NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

El Dobro

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Harvieux posted one failing at approx. 90,000mi.
 

GoFaster

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It's also quite likely that if the pump survives the warranty period, that you got a good one. It is not a constructive exercise to replace a good one with a new one that has a small (but catastrophic) probability of "infant mortality". Also, every time you open a fuel system like this, there is a non-zero probability of something going wrong: assembly error, dirt getting in, air in the system leading to the pump spinning without coolant/lubricant (fuel) for a short time, etc.

I wouldn't do it. If the pump survives the warranty period, just keep on driving ... and keep your fuel receipts.

I would say that there is a fair probability of getting an extended warranty on the fuel system at the end of this. It's also probably a lot less likely that the dealer/VW will screw you around for alleged "misfueling" in view of the public and government scrutiny that this situation is getting.

I wouldn't hold my breath for a full fuel system replacement: $10,000 x 100,000 vehicles = $1 billion ... It's more likely that VW will extend the warranty so that they only have to fix the (say) 1 or 2 percent that eventually do fail, and leave the rest of them that have "good" fuel pumps to just keep on driving.
 

golfTDI1

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Someone had pointed out that it would be a good idea to scan/photocopy the receipts as they are sometimes printed on that waxy paper that tends to fade over time.
that's right, and there's nothing wrong with this...just a little CYA (cover your ass) and I'm doing this as well. Of course VW is going to be a little defensive in these cases, but I'm confident that if you do everything right in terms of documentation and maintenance if you did end up in a situation like this there really isn't much they can say. They can drag their feet or whatever but at the end of the day you're not gonna be the one stuck with the bill.

I STILL don't know of anyone who's been forced to pay out of pocket for this except one guy who admits that his family member accidentally fueled up with gasoline. And I think insurance may have even helped him out (My sympathy is with him)

Then there are the others like those 160...if you did do something stupid like accidentally put a gallon or two of gas in or something and had a problem, wouldn't you try to get VW to foot the bill? Probably...I don't know who these people are, and what they do with their vehicle...but I'm not gonna be so quick to be against VW. No, I don't work for them and I'm not quick to take their side either, but I call a spade a spade. I see there are many people who agree with me too. This is all I have to say!
 

MPBsr

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I shouldn't have to use a good good lubricity additive. The TDI should be ready and willing to drive right out of the box.

Yeah, this HPFP problem does bear many similarities to the so-called "Toyota Recall Disaster"...and that is that none of the vehicles Toyota recalled were ever proven to have accellerated on their own. It was all hype. Its been proved now time and again through many studies.

VW is also being "plagued" (Really? Only 160 complaints to date?) by complaints and from what I've seen there really is no evidence that the pump is bad. There are many, many owners many on this and other forums who are pushing their CR TDIs into the 100,000 mile mark with no HPFP issues. I'm highly skeptical of the few problems that have been presented. If you use good quality, name brand diesel and don't let the car sit for long periods of time, change you're filter at proper interval and maybe use a good lubricity additive I don't think there is anything to worry about.

There are always a certain number of defects per batch of cars regardless of manufacturer or part so a small amount of defects will present themselves within the first few thousand miles and will be covered under warranty with the proper documentation. I know I'll catch some flack for this, but just my opinion, but this whole thing has been blown way out of proportion.
 

eb2143

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It's also quite likely that if the pump survives the warranty period, that you got a good one.
What gives you this suspicion?
I think it's more likely that they're just too sensitive to poor fuel, rather than a rare manufacturing defect.

Great news update though.
 

El Dobro

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I shouldn't have to use a good good lubricity additive. The TDI should be ready and willing to drive right out of the box.
An additive VW says not to use in a CR.
 

LoyalWhite

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So I guess I'm safe?

Build date looks like the most recent update, and I use an additive.

Breathes a little easier. :cool:

 

dzcad90

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Build date looks like the most recent update, and I use an additive.

Breathes a little easier. :cool:

I don't want to burst your bubble, however the car was built in 11/10, which is the date of the most recent improvement to the fuel pump design.

