Xerootg's Jeep Cherokee BHW swap

xerootg

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Location
USA
TDI
Mk7 Golf Sportwagen, BHW Jeep XJ
We need updates! I'm preparing for a similar swap into a 4Runner. Same turbo and motor too!
Yeah yeah yeah... its been a couple months. I know. :)

So I bought a 2005 B5.5 variant. Its nothing special, but I've racked up enough miles up on it to be on its second oil change. It's due for a BSM delete and a timing belt.



While I wasn't working on my kitchen (we gutted it) or buying a Passat, I was busy filling my parts cabinet with parts.
I got:
Timing belt
BSM delete kit
Hybrid oil pan
Valve cover gasket
BEW underhood fuse box and coolant glowplug components
XJ stock intercooler (it was cheap)
T10392 gear puller
T10053 seal installer



So I started by inspecting the lifters and the cam, which the last owner had recently replaced. I put the valve cover back on and decided that I would be doing these on the next timing belt.



I then dropped the oil pan on the BHW and found part of the BSM chain tensioner in the bottom of the pan. No worries, I am doing the BSM delete anyway.



I dropped the BSM and was left with the sprocket on the crank.



Once I got T10392, I popped that sucker right off.




It took a while to get tools, so I started back at wiring. I mocked up the coolant glow plug wiring. I like it.



I reused the relay box off a BEW, and was very happy until I tried putting the cover on. I am thinking I will be doing this differently, I still need a couple relays and fuses. I'm leaning towards modifying the Jeep fusebox to work.



One major breakthrough I ran across was a complete manual AC wiring diagram. I needed relay 384 which is J314 or the compressor clutch control.
I will be reusing relay 384, I ran across these pin definitions on Passat World:
Pinouts for relay 384 are as follows:
2/30: +12 volts power from fuse 25
3/31: ground
9/75: input from A/C button on dash (see below)
8/87: output to A/C clutch (+12 volts to engage clutch)
1/87a: wire to ECM (probably an input to turn A/C off under heavy engine load, etc)
4: wire to instrument cluster (engine overheat warning lamp)
I really need to finish my kitchen before I make too much more progress, my garage is full of cabinets and flooring materials!
 

A-man930

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Location
St. Louis
TDI
Planning Stages: ALH Jeep MJ
Awesome thread. I'm probably looking at an ALH this weekend. Love to see more folks messing with XJ/MJs!
 

xerootg

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Location
USA
TDI
Mk7 Golf Sportwagen, BHW Jeep XJ
Good luck A-man! I've seen you around NAXJA, where the 4.0 is the only engine to own unless you happen to want to swap some variety of a LS ;)

Ok, new subject. Intercooler math (and engine air consumption)

I have a stock XJ intercooler. It was dirt cheap, I figured it was worth a shot. It's spec'd for a 2.5 VM (VM425) (2500CC exactly), with a boost limit around 15PSI and a 4300 RPM redline.

I have a 1968CC BHW, with a 4700RPM top end, and I want to push a little more boost than stock, somewhere around 23PSI. Maybe as high as 25-26PSI with the GTC1549VZ.

We need to look at the flow the stock intercooler would have experienced, in order to ensure air flows through that intercooler at below the target .4 mach speeds assuming that Jeep followed the industry best practice on intercooler design. Either way, finding the CFM the TDI makes compared to the VM425 will show if the stock intercooler is up to stock XJ levels of efficiency. The theory is that mach .4 will ensure the air has enough time to dissipate the heat generated by the process of boosting, while ensuring that I am not wasting effort to pressurizing too large of a volume. The magical measure from what I read is CFM or some other equivalent volume of air measurement when choosing an intercooler, so that's why I am choosing to calculate engine CFM and not use one of the other available measures of an intercooler's ability to dissipate heat.

Math:
Pressure Ratio (PR) = 14.7 + OBSERVED BOOST/14.7

CI*Redline RPM*detonations per stroke*VE*PR = CFM

(source)

We know that generally speaking the VM425 redlines at 4300, and its wastegated turbo produced 15psi real world on the average engine.

152.5594 CI*4300 RPM redline*0.5* 0.85/1728*((14.7 + 15)/14.7) = 327 CFM

Now, we know that engine absolutely did not make 15PSI of boost @4300RPM. More likely it made it between 2-3K RPM. That works out to 150-227CFM when the turbo is actually peaking on boost and a likely redline @10PSI for a grand total of 271CFM.

Ok, so now I have my 2.0L which has an actual displacement of 120.09CI, redline of 4700ish, and I want to make 25-26PSI if I upgrade the turbo. The stock turbo is making a real 21PSI in my daily driver, so we will do math for both to see if the XJ intercooler is enough.

My Passat at 21 PSI @ 4700RPMs would make 120.09*4700* 0.5 * 0.85/1728 * ((14.7 + 21)/14.7) or 337CFM. Right out the door it is dubious that the XJ intercooler is up to the job... but I know for a fact I do not make 21PSI@4700. I also happen to know that the XJ intercooler has more surface area across its tubes than a stock Passat, so lets keep going.

Real numbers are I make 21PSI at 3500PSI. This works out to a demand of 251CFM, so now we are more in line with what I expected.

I want to make 25-26 PSI, so lets do that same math for 26PSI@3500RPM. That's 286 CFM.

I know I can push 23 PSI, 265CFM.

