97 Passat TDI start/stall

Car came in on a trailer....customer stated that the car was running fine, stepped down to pass someone and lost power and died. Went out this morning, started car right up, ran fine, came around the block and into the shop and the car died in the doorway. Checked codes with Launch scanner and found the following:

01050 Glow Plug ckt
00553 MAF sensor
00519 intake manifold pressure sensor

key on..glow plug light lights, then goes out, have SES light. Full communication w/ scanner.

Crank car, car will start right up, run for a couple seconds, then stall....appears to have good fuel pressure at all injectors while cranking. Unplugged MAF, no change.

Just looking for a direction to go in with this....have checked Identifix and AllData to no avail.....I can see we're going to have to update to a different repair software for Volkswagen, as the AllData just isn't cutting it for Volkswagen repair......

Edit.......got car started...appears to be pulling air from somewhere, evident by air bubbles in the line going to the injector pump. Also, car smokes BADLY out the exhaust...more of a brownish/grey than black colored, but an EXTREME amount of smoke...you'd think I was starting a detroit diesel rather than a Volkswagen

Is there a TDI mechanic in that area of WI?

It seems bad that somebody is probably paying you $50+ an hour to fix it and all you are doing is coming on here to get the details.

When the car won't start is the ECU getting power...109 relay?

When the car drives how low is the power...MAF?

Is the intake clogged?

If you clear the codes and drive it around the parking lot do all of the codes return in a 1/4 mile?

Try taking the downpipe of the turbo, does it still stall out.

First, to answer your questions.....

When the car won't start is the ECU getting power...109 relay?109 Relay is fine...at all times have glow plug light cycle and SES light...car will start and barely idle with a LARGE amount of greyish black smoke at all times.

When the car drives how low is the power...MAF?Car will not drive,...initially start and stall, but now will idle roughly with no throttle whatsoever....bubbles in inlet fuel line so next obvious thing is check fuel filter connections for air draw.

Is the intake clogged? Intake not clogged that I can see with a borescope.

If you clear the codes and drive it around the parking lot do all of the codes return in a 1/4 mile? Cannot drive car...SES light reappears shortly after startup.

Try taking the downpipe of the turbo, does it still stall out. No restriction in exhaust system.

As I said, car will barely idle, which I suspect is due to air in the fuel. No throttle response whatsoever...no change when MAP, MAF, CTS unplugged. Injectors ohm out fine, power to glow plugs, although relevency is questionable as the glow plugs shouldn't need to cycle unless temp is around 46 degrees.

Now, for your other comments.....

I don't pretend to be a VW guru...thats why I'm here. Whether it be IATN, Identifix, AllData, or here, I use what diagnostics and information I can find to help get my customers cars fixed quickly, efficiently, and fairly priced. We have only recently gotten into the VW's and TDI's, and as I'm sure you are aware in your infinite wisdom they're not for everyone. I don't normally post until I've exhausted any other options.....I post to learn more so I can run a more efficient business. You think it's unfair that I charge a customer labor when I come here and ask for advice.....I'm happy that you believe yourself to be so knowledgeable that you don't need any help or assistance from anyone. You have NO idea how I treat my customers, so who are you to say whether they're treated fairly? How do you believe techs or owners increase their knowledge of cars they're not used to working on? I come here under my own name and get slammed....if I had come in under a different username noone would have been the wiser. I'm honest enough to admit when I don't know....that's why I'm here. I take serious offense when people push the notion that all repair shops are crooked and just out to take your $$$$....I treat my VW customers VERY fairly, because of the fact that we DON'T do alot of them, and are still on the learning curve, and I tell them that UPFRONT when they come in, yet here we are, BECAUSE we're honest with our customers.

I'm sorry you feel someone is getting screwed here...after spending countless $$$ on european specific scan tools and specialty tools, I have yet to cover the costs for these items, let alone make a profit...what I HAVE done is give my customers an option to the other repair shops in town that do nothing but throw parts at the problem till they're fortunate and get lucky. At least when they leave here they know the problem has been correctly diagnosed, and only what was needed was replaced, even though it may take a bit since we're still learning about the ways of the VW/Audi cars.

