intercooler and hydrolock the engine.

first thing needs to be the glow plugs out and engine turned over by hand to see if any oil spits out the glow plug holes. (violently, so cover holes with a towell)

then compression check if they come out clear, since you have the glow plugs out already anyways.

and from there, let us know what is found and we can make other informed suggestions.

of course, if there is a big hole in the block from a rod coming apart, it really doesn't matter what happened... you need a new lower end for sure, and lokely a whole new longblock.

Thanks so much for all the replies. I really value your knowledge.

As for the timing belt, I have to find my records and get the details on exactly what was done. I do recall that they replaced another major part at the time, saying it was easier to do at the same time. Obviously, I'm not super mechanically inclined.

A detail that I don't think I mentioned in the original post is that the mechanic (who may be at fault) says my lower engine block is cracked.

I'm now just waiting until next week, when the good VW shop (Tom at Wheaton Service Center) is going to look everything over. But I'll continue to check here for any more ideas from this community.

Thanks again!

Rachel

Canadian_Grizzly said:

X2 Chunk fell into the engine. Mechanic is at fault. Pull head and measure piston projection to ensure that the connecting rod isn't bent as well.

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Canadian Grizzly:

Thanks for your post. Not sure what you mean by "X2." I assume you mean a carbon chunk went into the engine, is that right?

If the mechanic is at fault, do you (or does anyone) know how to deal with that situation? Small claims court?

Remind the mechanic that you've got a really big mouth and with the help of the biggest VW TDI forum on the planet, you can make or break his business. Then, ask the mechanic to pay for the damages caused by his negligence or buy the car from you for a price you determine.

You can try to go the route of suing him and such, you can also spout off about your big forum mouth... but in the end, it is pretty hard to prove his negligence and get it all paid for. Even if you go the small claims route you are expending a lot if time and effort, and you need to check what your states cap is on small claims.

You can however convince your insurance company that an incompotent mechanic worked on your car and have it fixed by them. I've seen several of those cases the last few years around here with timing belt snafu's.

rach said:

Not sure what you mean by "X2."

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Not referring to his double post

X2 is forum slang for "times two" or basically "I agree with what someone else said."

Good luck!

rach said:

Anyone have any advice for me? What would you do in this situation?l

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I'm sorry your mechanic killed your car. You have only two options.

1. Sell the car as-is in the Classifieds section on this forum and buy a Toyota.

2. Find a guru near you and have your car towed there. Then write a check. I have nothing against Wheaton Service Center but you might want to talk to Oliver Wegener in Baltimore before towing your car to Wheaton.

What's disturbing is that the mechanic who was working on your car when it died apparently did nothing to even try to figure out what happened. Is that right? He chalked it up to coincidence without investigating? If it's true, that's a pretty bad character statement. If you've been a regular customer of this guy, the first thing I'd do is call him and ask him if he tried to figure out what happened. If he says he did, listen to his explanation and then post it here. If he says no, take note of that, politely tell him that you'll be consulting another mechanic to determine if he's at fault, and move on.

Threatening and posturing never does any good, but persistent and well documented work on your part will probably result in you not having to personally pay for something that was his fault, if it in fact was something he did. It's not that hard to prove. Once your new mechanic gets the engine apart and has found something that explains what happened, make sure you take lots of photos.

rach said:

the mechanic (who may be at fault) says my lower engine block is cracked.

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More details would be welcome...

It's just possible that something happened to the block at that particular time, and that it has absolutely no relationship to what the mechanic did.

Even a stuck piece of carbon in one of the valves wouldn't cause the block to break, and the same would most probably apply to a hydro-lock condition - unless the engine ran away during the test drive and one of the rods let go...

I second the recommendation to get in touch with Oliver Wegener in Baltimore, http://forums.tdiclub.com/member.php?u=16069 although you're just about as far from UserID "ninedee_golf_tdi" in Stafford VA... http://forums.tdiclub.com/member.php?u=14402



Good luck,

Yuri

My TDI had a water pump freeze up and take out the timing belt. I'm not saying this is what happened to yours but it is a possibility. The catastrophic engine failure may have been prompted by a mechanic's actions, but it may also have been something conincidental.

I agree with the others (X2 means times two or "me, too") in that if you are going to keep the TDI or get another you must cultivate a relationship with a good TDI mechanic, or become one yourself.

halocline said:

What's disturbing is that the mechanic who was working on your car when it died apparently did nothing to even try to figure out what happened. Is that right? He chalked it up to coincidence without investigating? If it's true, that's a pretty bad character statement. If you've been a regular customer of this guy, the first thing I'd do is call him and ask him if he tried to figure out what happened. If he says he did, listen to his explanation and then post it here. If he says no, take note of that, politely tell him that you'll be consulting another mechanic to determine if he's at fault, and move on.

Threatening and posturing never does any good, but persistent and well documented work on your part will probably result in you not having to personally pay for something that was his fault, if it in fact was something he did. It's not that hard to prove. Once your new mechanic gets the engine apart and has found something that explains what happened, make sure you take lots of photos.

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Yes, I had this same thought. It seemed like as soon as the engine died, he called to say "bad news." He didn't seem interested in looking more deeply into what might have happened. In our next call, which was the next day, he said I'd need to get the car towed away. He had looked into the cost of a used engine - so he was going straight to working on replacing the engine.

We've used this mechanic several times, but don't have a strong relationship with him.

The car is going to Wheaton Service Center on Monday. I'll post here again with news when I have it.

Thanks to everyone for the help!

Rachel

OK, here is an update on this. Tom at Wheaton Service Center (who is such a nice guy!) says that the connecting rods broke at the top. The #2 and #3 cylinders (middle rods) broke just beneath the wrist pin. The cylinder wall are scored and the engine is not re-build-able. (forgive me if I have some wording wrong - I'm not a car techie)

He says there is no way to know what caused this to happen. Based on that, it seems like I will not be going back to the other mechanic to request compensation.