However, that's when the FUEL PUMP design was improved. Those improved parts have to be manufactured, sent to the engine factory, engines have to be assembled, and then the engines have to be sent to the factory for installation. I would wager that the latest improved design doesn't make it's way into production vehicles until sometime aroud now.
 

JSWTDI09

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An additive VW says not to use in a CR.
I have NEVER seen this is writing. Anecdotal reports of dealerships stating this does not mean that VW is against additive use. Many (most?) dealerships do not know what they are talking about when it comes to CR TDIs. VW does not recommend any particular additive because they do not want to admit that they are necessary, and no additive maker pays VW to recommend their additive. As long as the additive is USLD compatible and it will not harm the emissions system, it should be safe (and perhaps wise) to use an additive. VW (to the best of my knowledge) has never failed to warranty a car due to additive usage.

Have Fun!

Don
 

LoyalWhite

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I don't want to burst your bubble, however the car was built in 11/10, which is the date of the most recent improvement to the fuel pump design.

However, that's when the FUEL PUMP design was improved. Those improved parts have to be manufactured, sent to the engine factory, engines have to be assembled, and then the engines have to be sent to the factory for installation. I would wager that the latest improved design doesn't make it's way into production vehicles until sometime aroud now.
So the way you read it is the design change was implemented in 11/10 at Bosch, not the actual start date of installation of the newly revised pumps at VW?

Wonder which one I have then?

John
 

dzcad90

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So the way you read it is the design change was implemented in 11/10 at Bosch, not the actual start date of installation of the newly revised pumps at VW?

Wonder which one I have then?

John
I think there's a date of manufacturer on the pump - it's on a white sticker. You can take a peek at it, though you might need a hand mirror to see it.

Edit: The statement is somewhat ambiguous: "Volkswagen implemented design changes for the HPFP in May 2008, September 2009 and November 2010...." That doesn't make it at all clear if the design was changed at that point or if the changes made it into production vehicles.

There was a thread floating around a while back where people were posting the content of the white sticker on the HPFP. Now that design changes have been confirmed and we have an approximate date range to work with we might be able to make SOME kind of conclusion as to what this data means.

This finding also lends some credibility to the poster that seemed to briefly make his presence known on this forum by stating that there's a database that VW has for which they knew which cars had a "defective" fuel pump. However, since the failures continued to happen after a certain point, this is likely why VW may not have acted upon this informaiton or made it available in the US.

Link to the thread:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=271304
 
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Harvieux

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Without tooting our horns too loud yet, I think this is very positive news. I have been really bummed lately because prime, lower mileage, non CR TDIs are becoming extremely hard to find and if they are found, the wholesale prices are quite stupid to say the least.:rolleyes:

Words can't explain how relieved I will be once or if this possible rectification commences. It will be fabulous to once again offer these CR TDIs at my dealership because the void of not offering them as well as the B5 Passat TDIs truly stunts my potential for a better bottom line. TG my service/repair side is good enough to take the slack.;)

I truly think the vigilance some here have taken to make waves, suggest NHSTA reporting, attempts to alert media, spreading info. via word of mouth, internet blogging, etc. played a significant role in where we are today. It still baffles me as to why there were so many people in denial when it was quite clear something was definately wrong here. Later!
 

timwagon

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So let me get this straight? 160 complaints for 97,000 cars sold?

160 complaints as of last fall, when the NHTSA investigation was opened.​


These are complaints either directly to NHTSA or documented by VW and turned over to NHTSA. There are certainly additional undocumented failures. Some of the NHTSA complaints were not on the VW list, which means that VW did not reveal all the pump failures.​



For earlier versions of the pump design NHTSA estimates a 1-in-200 failure rate. The actual failure rate is probably larger, and these failures are from cars that are still fairly new. The cumulative rate 2 or 3 years from now may be 1-in-100, or 1-in-50. Nobody knows what the upper failure limit will be.​



Also, NHTSA appears concerned that the pump has had 4 designs in 2-1/2 years. If it's just fuel contamination, why has VW redesigned the pump over and over?​



Finally, this is a safety issue. Stopping dead at highway speed is very dangerous.​



