NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

Yep, just heard the (fairly lengthy) report on NPR. If they are going with it, it'll be all over the major news outlets. VW has made its bed, and will now have to lay in it. They've known something was amiss but never fess'd up (until now.)

As an owner of the '09, with 1 in 200 failures (that IS a lot) I'll be looking forward to either a total recall or a virtually unrestricted warranty. In the mean time, I continue with 2% bio at every fill.

I continue to see metal specks at every ff change (I'm doing 10k intervals) so that metal is coming from somewhere in the engine, and will fail soon enough. The dealer, of course, has refused to even look for metal specs, and the one time I relied on them to change the ff (at the 20k mark) they FORGOT. I pointed out at 30k there was no ff on my 20k paperwork, and they admitted that they 'forgot'.

MPBsr said:

I always confirm which handle the gas jockey grabs before pumping, but even if I didn't, shouldn't pay to pay $10,000 because he made a mistake by pumping in gas.

This is def a design flaw by VW.

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If I was you I would get out of my car and watch them fill it up.Another is to find a station with separate D2 pump that way there no mistake.

barshnik said:

The dealer, of course, has refused to even look for metal specs, and the one time I relied on them to change the ff (at the 20k mark) they FORGOT. I pointed out at 30k there was no ff on my 20k paperwork, and they admitted that they 'forgot'.

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Which dealer did you use? I have had no issues with Findlay VW (but they are a long way away from your house). Of course, I always give them written instructions. For my 20k service it included the line: "After replacing the fuel filter. be sure to use scan tool to fill (prime) the fuel system BEFORE starting the engine". I guess this makes if hard for them to say that they forgot to change it. I also tell them to torque the nuts on my DG skidplate to 50 ft-lbs. They even use the torque wrench when replacing the oil drain plug.

Have Fun!

Don

barshnik said:

Yep, just heard the (fairly lengthy) report on NPR. If they are going with it, it'll be all over the major news outlets. VW has made its bed, and will now have to lay in it. They've known something was amiss but never fess'd up (until now.)

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And I hope that bed is loaded with bedbugs.

naturist said:

Regarding the "three redesigns" part of the issue, I'd like to suggest that it is likely VW follows standard corporate engineering practice: (1) some engineer designs a thing, using of course the best materials and procedures that occur to him to use; (2) adjustments are made as necessary due to testing evidence/failures and the thing is put into production; (3) after they've made a few (thousand? million?) somebody who may or may not be an engineer suggests cost savings that could be realized if the thing was just made a bit differently or with somewhat different materials -- usually this is either somebody in Purchasing who can get a deal or somebody in Accounting who sees that "we're not making enough profit;" (4) this causes a "small" redesign to save money/increase profit; (5) the thing is assigned to still another engineer with instructions to find a way to make it even cheaper; (6) repeat #3-#5 as often as possible.

So I'm not surprised that the HPFP would have been redesigned three times, I'm only surprised that this would have been done "to improve reliability." Oh, wait, "improve reliability" is another code phrase for "make it cheaper to produce."

Scepticism aside, they may well have had to redesign it three times to improve reliability. Experience in the field sometimes reveals weaknesses not expected in the design stage.

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I agree whith you last statement.They didn't have a lot time for testing with the CR now it is show up with this and water in the I/C freezing up.

Interesting.. sounds like the pumps are simply intolerant of suspect fuel. one bad fill up likely sends your pump right down the road to failure. it does sound like bosch is making an effort to make the pumps more robust, guess we will have to see..

Does Bosch also make the HPFP for the CR M-B and BMW?

Bosch makes the CR pumps for Duramax and Cummins engines, I haven't replaced one yet. Makes you wonder what the differences are, as the Duramax came out for 2001 MY, and 2003 MY in the Cummins (Dodge).

DSLFAN: Have you replaced a pump on a 2011 Duramax or a 2011 PowerStroke?

They use the CP4.2 - the same pump as found on a V6 TDI, a 2-piston version of the CP4.1 used on the 4-cylinder TDIs.

BMW, Mercedes, and Cummins are using the older, well-proven Bosch CP3.3. (2010 and older Duramaxes also use that pump.)