It seems like my options are:

1. Spend $8000 to get a VW re-manufactured engine installed. And then likely have the clutch replaced sometime soon, since this is a city car with 130K and the original clutch. In that case, I'd end up spending 8 or 10K and ending up with a car that should have a lot of life in it. (My car is a 2002 Golf)

2. Buy a used TDI - found a couple of local 2003 Jetta sedans that might work that are in the $9K range. One, for example, has 105K miles and has some nicer features, like leather seats and a sunroof. And I've learned on this forum that 2003 is considered to be a good year.

3. Buy a new TDI sportwagon. This seems intimidating - I've never had a new car. I can technically afford it and become one of the "those" people who make car payments.

4. Buy a non TDI. Like a Fit or Prius - since hey, I'm not interested in getting all that involved in my car's maintenance needs.

If it makes a difference, I have 2 small kids. And getting good fuel economy (and other kinds of economy too) is important to me. Although its a bit inconvenient, getting a new or used TDI would mean going to Wheaton Service Center for maintenance and repairs, since I don't want to mess around with non experts after this fiasco. (I know, "duh!")

Your opinions are welcome! Thanks in advance.

Rachel

Don't forget about running this situation by your insurance co. They may cover it (certainly no fault of yours) and then pursue the mechanic on their own, if they feel that to be worthwhile.

As far as fixing the car, installing a used engine from a wrecked car is probably the best money option. If the car is in good shape, the money will not be wasted. Most will be recovered if you choose to sell the car.

These older tdi's do require quite a bit of mechanic attention to bring them up to good condition. Most of the used ones out there have some level of neglect built up over the years and thats what makes them unreliable. They can be brought up to good shape, but that takes work and money.

Once they are in good shape, they are very reliable machines and only need normal maintenance.

Old cars, even old good cars are hard to recommend to someone that does not wrench, or does not have a good wrench to rely on. Unscheduled repairs and costs can really make it uneconomical.

Sometimes it is simply the best economic decision to buy a modest but new car and keep it for 5-10 years.

If you have some time before you need to get this running (I know... who has time...), you could try to see if you can find a decent used engine... They're available at times for less than $1000 (depending on location...)... add a new clutch (G60/VR-6 setup recommended... see BoraParts IDparts or Dieselgeek) and timing belt kit, and you may be able to get this fixed somewhat affordably...

Good luck,

Yuri


PS: a used TDI would still need a timing belt kit and who knows what else...

PPS:

Ski in NC said:

Old cars, even old good cars are hard to recommend to someone that does not wrench, or does not have a good wrench to rely on. Unscheduled repairs and costs can really make it uneconomical.

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True... I do most of the repairs on our two TDIs, and it's still not "cheap" to keep them up... (we do drive an awful lot, though...)

Ski in NC said:

Sometimes it is simply the best economic decision to buy a modest but new car and keep it for 5-10 years.

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Might be the best option for you, if you can swing the finances... I realize that driving a Hyundai doesn't give you the same experience as a VW, but... with 2 small kids, perhaps a hard-nosed business-like decision may be needed...

I'd replace the motor, you have a decent car to start with, it just needs a transplant. But 8K for an engine replacement seems high. Look for a used engine with lower mileage, the cost is much lower.

Thanks for all your thoughts!

Can anyone advise me on how to find a good used engine? Seems like it would be impossible to know how many miles on it or how it had been treated, once it is out of the original car.

In this equation, I'm not too interested in resale values. Just want to have a reliable and economical car to get around in.

Also, I do have something else to drive while I'm figuring this out, so if it took a month to find the right engine, or whatever, that is ok. Only problem with that is that I can't leave the car at Wheaton Service Center for that time, so I guess would have to tow it away and then back again.

Ski in NC said:

Don't forget about running this situation by your insurance co. They may cover it (certainly no fault of yours) and then pursue the mechanic on their own, if they feel that to be worthwhile.

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Thanks for this idea, but I only have liability insurance for the car. I called USAA to discuss, and all they can do is offer a loan to buy something else.

If it were my car, I would replace the engine and clutch. Then I would have a car I know and can rely on, even it not all new for a lot less than new and maybe even less than used.

I would not be willing to let the dealer off the hook on this, but you aren't going to get anywhere with claims against either shop. There just does not sound like enough certainty that anything they did led to the failure.

After letting a Vancouver, WA dealer work on my car a couple of times I decided you never let anyone except an approved guru work on your TDI's engine. It just isn't safe. Even oil changes, it is either you or a guru.

DonL, would you go with a used engine or a VW re-manufactured one?

Used engines will be much less expensive. Only get one that has a warranty. There is some risk in this, as if the engine has a problem, the seller will honor the warranty, but you or the mechanic will have to eat the labor out and in a second time.

If you let your mechanic handle the entire process (find then install the engine) then he should not bill you for the second out and in.

Ask your mechanic if he will install a used engine. Someone on this site may have a lead on a good one in a wrecked car. Bonus points if it is shown to be running ok with a maintenance history BEFORE it gets sold to you or your mechanic.

Just a tidbit: Most engines were running when the car was wrecked. So as long as engine was not damaged from the impact, it should be ok.

I called and asked Tom to look into used engines. He called around and reported back that the prices are high and that it would only save me about $1000. So, around $8K for the remanufactured vw engine or $7k for a used engine. These are the installed prices, of course.

I suspect I would go new. Based on your research it is highly likely I would go new. I like my car, I don't want to give it up.

Spending 8k on a 6k car seems a bit absurd.

I can't believe he can't find an engine any cheaper than 6k or so.