Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here!

IndigoBlueWagon said:

I wonder if the EGR duty cycles driven by the Jetta/Golf non-urea emissions systems make this more prone to occur. Said another way, I wonder if the urea-treated Passat will have the same problem.

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I thought our alternative to urea was the DPF. Wouldn't urea cars still have an EGR circuit?

Yes, but what I'm told is that the EGR operation is much more aggressive in the new cars that don't use urea. I'm speculating, but if it's true then cars tuned for urea may not generate as much moisture in the IC system.

MostroDiesel said:

I thought our alternative to urea was the DPF. Wouldn't urea cars still have an EGR circuit?

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Urea injection system still has the PDF. The urea system removed the need for a NoX Cat. If the removal of the Nox Cat lowers EGRs duty cycle so this isn't an issue, awesome, but who knows for sure.

With the urea injection, you'll still have a DPF and a NOx catalyst. The DPF catches the particulate matter. The urea solution in injected upstream of the NOx catalyst an reacts in the catalyst. It is effective enough that if an EGR is still needed, it will be used very little. To me it would be a tradeoff. You would have a less complex EGR circuit, but you'd also have the added plumbing associated with a urea injection.

just an update here folks, I pulled the lower intercooler pipe today, and got one teaspoon, perhaps a tablespoon, of liquid oily water or some such.

BUMP due to the cold snap here in the New England states region.

Cars still running going on 3 days now.
VW customer service called today to let me know that they have no fix ( already knew that ), and will not have this winter. Fix should be available this summer at which point a recall will be issued. Then told me that he hopes the car makes it through the rest of the winter. And to top it off wanted to know how I liked the car other than this problem???

This will with out a doubt be the last VW I ever own.

kenford said:

Cars still running going on 3 days now.
VW customer service called today to let me know that they have no fix ( already knew that ), and will not have this winter. Fix should be available this summer at which point a recall will be issued. Then told me that he hopes the car makes it through the rest of the winter. And to top it off wanted to know how I liked the car other than this problem???
This will with out a doubt be the last VW I ever own.

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I'll believe it when I see it, in writing, on VWoA letterhead. Until then, it's just dealership gum flapping.

Well my car sat today while I was at work and had trouble idling once it started. I can only assume that I will be having another freezing issue shortly. When I drove to work this morning it was 15F it supposedly got down to 5F last night. When I started the car it was 28F.

I can only imagine how icy mine's getting.

I was thinking, under normal cold conditions, if you're IC was getting icey, wouldn't the turbo (boost) be trying to force more air into the IC to compensate the build up to keep normal conditions?

This boost would also create more heat, so under certain temps you get into an equalibrium point where it won't clog and kill itself, where other temps it'd kill itself.

Biggest way to find out is under normal conditions, flat ground, no wind, not the boost at certain speeds, with and without sub zero temps.

Just to add some data points, with my '10 JSW 6MT I had the "perfect storm" of circumstances conducive to icing the past few days: wild swings of temp (5F to 40F to 14F to 30F), along with large changes in humidity and some rain (big puddles), snow and ice thrown in to keep the pot boiling.

Two days ago I took a short trip -- mostly suburban side roads, then about 10 minutes highway, but was only up to operating temp for about the last third of the run. Parked it and didn't drive until this morning, other than to start the car yesterday and put it near the end of the driveway to minimize shoveling (10" of snow predicted). Today, at about 33F, I went to move it back to its usual spot after the "blizzard" fizzled and it ran very rough after starting. I immediately switched off, ran the glow plug cycle again (leftover habit from my '77 Rabbit Diesel), and it restarted fine and ran OK.

Tomorrow I need to do a 3-hour round trip to Providence, so we'll see how that goes. The car lives outside and I do not have a garage, so no exploratory pan or hose removal for now.

If the RI trip offers any insights I'll report back. The car, which now has about 15k miles on it, did fine last winter (purchased in December of 2009) and has started in temps ranging from 3F to 95F with no issues or hiccups.

-dan

Not much to report. Woke up and it was 12F and 85% (!) humidity. Car started and ran fine, got 43.6 mpg on the Providence round trip.

-dan

My car sat for two weeks while I was traveling, was covered with 2 storms (about 12" total) worth of snow with ice crust between, and survived -27 degrees F. At 11 degrees F, I cranked it as soon as glow plug light went out and it started like a warm summer day.