I agree that any new design can have issues, but this issue is serious enough to warrant the full investigation now underway, and it's a legitimate concern for all TDI owners.​



I'm not losing any sleep at night, but I disagree with the attitude that it's "normal" for this type of failure to be happening.​



It's not normal, or acceptable.​
 
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dzcad90

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My biggest problem with this issue is that the report states that a large percentige of these are blamed on gasoline contamination. However, the summary report doesn't state what testing method was determined to come to that conclusion. The styrofoam cup test is weak at best, but my gut states that this may have been the case in a lot of tests. The report also states there was a TSB issued by VW in May of 2010 stating that: "fuel system damage incurred by use of fuel not complying to ASTM-D-975 Grade 2 S15 (B5 or less biodiesel content) standards will not be covered under warranty." Edit: As a consumer, how am I supposed to know that what's coming out of the pump meets the above (or ANY) standard? I belive there's some kind of legal term like "Fitness for marketability" - basically that what you sell has to be able to be used wherever it's being sold without unreasonable accomodations by the owner being made.

If this is the case, the TSB should either state or point to a standardized testing method for suspect fuel. (This is all discounting the fact that in many states finding fuel that is less than B5 is difficult to do..)

I'm very surprised that in almost 9 months a copy of that TSB hasn't made it's way to this forum. Members with Alldata: Can someone post a summary of the TSB?

With all of the above being said - I do beleive that SOME failures are the result of gasoline contamination. This TDI is probably the first TDI that was ready to market to the masses in the US - It's powerful,has smooth delivery of that power in a feature filled car. It's also VERY quiet for a diesel. With that it's going to bring a few people who have been driving gasoline cars for so long that a misfuel is likely sheerly out of habit. Few owners will admit to misfueling the car when looking at the repair bill. I know that some of the users here wholly disagree with this line of thought, but I think it's closer to reality than those people think.
 
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El Dobro

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uhhh. VW says 5% biodiesel is fine, and biodiesel is the best additive you can get for lubrication of the hpfp.
Uhhh, no biodiesel around here and I'm not going to have it shipped in just to be able to drive my car because VW put out a POS HPFP to save a dollar per car.
 

El Dobro

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I have NEVER seen this is writing. Anecdotal reports of dealerships stating this does not mean that VW is against additive use. Many (most?) dealerships do not know what they are talking about when it comes to CR TDIs. VW does not recommend any particular additive because they do not want to admit that they are necessary, and no additive maker pays VW to recommend their additive. As long as the additive is USLD compatible and it will not harm the emissions system, it should be safe (and perhaps wise) to use an additive. VW (to the best of my knowledge) has never failed to warranty a car due to additive usage.

Have Fun!

Don
Which is what I've said too, but Plus 3 Golfer received an e-mail from VW stating as such. I've been using PS from the beginning, but I shouldn't have to, so I'm still holding VWs feet to the fire on this.
 

Second Turbo

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User non-compliance

timwagon:> If it's only caused by gasoline contamination,
> why three separate HPFP redesigns?


Because misfueling will happen, at a low incident rate, and
previous TDIs apprently didn't experience FP destruction
in those cases.

My read of this is that VW is admitting that the HPFP design
did fail to consider (or be tested for) end user non-compliance
with fueling requirements.

Glad to hear they re-designed it anyway. It was a factor in
my not being in any hurry to replace our 2003 TDI with a new one.

And the end users who mis-fuel, in all likelihood were
not paying attention when they did it, and will thus have
no recollection of it later. Check the receipts.
______
When we loan the TDI, we them to NOT replace the fuel used.
 

mysql

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Uhhh, no biodiesel around here and I'm not going to have it shipped in just to be able to drive my car because VW put out a POS HPFP to save a dollar per car.
It does not matter if biodisel is available to you. You said additives are not allowed, your statement is completely false.

For what it's worth, there's no bio locally available to me either, so I buy it online.
 

El Dobro

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You said additives are not allowed, your statement is completely false.
Actually, I was being sarcastic referring to VWs stance on additives for the CR engine.
 

tcp_ip_dude

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How many TDIclub members that have experienced this "catastrophic" failure and have paid out of pocket to have the problem fixed?

