Concerns about Emissions Modification Phase 2 for 2015 TDIs

Since this second phase fix has not yet been approved, we are somewhat in the dark as to how it will really affect the vehicles. European TDI owners (UK, Scandinavia, France) are very disatisfied with outcome of fix on their cars, to the point that a class action suit is in preliminary stages in UK for performance after the fix. True, their fix is different than ours because of different emissions requirements.
In the VW Court Settlement Emissions Disclosure Gen3 download it states:
If your car exceeds 40,000 miles (for automatic transmissions) or 70,000 miles (for manual transmissions) we will install updated emissions control system hardware - specifically a new Diesel Particulate Filter, Diesel Oxidation Catalyst, and Selective Catalytic Reduction Converter - that is needed to maintain emissions performance for the full useful life (150,000 miles) of your vehicle. As part of the Phase 2 modification, we will also install a second NOx sensor and corresponding software to improve the performance of the OBD system.
I was advised by a car expert in UK:
NOx has to be lower in the USA than in Europe. In the UK at least VAG has been forced by the threat of class actions to warrant the NOx fix against any consequential issues such as injector failure or sooted up EGRs. Injector failure because the fix imposes an extra cycle on the injectors meaning they have to work 50% harder and aren't always up to that in an older car.
Will we be covered by the warranty for injector failure?
How will life and performance of the vehicle be affected by two NOx sensors?
Us TDI owners and even gas VW's like to keep their cars for a long time. I see that the court settlement is referring to 150,000 miles as the full useful life of the vehicle.
Does that mean that VW predicts that these cars will perform differently than their product did in the past?
What are your thoughts on this Emissions Modification Phase 2?
Thanks so much

NO ONE KNOWS

But bear in mind ...

The European emissions modification is NOTHING like the American one. The European one showed up remarkably quickly after the scandal broke. The American one took more than a year, and EPA and CARB were insistent that any proposed modification have no significant adverse effect on performance, driveability, fuel economy, etc.

The phase 1 of the emissions modification addressed the "actual" emissions and recalibration of the engine. Phase 2 is supposed to address some remaining on-board diagnostic issues - and replace catalysts that may not otherwise last the full prescribed life of the emission control system.

If this is what actually happens (and again, NO ONE KNOWS) then phase 2 should have no bearing whatsoever on how the car drives.

To the best of my knowledge - Phase II has been approved - but VW needs to get the parts out to its dealer network to install them. And that involves manufacturing as well as distribution. Then there is the compensating the dealers for installing it (this is rumored to be 9 hours of shop time to install), as well as providing loaners.

GoFaster said:

NO ONE KNOWS

But bear in mind ...

The European emissions modification is NOTHING like the American one. The European one showed up remarkably quickly after the scandal broke. The American one took more than a year, and EPA and CARB were insistent that any proposed modification have no significant adverse effect on performance, driveability, fuel economy, etc.

The phase 1 of the emissions modification addressed the "actual" emissions and recalibration of the engine. Phase 2 is supposed to address some remaining on-board diagnostic issues - and replace catalysts that may not otherwise last the full prescribed life of the emission control system.

If this is what actually happens (and again, NO ONE KNOWS) then phase 2 should have no bearing whatsoever on how the car drives.

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Actually we all do know. EPA approved it 14 months ago. See page 6:

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/w...ssions_Modification_Disclosure_Volkswagen.pdf

I was told by VW USA two days ago that it hasn’t been approved yet. I called because I have been told both that it has been approved and that it hasn’t been approved.

Just a couple days ago, there were also some discussions on the Canadian TDI emission facebook group, regarding the phase II fix for certain Gen 3 2.0 TDI models being rejected (Source: one of the Canadian VW dealers).

Had three TDI's early 2000's wonderful cars and the original site was great; don't remember if it was Freds TDI Club or the TDI Club or whatever. Last week we saw a couple of TDI's at local dealers and starting thinking of getting another.

Problem is that it certainly appears that buying now is simply a real big roll of the dice as no one can, or no one is willing to answer questions-dealers that is.

Our first concern is what the second repair/modification might do to the car and secondly if the change is significant in a undesirable way, what recourse does the formerly satisfied owner have?

Dealer one was completely unwilling/unable to provide any info-which in and of itself was a gigantic red flag.