While in Brazil I saw many cool VW's including VW heavy trucks, new Amarok pickup, Saviero pickups are common, as are Fox, CrossFox, Space Fox and older Combis, Beetles, Scirocco, Quantum, Etc. It was cool to be a car junky and see makes and models we don't get, and to see how predominant VW's are there as compared to here in the states.

I have read all this thread (25 pages) since the get go yesterday and joined the club. I hope to be an asset to it and not a hindrance.
2009 Jetta Wagen TDi
December 2009 - Had my one and only rough start. It sounded just like my late 98 Camry when I discovered no top end oil pressure on start (oil galleries were blocked because of oil sludge). The sound was the valve train with no oil pressure and it sounded like a bucket of bolts clattering around under the hood - very loudly.

Hydraulic locking - or whatever you choose to call fluid in the combustion chamber i.e. hydolocking. My thoughts on this

ice in the inlet, ice stopping the valve closing, valve hitting the piston crown = lots of noise. Not sure this happened to me but my fuel consumption is 43mpg avg. (divide by 1.2 for USA) = lousy. I drive at the posted speed limits (too many of those paper things that cost you points and a lot of cash). So the fuel consumption is low since 2009 December. This I will post since I have every fill up recorded and all the assorted mileage info and dates. Later for that.

2. Sludge in the intercooler, moisture etc. The dealership told me I had that. In December 2009 my dealership removed the pipe (which the photographs are all about in this section) and the problem did not re-occur that winter.

By the way, I live in Nova Scotia: winters are cold and weather is humid. Winter avg is 85 to 100% humidity at OATs varying between -14DegC and plus 6 (add 40 multiply by 9 divide by 5 and subtract 40 for the Fahrenheit scale).

That first winter I was pressure washing the vehicle a lot. The intake for the cooler is right hand side just under the hood at the front (some people might call it a bonnet).

Winter 2010 I have not had a problem - although there may be a lot of green goop in the hose. It was put back on by the dealer in September after I realised having it off the car in the summer was costing me fuel mileage.

So Far no problems with ice although I have had one stumbling start with and engine stall in the pm when leaving from work (car parked outside all day and also sits outside all night).
Now THIS WINTER I have a "slow to warm up” issue which was not present the first winter. The engine has over 34,000 km on it (divide by 1.602 for miles). The first winter it was probably still tight. I Had about 18,000 km on it. So it may have not been fully broken in and had excess heat from friction.

I have seen posts on this site that say when the idiot gauge (gage in the USA) needle reaches 90DegC (194F) that it is actually about 165F (74DegC). This is important for what come next. If when the gage finally reaches (90 i.e. point straight up/mid point/194F) - if I turn the cockpit heat up to max setting and the fan to max. – The gage drops slowly but surely in the space of one minute to 70DegC (160F 158F for the more precision minded). This happens if the rpm is around 14 to 1600 in cruise. If I do the same thing but wait 30 minutes instead of about 9 minutes this does not normally happen. VW will say this is normal. However, overcooled engines do accumulate condensation. Frankly, the intercooler icing issue is partially related to this slow to warm up and even never reaching working temperature on short trips possibility – I emphasise possibility.

I think the thermostat is working BUT not fully closing. Someone wrote that the gage is designed to fail open but over the past 50 plus years under and inside the engines and compartments of cars and trucks – I have seen all kinds of failures.

I am beginning to think after reading the 25 pages on the website about the intercooler icing issue that I have some engine damage which has resulted in poor fuel consumption 43 Mpg (I am old so I am not metric on fuel consumption)
Any thoughts on this treatise from the mechanics on this site?

..."gauge" in the USA too, actually.

Interesting and helpful post!

3rdVWTD(i)iSince92 said:

Winter 2010 I have not had a problem - although there may be a lot of green goop in the hose. It was put back on by the dealer in September after I realised having it off the car in the summer was costing me fuel mileage.

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What do you mean 'it' was put back on? Did the dealer bypass the intercooler?

Pulled the intercooler hose off yesterday and found black oily residue. About 4100 miles currently. No sign of the brown oily goop.

Jackiechan005 said:

Pulled the intercooler hose off yesterday and found black oily residue. About 4100 miles currently. No sign of the brown oily goop.

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Check both hoses around 10,000mi.