JSWTDI09 said:

Which dealer did you use? I have had no issues with Findlay VW (but they are a long way away from your house). Of course, I always give them written instructions. For my 20k service it included the line: "After replacing the fuel filter. be sure to use scan tool to fill (prime) the fuel system BEFORE starting the engine". I guess this makes if hard for them to say that they forgot to change it. I also tell them to torque the nuts on my DG skidplate to 50 ft-lbs. They even use the torque wrench when replacing the oil drain plug.

Have Fun!

Don

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I only use Findlay. They try anyway, but are still dealers out to make money and still don't know their way around the CR all that well. Overfilled oil twice even with written instructions. Oh well,

dzcad90 said:

I would wager that the latest improved design doesn't make it's way into production vehicles until sometime aroud now.

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According to my data, pump lead time is 42-71 days. So it would require a car be manufactured in at least 12/10, probably 01/11.

dzcad90 said:

There was a thread floating around a while back where people were posting the content of the white sticker on the HPFP. Now that design changes have been confirmed and we have an approximate date range to work with we might be able to make SOME kind of conclusion as to what this data means.

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If you post your data in this thread, I've been updating it in this spreadsheet. Some of the parts of the label are unknown at this point, so please be sure to provide every part of the label (including the nonpresence of the number under BPT or the 011 in the corner). It also helps to know what vehicle the pump is in, and if you custom-ordered yours.

I'm subbing this thread.

Something that is interesting to note. The US and non-US pumps have a different VW part number. The US pumps are 03L 130 755 A and the non-US pumps are 03L 130 755. However, they are the same BOSCH model number: CR/CP4S1/R35/20. (They also have separate BOSCH part numbers).

It makes you wonder what the difference between the two are. Also, if someone has access to BOSCH HPFPs in other vehicles (V6 TDI, trucks, etc.), I would appreciate if you gave me the info from the label so I can compare it to the pumps installed in our vehicles.

Oh, and to add to my above posts - please provide your vehicle build date if you provide me with your label info.

mysql said:

For what it's worth, there's no bio locally available to me either, so I buy it online.

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Do you have a link per chance

Typical VW denial!
I have a 06 Jeep Liberty CRD and the inside of the BOSCH CP3 pump has a coating just for that reason. There were only 14,000 2005-2006 Liberty CRD's produced for the US and Canada but on the most active CRD forum there has been almost no CP3 failures and no metal flakes. There has been one or two that had a replacable part on them fail though. But failing VNT's are are another matter and they are starving the oil to the engine when they go so it's a BIG repair.
The way diesel is distributed in the US the driver delivering the fuel is responsible for adding the lubricity. Is that passing the buck?

and the resale value of the new TDI plummets.... now.

naturist said:

Regarding the "three redesigns" part of the issue, I'd like to suggest that it is likely VW follows standard corporate engineering practice: (1) some engineer designs a thing, using of course the best materials and procedures that occur to him to use; (2) adjustments are made as necessary due to testing evidence/failures and the thing is put into production; (3) after they've made a few (thousand? million?) somebody who may or may not be an engineer suggests cost savings that could be realized if the thing was just made a bit differently or with somewhat different materials -- usually this is either somebody in Purchasing who can get a deal or somebody in Accounting who sees that "we're not making enough profit;" (4) this causes a "small" redesign to save money/increase profit; (5) the thing is assigned to still another engineer with instructions to find a way to make it even cheaper; (6) repeat #3-#5 as often as possible.

So I'm not surprised that the HPFP would have been redesigned three times, I'm only surprised that this would have been done "to improve reliability." Oh, wait, "improve reliability" is another code phrase for "make it cheaper to produce."

Scepticism aside, they may well have had to redesign it three times to improve reliability. Experience in the field sometimes reveals weaknesses not expected in the design stage.

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You missed one possible redesign point. The assembly worker who points out that they could save x minutes per unit by replacing or altering part y. Back in the 80's a lot of companies were rewarding employees for making such recommendations, especially those based on improved ergomonics.

Sella Turcica said:

and the resale value of the new TDI plummets.... now.

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I think most people who buy TDI's are usually in it for the long term. I just bought mine knowing about the possibility of the HPFP issue and strongly suspecting exhaust issues with the DPF and NOX converter somewhere down the line. I drove it out of the dealership knowing I had just lost thousands of dollars but it was worth it to get my hands on a vehicle that no one has neglected. As far as I am concerned it was a small price to pay for the peace of mind that I will be the only one who has ever been responsible for its maintenance. My only concern is the competence of the dealerships service dept for the next 3 years. At least I can check it after I get it back to make sure everything has been torqued back to spec as it should be.