Hopefully now you understand why I'm here....to better educate myself on these cars so we can fix them faster and more efficiently, while at the same time treating our customers fairly and not overcharging them....something that the other import shops locally DON'T do. I came here openly and honestly....I really didn't HAVE to, but I have nothing to hide, so why bother? I like working on something new, even though it gives me a headache trying to learn VW's diagnostics strategies......I believe that once a person can figure that out, theres more info to be found than on most asian and domestic models....the trick is figuring out how the system works.....

is the fuel tank full? If was, was it filled shortly before being put on the tow truck? (gas mixed with diesel?)

Try running the car off of a small bottle of diesel or ATF with a rubber hose from the injector pump to the bottle. This will eliminate the fuel quality and the bubbles if it continues to stall out.

shawnsautorepair said:

Car came in on a trailer....customer stated that the car was running fine, stepped down to pass someone and lost power and died. Went out this morning, started car right up, ran fine, came around the block and into the shop and the car died in the doorway. Checked codes with Launch scanner and found the following:

01050 Glow Plug ckt
00553 MAF sensor
00519 intake manifold pressure sensor

....


Edit.......got car started...appears to be pulling air from somewhere, evident by air bubbles in the line going to the injector pump. Also, car smokes BADLY out the exhaust...more of a brownish/grey than black colored, but an EXTREME amount of smoke...you'd think I was starting a detroit diesel rather than a Volkswagen

Click to expand...

- I'd say you've got a very clogged intake. Like, very clogged. Could be wrong. I'd start by looking there.

Update to previous post:
Cleared all codes, will barely start and smoke greyish black like CRAZY! Popped codes for MAF and MAP sensors once again. Removed ECM, checked for cracks in vacuum line...OK. Ran test on MAF to compare BARO and MAP...within 10 Mbar of each other. Put slight vacuum and pressure to the MAP...readings change with vacuum/pressure changes. Going to go more in depth into the MAP.

In regards to the MAF code, difficult to test actual vs. compared when the car will hardly run if at all. Unplugging MAF makes no change.

Checked down intake with borescope...no apparent carbon buildup...ports look very clean.

Still NO throttle response whatsoever, which I find odd.

Going to try the outside fuel source tomorrow and see what happens....car has 3/4 tank of fuel in it now. Can't believe it would be something that simple, but stranger things have happened....still wouldn't explain the MAP code....

Thing I find unusual is that the car started up and ran perfectly for about a block before going into this fit.....since then it hasn't come back out of it. Smoke would make a person think lack of airflow...however, the grey color is whats kind of odd.


Sorry for rambling...just thinking out loud as I type to see if theres anything I've missed.

Oh..and G60ING...sorry if I blew up.....I'm just trying to learn the intricacies (sp) of an auto I'm not too familiar with yet. I really do want to learn how to diagnose them better to better serve our customers, and where better than a TDI forum? That and the fact that unfortunetly there ARE alot of crooked repair shops out there....I don't believe in being one of them. If I can't figure something out it drives me NUTS till I do get it. In the last year I've yet to have to send a car somewhere else that we couldn't figure out and fix...I'm not about to start now!

If you have already tried running it with the downpipe disconnected the try running it off a bottle of ATF or known to be good diesel with it piped directly into the injector pump.

Trust me I stayed in a holiday inn express last night and I'm doing pretty dam good this week for internet trouble shooting of TDIs and G60s.

This happened all of a sudden. I'd start by trying to see if the tb system is OK - lock the cam and ip and see where the crank is. Could it have skipped a tooth?

You appear to be aware of the MAP being in the ecu box, and the little hose inside of that. The creation of codes for both the MAP and MAF lead me to wonder what's going on with the grounds - these are different systems but both need to be grounded.

rdkern, the odd thing is that it did this out on the road, left the customer stranded, got hauled in, when it was started and brought into the shop it started fine and ran fine for roughly a block, when it acted up again.