Originally Posted by 3rdVWTD(i)iSince92
Winter 2010 I have not had a problem - although there may be a lot of green goop in the hose. It was put back on by the dealer in September after I realised having it off the car in the summer was costing me fuel mileage.

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Conan said:

What do you mean 'it' was put back on? Did the dealer bypass the intercooler?

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I am wondering the same thing.

The dealer took off the short hose in december 2009
It remained off until september 2010
when i asked the dealer to put the short hose backon

this is the hose the enters the box at the intercooler air intake viewed right hand side from the top of the engine compartment
shaped like a C

I find this tool handy when needing to do conversions: http://www.tdiclub.com/misc/conversions.html

3rdVWTD(i)iSince92 said:

The dealer took off the short hose in december 2009
It remained off until september 2010
when i asked the dealer to put the short hose backon

this is the hose the enters the box at the intercooler air intake viewed right hand side from the top of the engine compartment
shaped like a C

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That is NOT the intercooler intake. While air eventually makes it from their into the intercooler, rhat is actually the intake for the air filter box and it is NOT where the green goop accumulates.

The pipe where gunk is accumulating in underneath the car on the passanger side of the engine compartment. The skid pan must be removed to access it. Your engine would run very poorly if it were removed and left off.

3rdVWTD(i)iSince92 said:

So Far no problems with ice although I have had one stumbling start with and engine stall in the pm when leaving from work (car parked outside all day and also sits outside all night). Now THIS WINTER I have a "slow to warm up” issue which was not present the first winter. The engine has over 34,000 km on it (divide by 1.602 for miles). The first winter it was probably still tight. I Had about 18,000 km on it. So it may have not been fully broken in and had excess heat from friction.

I have seen posts on this site that say when the idiot gauge (gage in the USA) needle reaches 90DegC (194F) that it is actually about 165F (74DegC). This is important for what come next. If when the gage finally reaches (90 i.e. point straight up/mid point/194F) - if I turn the cockpit heat up to max setting and the fan to max. – The gage drops slowly but surely in the space of one minute to 70DegC (160F 158F for the more precision minded). This happens if the rpm is around 14 to 1600 in cruise. If I do the same thing but wait 30 minutes instead of about 9 minutes this does not normally happen. VW will say this is normal. However, overcooled engines do accumulate condensation. Frankly, the intercooler icing issue is partially related to this slow to warm up and even never reaching working temperature on short trips possibility – I emphasise possibility.

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While it's remotely possible that your thermostat is failing, cruising at 1800-2000RPM rather than lugging the engine may help keep the engine coolant tempuratures higher. At 1400-1600 hardly any fuel is being injected, so there's very little excess heat is generated. Also, don't turn the fan to max, set it to 2 or 3.

MayorDJQ
It would seem that driving is 'S' setting for the first 10 minutes is best for quick warm up. There is supposed to be an eelctric heater in the heating system for the cabin heat. I am not sure if I have that but i seem to get heat this evening before the temp gage left the stop after 2 minutes of running in a city traffic jam.

You are right about the hose. I mixed up hose purpose and location.
The dealer took off the top hose for the air filter box and told me that would fix the icing problem

Now I have to look for goop Under the car.

Thank you for resolving my confusion

3rdVWTD(i)iSince92 said:

MayorDJQ
It would seem that driving is 'S' setting for the first 10 minutes is best for quick warm up. There is supposed to be an eelctric heater in the heating system for the cabin heat. I am not sure if I have that but i seem to get heat this evening before the temp gage left the stop after 2 minutes of running in a city traffic jam.

You are right about the hose. I mixed up hose purpose and location.
The dealer took off the top hose for the air filter box and told me that would fix the icing problem

Now I have to look for goop Under the car.

Thank you for resolving my confusion

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You have the aux heater. If you turn off the radio, set the fan to 1 or 2, and turn the heat selector anywhere above the coldest setting, you'll hear the relay for the heater cycling. Once you're satisfied it's there, crank the temp dial all the way up and keep the fan on 2/3. It doesn't put out enough heat to make the car hot, but it's enough to keep the fog off the glass and take the edge off a little. The aux heater will continue to work until the gauge gets up to 190F/90C.