We all read one side of this story, and assume that big bad VW is against us all and hiding something. I would not be singing a different tune at all, because I drive, wash, and fuel my car, so I trust IF I get the unlucky opportunity of becoming a member the HPFP failure club, that my dealership and VW will take care of me. I will not bash them and quote what others have said, when I have had no problems and only experience excellent service from my dealer and VW.

~jb
Going from memory on this, but I believe that there were at least two reports very early on, Dweisel being one of them, both were attributed to gasoline misfueling IIRC, but don't recall any others reported after that. Can't speak to the veracity of the reports either.
 
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MPBsr

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I always confirm which handle the gas jockey grabs before pumping, but even if I didn't, shouldn't pay to pay $10,000 because he made a mistake by pumping in gas.

This is def a design flaw by VW.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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timwagon:> If it's only caused by gasoline contamination,
> why three separate HPFP redesigns?

Because misfueling will happen, at a low incident rate, and
previous TDIs apprently didn't experience FP destruction
in those cases.

My read of this is that VW is admitting that the HPFP design
did fail to consider (or be tested for) end user non-compliance
with fueling requirements.

Glad to hear they re-designed it anyway. It was a factor in
my not being in any hurry to replace our 2003 TDI with a new one.

And the end users who mis-fuel, in all likelihood were
not paying attention when they did it, and will thus have
no recollection of it later. Check the receipts.
______
When we loan the TDI, we them to NOT replace the fuel used.
Now that an "engineering anaysis" (EA) has been opened, NHTSA will likely seek data from Bosch and should get to the bottom of why the redesigns and also likely question the consumers that reported an incident to NHTSA as to VW's alleged "misfuelling" of their vehicle.

In the EA phase, ODI devotes more resources to the investigation, and develops a more detailed and complete analysis of the character and scope of the alleged defect. An IR, more detailed than that sent in the PE phase, is sent to the manufacturer, and after reviewing the response thereto, ODI may send one or more further IRs to the manufacturer. ODI may also send IRs to “peer manufacturers” and/or other companies. The agency may also conduct testing and vehicle (or motor vehicle equipment) inspections, either through NHTSA’s Vehicle Research Test Center in East Liberty, Ohio, or through contractors. ODI may also conduct surveys or other studies. ODI may meet directly with the manufacturer. Consumers who have reported problems may be contacted for further information.
But my bet is there's still a lubricity issue with US fuel that the early pumps (and maybe even the later ones) can't handle. As I said in this thread on the FIE Sept. 2009 Position Paper, the FIE manufacturers (which includes Bosch) likely have data to support their statement on lubricity as they don't make statements like this on a whim. I find it interesting that the statement was issued after the 1st redesign of the HPFP in May 2008 and in the same month as the second redesign - September 2009. Time should tell.:D
 

dieseldorf

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NPR is playing the same news today. Could not find a link to the story on their site.
 

naturist

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Regarding the "three redesigns" part of the issue, I'd like to suggest that it is likely VW follows standard corporate engineering practice: (1) some engineer designs a thing, using of course the best materials and procedures that occur to him to use; (2) adjustments are made as necessary due to testing evidence/failures and the thing is put into production; (3) after they've made a few (thousand? million?) somebody who may or may not be an engineer suggests cost savings that could be realized if the thing was just made a bit differently or with somewhat different materials -- usually this is either somebody in Purchasing who can get a deal or somebody in Accounting who sees that "we're not making enough profit;" (4) this causes a "small" redesign to save money/increase profit; (5) the thing is assigned to still another engineer with instructions to find a way to make it even cheaper; (6) repeat #3-#5 as often as possible.

So I'm not surprised that the HPFP would have been redesigned three times, I'm only surprised that this would have been done "to improve reliability." Oh, wait, "improve reliability" is another code phrase for "make it cheaper to produce."

Scepticism aside, they may well have had to redesign it three times to improve reliability. Experience in the field sometimes reveals weaknesses not expected in the design stage.
 

TDIMeister

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As someone who has worked for a Tier-1 supplier, I can attest to the above. "Latest" is not exclusively synonymous with "greatest".
 
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