With the MAP and MAF codes, I'm wondering if the running issue isn't bringing up these codes due to a lack of airflow or pressure, since the car barely runs when it does run.....diving back into it this morning to see what happens, and I'll let you know what I find. Going to try running it on a different fuel source to see if that makes any change, and recheck grounds and such.

If nothing else works, I would check the timing - lock cam and ip and see where you are on the crank.

Ran it on ATF...car started and idled smoothly with very little throttle response. When I did this I clamped off the hose leading from the fuel filter to the I.P so as not to make a mess.

Pulled the clamp off the hose afterwards and got some pressure out of it, which I thought odd, as I wouldn't think there should be any pressure there, as the return should simply work like a bypass regulator off the pump, and drop excess fuel back to the tank, shouldn't it?

Replaced the fuel filter regardless, and after hooking up the stock fuel system, noticing bubbles again. New Oring on fuel filter, so the T fitting should have sealed properly.. I've seen people here talk about a problem with the tank pickup on certain models, but if that were the case, it still shouldn't be pressuring the feed side to the I.P from the return side, unless the tank pressure isn't venting when the fuel is returned.

Need to figure out where the air is coming from now......

Trying to document this as much as possible on here, so that others might be able to learn something.........

Oh...I also have no more check engine light coming on...

ATF? Wasn't aware that should be used. Oh well.

I understand the pressure - the pump is pushing the fuel back to the tank, and it's got to be pressurized by that action. You're pushing the unused atf back to the filter/tank with nowhere else for it to go.

Look at the "t" for cracks - put some mineral oil on it to see if the bubbles stop. If not, you might have a pickup or checkvalve problem.

Good luck.

the fuel line could also have a leak where the different material sections are mated

rdkern, I've seen you talk in other posts about the check valve/pickup problem but haven't been able to find a specific post on it....could you be so kind as to point me to it? Started looking closer at the fuel itself, and has a funny color/smell to it.....more of an amber color than yellowish, and does almost smell like gasoline....customer swears he didn't run gas in it, and that it's on the same tank of fuel that it had when he borrowed it from his sister....

I'm going to drain the fuel down and go with good known fuel, and perform the pickup repair as well, since I can't draw fuel either thru the filter or before the filter with an electric fuel transfer pump, which leads me to believe that there's an obstruction back down the line a ways, which may be causing it to draw air into the line around a clamp or fitting while trying to suck thru an obstructed pickup.

Here is some info I copied off this forum for reference....

Air bubbles in fuel

The fuel pick up has a molded plastic strainer mesh at the lower end. This strainer may be partially blocked by the DERV dirt that has accumulated over the years. Run the tank down to about 1/2 or lower and remove the float pick-up to examine it. The bung is below DERV level with a full tank, so don't try this topped off.
There's a check valve in the line so blowing air to back flush may not be possible with this valve in place.

The check valve is in the fuel delivery line on the exterior of the tank just an inch or two from the connection pipes on the bung.

Take the check valve out--and forget about it--unless you park on a severe hill--it was meant to keep the fuel from draining back under that condition-------mine totally plugged--then stuck--on a b4 wagon----


Using a mityvac or similar vacuum pump, draw fuel thru the filter. Use the filter port with the arrow pointing towards the engine.

It really is that easy!

Thanks guys! I used a vacuum pump to draw the fuel thru the filter and cracked injector #3 to bleed out any remaining air. I was still having problems keeping the car running after it was started. I noticed that there were still air bubbles in the feed line no matter how long I tried to bleed the air from the injector line. I ended up pumping the fuel that I had in the vacuum canister thru the feed line of the fuel filter while the #3 injector was cracked. Started up the car and then tightened the injector. Everything runs smooth now. No more air in the lines. Thanks again for all the help!

Jake, usually this is due to one of the seals in the IP. Most likely the pump head O ring. Put your hand under the pump head and see if it's slightly damp with fuel.

Dieselgeek sells a kit to replace this O ring.

Please post the resolution to the issue. I got sucked into the story.

Are there any leaks at all on the pressure side of the intake system? And from the air fliter to the turbo? Check the under sides of the rubber hoses, the oil sets in them and that is where the holes usually are.

Mine was a plugged CAT!

Check it!

Kurt