I bought my first diesel (other than my 4210 John Deere tractor) in September. Have absolutely loved the car and have 9400 miles on it. Living in NH lately and commuting 36 miles each way has put the car through many temperature extremes since I bought the car. I noticed on occasion over the past few months that it ran rough after starting like a cylinder wasnt firing when it sat all day for 11 hours at work but withing a few minutes ran normally. That is until Thursday night on the way to our camp in northern Maine. Everything seemed normal until starting the climb up Pinkham Notch in Jackson at 11PM. When I went to accelerate I felt a brief hesitation and the squiggly line that I see (possibly glow plug etc) go out before I start the car normally came on and flashed. I also lost power but limped up the incline and made it to the AMC club driveway. Engine running smoothly but without the usual pep. Turned the car off...waited a minute and restarted with no lights. Temperature below 10 degrees outside. Decided no big issue so went on. About 45 minutes further north of Berlin I went to accelerate in the 55 MPH zone to get up to speed and the glow plug light? came on flashing along with a solid engine light and a get service now warning. Turned around and babied car 2 hours home and had it towed to the dealer next AM. Both lights still on next AM after sitting in 28 degree garage overnight. VW dealer said water and ice in intercooler. They said VW knows it is a problem and working on new intercooler and bring back in if further problems. My daughter has the same exact car bought two weeks before mine with 10500 miles and no issues...just in for 10000 mile oil change. Her's sits outside in our yard and mine sits in a very humid garage with melting water on the floor etc. Though I shouldnt have to worry about this stuff happening no matter where I park it does anyone here think it would be worse to park it inside. I figured it is easier on the cars vs 0-10 outside like we have had. Without having to read every post it seems a lot of us NH folks have been having this issue (tow guy says he has been busy towing the TDIs and Audi diesels) Thought I would share and appreciate any insights.

billb603 said:

Though I shouldnt have to worry about this stuff happening no matter where I park it does anyone here think it would be worse to park it inside. I figured it is easier on the cars vs 0-10 outside like we have had.

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As far as intercooler is concerned, where you park you car shouldn't make a difference to the liklehood of the icing occuring. In order for your IC to ice, your engine has to be drawing a lot of air and using the turbocharger. Not likely in a garage.

Where parking in a garage might make a difference is when the symptoms occur. For instance, if your IC has iced and then you park it in a warm garage, the ice will melt and turn into water. If it is still warm the next time you start the car, the engine might swallow the water. However, if that doesn't happen in a garage during startup, then it would well happen later on. Water and ice do not go anywhere fast.

My opinion is that IC icing is affected by driving style aggravated by sustained periods of high humidity at temperatures that are sub-freezing but not bitterly cold.

Its been ~20 degrees F here in Austin, TX for the last couple days.
When I went to start my car (inside garage ~34 F) the car cranked fine, but died immediately.
This is the first time my car didn't fire right up. With the weather being cold here lately. (side note: since car was purchased new, This is the first time the weather has been below freezing). My car has ~26,500 miles on it.)

Anyway, with the car not starting on the first try this morning, I immediately thought of this issue people have been having.

So, I decided to take the time to open up the intercooler hoses to see if I had water in the intercooler hoses?

Holy Cow, Yes I did!!!

Here is the amount I got out of the INTERCOOLER OUTLET HOSE:




I then opened up the Intercooler INLET side and collected even MORE water!
Here is the total amount I got of both the intercooler inlet and outlet side hoses!




Here is the total amount of water transfered to a water bottle. Its going to my local VW dealer to see what they say about this?



The outlet hose was pretty dirty with the slimy gunk others have found. The inlet (was actually pretty clean).





Since the freezing weather (NOT common in Austin) the last couple days, I've been commuting back and forth to work. About a 23mile commute with most of that being on the highway ~70mph.
The temperature the last couple days has been ~20 F. The relative humity has been between 35%-45% so not too bad for around here.

I'm not afraid to drive this car. It is NOT babied all the time. I try not to beat on it too much, but I do get the rpms up +3500rpm routinely.

I don't think I got the rpms over 3500rpm on the way home last night. So, that probably didn't help things.

After removing the water, I tried to restart the car and it fired right up normally, no rough idle, nothing abnormal at all. That amount of water is scary. It could easily hydro-lock and break something. This is NOT good!

I'm going to the VW dealer in town here and see what they tell me. Will keep you guys informed on what they say...