I may even consider buying the correct oil and giving it to them to pour in just so I know they wont just throw anything in there lol

I am confident that these issues,if not addressed by manufacturer recalls will certainly be addressed by enthusiasts who drive the aftermarket economy.
My 28 year old 6.9 IDI is testimony to this with updated injection pumps, injectors, glow plug mods and many other improvements too numerous to mention.

Wow

This forum has been debating the issues surrounding this issue, and watching a few victims post horror stories, along with some cases where VW stood behind the failures, and now that the reality has reached media outside of this forum. EXPLOSION of posts.

Post and post, but relax now... You WILL be covered (possibly not if you put gasoline in your tank).

So, the questions at this point are

1. Why the heck VW did not make sure that they supply a robust fuel pump (we have the technology?)

2. What about the plan to dominate NA car sales in "X" years? It would seem that Toyota's LOUD experiences in throttle sticking SHOULD have resonated.

I am not worried at all. But gee.

Joe Romas said:

The way diesel is distributed in the US the driver delivering the fuel is responsible for adding the lubricity. Is that passing the buck?

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My buddy drives fuel trucks for a living and he's never heard of this. He goes to the fuel termial at the port, gets fuel and delivers it to the station. He adds nothing to the fuel.

I can see where maybe each fuel terminal would maybe get raw D2 for some of the "house brands" (i.e. your lesser name fuel retailers) and adds a generic additive package, but for brands like Shell and BP, I would like to think that the fuel either arrives at the terminal ready for delivery to the customer, or has a specific additive package that is to be added to the base fuels that are sold to the the independent stations.

nj1266 said:

Do you have a link per chance

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www.hyperfuels.com 5Gal BioCube (Canola or Soy)

dubStrom said:

So, the questions at this point are

1. Why the heck VW did not make sure that they supply a robust fuel pump (we have the technology?)

2. What about the plan to dominate NA car sales in "X" years? It would seem that Toyota's LOUD experiences in throttle sticking SHOULD have resonated.

I am not worried at all. But gee.

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Part of the answer is that the Toyota thing came up after VW had committed the engine to the US market. Another part of the answer is German arrogance. They feel if it was designed correctly by them, then it will not fail. Any failures must be because of the ignorant people who drive the vehicles.

dzcad90 said:

My buddy drives fuel trucks for a living and he's never heard of this. He goes to the fuel termial at the port, gets fuel and delivers it to the station. He adds nothing to the fuel.

I can see where maybe each fuel terminal would maybe get raw D2 for some of the "house brands" (i.e. your lesser name fuel retailers) and adds a generic additive package, but for brands like Shell and BP, I would like to think that the fuel either arrives at the terminal ready for delivery to the customer, or has a specific additive package that is to be added to the base fuels that are sold to the the independent stations.

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30 years in the petroleum industry here.....D2 is pipelined into the distribution terminals (branded and non-branded) from the refineries. Automated lubricity additive systems at the terminal add the required amount to meet spec upon programmed card request of the truck driver for the load. I have posted actual lubricity additive MSDS sheets on this site in other threads. Chevron uses a product made by Lubrizol in all its terminals. I don't know of any U.S. or Canadian refiner that adds lubricity additive before pipelining D2 for distribution. All other additives (for gasoline) are added at the terminal in the same fashion.

The distribution terminal is the key to blending to meet spec. If a Holley Energy terminal in say, El Paso, sells RUG to Shell, Exxon, Chevron, Etc., it will have additive tanks at that terminal to do the blending for them. The same goes with ethanol. In the last few years, some terminals have installed ethanol storage tanks and blend for sale. Ethanol is only received by rail car or tank truck due to its corrosive properties. No one wants to pipeline it (and don't).

The truck driver is responsible for pick up and delivery to the stations. He has absolutely no input into fuel management of formulation at the terminal. Many truck drivers are independents. Now, if he screws up and doesn't clean out tank truck compartments properly prior to coming to the terminal, or allows for cross-contamination of D2 and RUG, well, he is a bad, bad boy.

I have worked (project related) at at least 50 distribution terminals in the U.S. in the last 10 years for at least 10 different suppliers (majors and independent refiners). I have seen the advent of USLD and lubricity additives at terminals as the laws required sulfur removal. My advice, buy your fuel at major suppliers (Chevron, Exxon, Valero, etc) and add a lubricity additive. Case closed. PM me with questions...