Dealer two was honest enough to say that no one really knows what the second phase is going to involve but they were able to give me a contact for the alleged area expert for the program.

It is my understanding that there is very little to no info about the second modification and essentially everything and anything is on the table-I specifically asked if the cars now were start/stop?, the answer was no, might that be part of the change? to the persons credit the answer was 'nobody knows'

Something else that is real fishy is that every dealer seems way too anxious to move what they have, almost as though the real details are known and that what is in store for owners might not be very good or that there just might be a tidal wave of stock getting ready to be released.

We were promised a timely call with our answers but of course this never happened.

Did I get bad info, perhaps but I also never got the call.

Things just don't feel right- I am very cautious regarding vehicle purchases-we are going to wait until the details come out-or until the asking price reflects the risk, or rather the risk I perceive.

Actually - there is plenty of information on this website if you look for it.

The latest I heard from a local dealer is that they haven't gotten word on when it will be available. And I think I can beleive that.

I hope the phase II fix comes soon. I'm at 20,000 miles now, and at the rate I put miles on, it'll be about 4 months before I cross 40,000 miles. I want to go in for phase II before 40K so I'll get another DPF later on.

I'm considering intentionally slowing my mileage accumulation by driving my husband's car, just to make sure...might do that if I start to get close to 40K and I don't have a notification for phase II yet.

Kevinski4 said:

Actually we all do know. EPA approved it 14 months ago. See page 6:

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/w...ssions_Modification_Disclosure_Volkswagen.pdf

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Sure, but no one has actually had it done and accumulated any real world experience with it.

scooperhsd-tnks but I ain't putting down 30-40 large on a Touareg without alot of info in writing from VW.

1.8 said:

scooperhsd-tnks but I ain't putting down 30-40 large on a Touareg without alot of info in writing from VW.

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This is not regarding the Touareg ... it's about those 2015 TDI models with the 2.0 EA288 engine.

Just a couple days ago, there were also some discussions on the Canadian TDI emission facebook group, regarding the phase II fix for certain Gen 3 2.0 TDI models being rejected (Source: one of the Canadian VW dealers).


Are you able to direct us to this information or copy and paste it here? Tried to locate the page without success. Was the fix rejected by the Canadian government?

Thank you!!

I'm with you on this. I love our TDI, loved the one we had before that, and hope to be able to purchase another. However, we are being kept mysteriously in the dark by VW. I was told by a representative at VW USA if the phase 2 fix is not approved by May 1, 2018, then VW will be obligated to buy back any 2015 TDI's that had been purchased after phase 1 or purchased prior to the held onto. At what cost to the consumer?
We considered purchasing a 2015 prior to knowing that a phase 2 fix was in the works. The salesperson glossed over this during our conversation with him. Decided to back out of purchase after following up with VW USA. Since then have attempted to do more research, difficult because the most important piece is so much unknown.
Here is the second reply that I received from the UK car specialist:
The second NOx sensor might affect the injection cycle. I was told about that by an engineer in a room full of VAG executives and lawyers. In the European fix the process of reducing NOx creates more soot that would then choke the EGR. So to ensure more complete combustion, that creates no more soot, the Euro fix introduces an additional injection cycle.
NOx has to be lower in the USA than in Europe. In the UK at least VAG has been forced by the threat of class actions to warrant the NOx fix against any consequential issues such as injector failure or sooted up EGRs. Injector failure because the fix imposes an extra cycle on the injectors meaning they have to work 50% harder and aren't always up to that in an older car.

To me, this is one major concern with the work to be done in phase 2. He states "aren't always up to that in an older car". I would venture to say that most of us plan to drive the TDI into that older car time frame. This is not encouraging.
Can someone speak to this issue?

I honestly don't understand why people are fretting about this. The fix(es) are elective, if you hear people are getting poor performance or failures after you can opt out. And any car can be subject to a random recall at any time, or develop a pattern of failures that you didn't expect when you purchased the vehicle. This is really no different, perhaps even less of a pain because you can simply say no.

I have no expectation of ever taking my GSW for a Phase II fix. First, I don't think it'll have enough miles on it (currently I haven't driven it for three weeks). And second, I don't see any benefit for me of getting the update. So I'll let it be. I've always maintained that with VW I am my own warranty, and that belief applies here as well.

Etoile said:

Just a couple days ago, there were also some discussions on the Canadian TDI emission facebook group, regarding the phase II fix for certain Gen 3 2.0 TDI models being rejected (Source: one of the Canadian VW dealers).