Dpthomas said:

Which transmission - 6M or DSG?

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6m

TDI Koche said:

My car was hard starting again this morning and ran terrible fo r about 5 miles then cleared up........ But now my wife just called and is stranded at work. Won't start again! I just got the car back last week. I'm going to pull the inter-cooler line myself and see what happens. I'll let you all know.

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Sorry this update took so long..

I drove down to my wife's work but I didn't take the IC line off because there was a half foot of fresh snow on the ground. Called for a tow and went home. Dealer called the next day and said car started right up but they would look into the problem a bit more. Dealer called again and said I had water in my fuel and they drained my tank(was about 1/4) and put new fuel in it and it's running fine.

On the plus side there was no charge for what they did. I don't know if it's because I told them I refused to pay for this issue to be looked at again or that I called VWOA and told them how if this doesn't get resolved I will buy a Honda next time. I have owned mostly all VW's for as long as I've been driving and I let them know that and that I am extremely disappointed right now. They said they would contact the dealer to work it out. Either way, no charge.

Car had been running great for two weeks, until Monday night. I had the day off with the kiddies, but the wife had work. She went to work in the morning and came home with no issues. About an hour after she got home I was asked to run to the grocery store. Car started up fine but went I hit the throttle to accelerate out of my driveway the engine sounded like I had just turned an exhaust brake on. It was scary. I let off the gas and it went away. I come to find out that it would only happen under medium to heavy acceleration. When I got back, I asked my wife if she had any problems or heard any noises, but she said no. We had about three inches of snow that night and my wife had the next day off because of the coming Blizzard(We live in a rural community 50 miles west of Chicago so by now you probably know we got hit hard). I had to go to work and now also bring the car in. Car started great in the morning but still no acceleration. On my way to work it continually got worse to the point I could not drive highway speeds anymore. I did 40 mph for the last 5 highway miles to work. Called the dealer and told them I would be bringing the car in at noon, same problem again, and that I was going to wait for it. When I got there, they pulled it in right away. After about 3 hours I went to see how things were progressing and the tech was actually there to talk to directly. He told me that they pulled over a full cup of water from the IC again and also showed me one of my glow plugs that seemed to have been damaged from water entering the engine. They set me up with a free vehicle and said they are awaiting a VW rep to come out and they want to make sure it's fixed for good before I get it back again. All of the Chicago area was closed yesterday so I'll give them some time before I call.

Ill update when I know.

UberVW_TDI said:

Its been ~20 degrees F here in Austin, TX for the last couple days.
When I went to start my car (inside garage ~34 F) the car cranked fine, but died immediately.
This is the first time my car didn't fire right up. With the weather being cold here lately. (side note: since car was purchased new, This is the first time the weather has been below freezing). My car has ~26,500 miles on it.)

Anyway, with the car not starting on the first try this morning, I immediately thought of this issue people have been having.

So, I decided to take the time to open up the intercooler hoses to see if I had water in the intercooler hoses?

Holy Cow, Yes I did!!!

Here is the amount I got out of the INTERCOOLER OUTLET HOSE:

I then opened up the Intercooler INLET side and collected even MORE water!
Here is the total amount I got of both the intercooler inlet and outlet side hoses!

Here is the total amount of water transfered to a water bottle. Its going to my local VW dealer to see what they say about this?

The outlet hose was pretty dirty with the slimy gunk others have found. The inlet (was actually pretty clean).

Since the freezing weather (NOT common in Austin) the last couple days, I've been commuting back and forth to work. About a 23mile commute with most of that being on the highway ~70mph.
The temperature the last couple days has been ~20 F. The relative humity has been between 35%-45% so not too bad for around here.

I'm not afraid to drive this car. It is NOT babied all the time. I try not to beat on it too much, but I do get the rpms up +3500rpm routinely.

I don't think I got the rpms over 3500rpm on the way home last night. So, that probably didn't help things.

After removing the water, I tried to restart the car and it fired right up normally, no rough idle, nothing abnormal at all. That amount of water is scary. It could easily hydro-lock and break something. This is NOT good!

I'm going to the VW dealer in town here and see what they tell me. Will keep you guys informed on what they say...

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Great pictures. I'm surprised that you got two cups of condensation out of it.

@UberVW, nice documentation! Be very interested to see what VW say about that.

That's a BUNCH of water!!