I'm driving my 2010 JSW on the interstate, 80 miles or so into a 450 mile trip running close to 80mph. I felt a slight buck and the tach and speedo bounced like crazy a few times with the idiot lights flashing. It was just a momentary thing. The trip computer reset it's self, both trip 1 and trip 2 data. Funny the cruise control did not reset. That was the only issue in 25K miles and have put on another 1K since. If this is related to the other stalling issues, I don't see how a pump would cause the trip 2 data to be reset.

That sounds like an electrical glitch of some kind...

Those are some good drugs. lol Can I have some? That does sound electrical. Bring it in.

Fred N Tampa said:

I'm driving my 2010 JSW on the interstate, 80 miles or so into a 450 mile trip running close to 80mph. I felt a slight buck and the tach and speedo bounced like crazy a few times with the idiot lights flashing. It was just a momentary thing. The trip computer reset it's self, both trip 1 and trip 2 data. Funny the cruise control did not reset. That was the only issue in 25K miles and have put on another 1K since. If this is related to the other stalling issues, I don't see how a pump would cause the trip 2 data to be reset.

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destroyed fuel system

I just picked up my repaired vw 2010 tdi sport wagon. Cost insurance company $5800 and $250 deductible from me. Whole fuel system replaced, gas tank, 3 pumps etc. Car has 7500 miles on it!! Bought new in August, 2010. Anybody else having this problem?

MPBsr said:

I always confirm which handle the gas jockey grabs before pumping, but even if I didn't, shouldn't pay to pay $10,000 because he made a mistake by pumping in gas.

This is def a design flaw by VW.

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I don't let any NJ jockey touch the pump when I re-fuel. If you go to the same station, they eventually remember you and you don't have to be as aggressive about it. Grow a set and be assertive "I've got it" is all I say and repeat if necessary. I don't leave the pump as I want to get it right up to the top. Left to the jockeys, you would be leaving about 3/4 of a gallon capacity behind.

Biodiesel is tough to find in NJ but it is there. I haven't ever bothered but I have considered making a special trip to the following link to buy 5 gallons for additive purposes.

http://www.woolleyfuel.com/

To put this back on topic, if a safety recall is issued, it wouldn't be an extended warranty as the investigation is based on the safety issue of total loss of power. However, even if the investigation fails to produce a mandatory recall, the visibility is likely to bring some VW action on this (inspect/replace pump). This is not a $10K per vehicle VW cost as it is just the pump we are talking about when done prior to an implosion. If an extended warranty was to be offered to 100K miles, I would not be thrilled by that as I would still be left holding the bag if it failed at 101K miles when I expect a 300K mile car at least.

andicame said:

I just picked up my repaired vw 2010 tdi sport wagon. Cost insurance company $5800 and $250 deductible from me. Whole fuel system replaced, gas tank, 3 pumps etc. Car has 7500 miles on it!! Bought new in August, 2010. Anybody else having this problem?

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Just do a search on this topic. HPFP failure, but you need to report your case with the NHTSA if you have not already done so. What was the reason your dealer denied warranty?

For the last 9 months I've been buying my diesel from the same station which only has 1 diesel pump. Remembering me or not, would prefer not to pump since I'm usually wearing a suit and you never know.

flylow2 said:

I don't let any NJ jockey touch the pump when I re-fuel. If you go to the same station, they eventually remember you and you don't have to be as aggressive about it. Grow a set and be assertive "I've got it" is all I say and repeat if necessary. I don't leave the pump as I want to get it right up to the top. Left to the jockeys, you would be leaving about 3/4 of a gallon capacity behind.

Biodiesel is tough to find in NJ but it is there. I haven't ever bothered but I have considered making a special trip to the following link to buy 5 gallons for additive purposes.

http://www.woolleyfuel.com/

To put this back on topic, if a safety recall is issued, it wouldn't be an extended warranty as the investigation is based on the safety issue of total loss of power. However, even if the investigation fails to produce a mandatory recall, the visibility is likely to bring some VW action on this (inspect/replace pump). This is not a $10K per vehicle VW cost as it is just the pump we are talking about when done prior to an implosion. If an extended warranty was to be offered to 100K miles, I would not be thrilled by that as I would still be left holding the bag if it failed at 101K miles when I expect a 300K mile car at least.

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