Are you able to direct us to this information or copy and paste it here? Tried to locate the page without success. Was the fix rejected by the Canadian government?

Thank you!!

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I don't know how to link that facebook group to the forum page

From:
Canadian VW TDI Owners
Public Group

The post opened on March 16 at 10:34am

"Do they have the second part of the fix available in B.C yet? I own a 2015 Tdi Golf."

Try to google if you can locate that specific facebook post.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

I have no expectation of ever taking my GSW for a Phase II fix. .

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Wow, you don't even want the phase 2 money?

He and I are in the same boat. we both bought our cars as new leftovers last spring.

We didnt get any compensation for the phase 1 fix (other than decent buying/leasing terms)

We are not eligible for any phase II compensation as we bought the cars knowing full well about the emmissions issues.

we do however get the 11yr 162k mile emissions warranthy though... for anything catastrophic.

fastalan said:

Wow, you don't even want the phase 2 money?

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This is what this is really about. Money. It's like when people say "I had to sell my car back to VW." Well, they didn't. They wanted the money. If you like the car and don't want to jeopardize its performance and longevity by getting the Phase II fix (not that there's data that says that's true), then what's it worth to you? Is it worth forfeiting the payout? That's the real question.

fastalan said:

I don't know how to link that facebook group to the forum page
From:
Canadian VW TDI Owners
Public Group
The post opened on March 16 at 10:34am
"Do they have the second part of the fix available in B.C yet? I own a 2015 Tdi Golf."
Try to google if you can locate that specific facebook post.

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Great FB page, thank you.
Found two other TDI FB pages.

Very helpful!

fastalan, I neglected to add, 'or any TDI "

Growler said:

He and I are in the same boat. we both bought our cars as new leftovers last spring.
We didnt get any compensation for the phase 1 fix (other than decent buying/leasing terms)
We are not eligible for any phase II compensation as we bought the cars knowing full well about the emmissions issues.
we do however get the 11yr 162k mile emissions warranthy though... for anything catastrophic.

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While I can agree a certain extent. The real question is the government will want all the cars to conform to the emissions revision they put out for VW. With that VW will have to come up with a way to entice the folks with their TDI's to stop in and get their phase II completed. So the only way I see that happening is providing some sort of compensation to get the cars back in. Wouldn't you think? Otherwise what's the point of going in and getting phase II completed?

The government has agreed to not get involved in the emissions after the settlement. All but a few of states. They cannot force you to get phase 1 or phase 2 if you don't want to. Your only loss is the warranty if you don't get phase1 and/or pahse 2 done. All the states that accepted money in the emissions settlement have no say any more. Unless you live in the few states that didn't take the money. Texas took the money. They can't refuse registration or any other tactic either.

blood money was all it took for the government to say everything is okay.

NH got 31 million from VW and can't think of ways to spend it fast enough.

Growler said:

He and I are in the same boat. we both bought our cars as new leftovers last spring.
We didnt get any compensation for the phase 1 fix (other than decent buying/leasing terms)
We are not eligible for any phase II compensation as we bought the cars knowing full well about the emmissions issues.
we do however get the 11yr 162k mile emissions warranthy though... for anything catastrophic.

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Can anyone verify this in writing? I thought the warranty was given with the intention of getting both fixes. Will having only phase one done when the second is available void the warranty?

No....although the warranty resets when phase 2 is done.

ntwrkd said:

Can anyone verify this in writing? I thought the warranty was given with the intention of getting both fixes. Will having only phase one done when the second is available void the warranty?

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If you think about this for a minute it's a non-question. You're entitled to replacement emissions components as part of the Phase II fix. You have a pretty big time window for replacement. If any of the same components fail outside the time window for Phase II, they're covered under warranty. So you're covered either way.

When Phase I is completed on a car, is there paperwork the vehicle owner signs that grants permission to VW to perform both phases of the fix? If so, when you bring your car into VW for repair work, you might get Phase II installed automatically once it's available. Et Voila! You are now warranteed!

Phase 2 involves a substantial amount of mechanical work to replace the catalyst assembly. They will need the car for a couple of days and provide you with a loaner.

Phase 1 was the software-only easy part. Phase 2 is the labour-intensive one.

Well, there goes my theory then!