Daily driving I plan on being under boost at 2k and driving between 2-3K RPMs, so my average demand should be between 163-245CFM. I do not consider Jeeps to be performance vehicles, so it is very unlikely I will be pulling the initially calculated peak 337 CFM at 21PSI@4700RPM much less the 384CFM of 26PSI@4700RPM

Its looking more and more like the decreased displacement of the 2.0 VS the 2.5L will actually make the stock XJ intercooler adequate assuming the stock XJ 2.5L diesel intercooler was adequate.

Does this make sense to others in the know?
 

tekno

New member
Joined
Dec 26, 2016
Location
Cluj-Napoca
TDI
Cherokee 2.5 VM TDI, preparing for 1.9 PD TDI swap
Here's a thought: the mk4 Golf with its transverse mounted engine has the right engine mount bolted to a aluminium bracket that is also a timing belt cover. Now what I am thinking is that if you take that engine with all the ancillaries, bolt it to the gearbox adapter plate, fit a cross member in front of the engine with two mounts on the frame rails, it would be a lot easier than having to fabricate brackets and mounts between the block and chassis where everything is cramped.

Something like this but with a beefier cross member:



HPA uses a similar set up but with a complicated (expensive) cross member that holds all the ancillaries.

Also i was wondering if it would be possible to keep the 4.0 CPS and required wiring and ecu as a cheap method to have a working tacho?

xerootg, i own a 2.5 vmtd XJ, stock intercooler sits behind the front bumper and crossmember, it has no direct air passing through it from the outside, the fan shroud is designed to cover the back of the intercooler and the fan sucks the hot air from the intercooler, theoretically. i had a boost leak this summer, one of the boost hoses split and i bypassed the IC for a few days, now at that time i did not have a working obd tool for that engine to look at intake temps but i did not feel any difference in top end power, it spooled a bit quicker. i plan to fit the intercooler on the right side of the engine bay, something similar to a top mount but it will be more of a "low mount", make a shroud/scoop for it beneath and fit a thermal switched fan over it. the place where it originally sits, seems like a very good place to have a stealth winch mounted... :D
 
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A-man930

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Location
St. Louis
TDI
Planning Stages: ALH Jeep MJ
Here's a thought: the mk4 Golf with its transverse mounted engine has the right engine mount bolted to a aluminium bracket that is also a timing belt cover. Now what I am thinking is that if you take that engine with all the ancillaries, bolt it to the gearbox adapter plate, fit a cross member in front of the engine with two mounts on the frame rails, it would be a lot easier than having to fabricate brackets and mounts between the block and chassis where everything is cramped.
This.
Also i was wondering if it would be possible to keep the 4.0 CPS and required wiring and ecu as a cheap method to have a working tacho?
iirc I think you need some form of cmp (in addition to the ckp) input to get the tach to function.
 

evguy1

Vendor
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Location
Erington, BC, Canada
TDI
2000 Jeep Cherokee TDI, 2008 Jeep JKU TDI
fit a cross member in front of the engine with two mounts on the frame rails, it would be a lot easier than having to fabricate brackets and mounts between the block and chassis where everything is cramped.
I started out looking at this but in the end went with the side mounts for a cleaner install and easier to change belts.
My XJ mount kit is pretty inexpensive and bolts to the original frame bolts as well as stock engine bolt holes.



Also i was wondering if it would be possible to keep the 4.0 CPS and required wiring and ecu as a cheap method to have a working tacho?
I did this and it works well. Used the stock Jeep oil and water temp sender to feed into the Jeep ECU which then runs the dash.
I did need to supply a cam signal to the Jeep ECU to make the tack work.



"low mount", make a shroud/scoop for it beneath and fit a thermal switched fan over it. the place where it originally sits, seems like a very good place to have a stealth winch mounted... :D
I also did this on my XJ and to be honest I still have not connected the thermal switch, I get enough airflow through the intercooler to do the job.
I think there is a picture on my built thread of the intercooler and fan.
 

xerootg

Veteran Member
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Oct 20, 2015
Location
USA
TDI
Mk7 Golf Sportwagen, BHW Jeep XJ
I also did this on my XJ and to be honest I still have not connected the thermal switch, I get enough airflow through the intercooler to do the job.
I think there is a picture on my built thread of the intercooler and fan.
What are the specs of your intercooler?

New years eve/day I'll be completing the timing belt and BSM delete on my B5.5. Looks like that might have been my last chance to work on anything at home besides my kitchen until March thanks to work.
 

A-man930

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Jul 29, 2014
Location
St. Louis
TDI
Planning Stages: ALH Jeep MJ
Now that I have an ALH to look at I see how little room there is on the left side of the block with the AC compressor right there and all. I'm very inclined to keep the jetta's accessory Drive completely intact.
evguy1: I'm very inclined to just use your mount kit; it looks like a very clean and complete set up and I love that it doesn't require you to hack up anything on the truck to use it. I would much prefer it to some kind of funky truss arrangement for sure. But seeing how you rearranged the accessory drive on your XJ makes me hesitate. Would there be any need to rearrange my AC bracket, tensioner, and whatnot while using your kit on an alh?
 
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BleachedBora

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Oct 16, 2003
Location
Gresham, Oregon
TDI
'81 DMC-12, '15 GL350 CDI 275 hp/448 tq - '81 Caddy CJAA, '05 E320 CDI 250hp/450 tq, '23 ID4 AWD Pro S Plus
Super cool build! And you're semi local :)
Good luck!
-BB
 

evguy1

Vendor
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Location
Erington, BC, Canada
TDI
2000 Jeep Cherokee TDI, 2008 Jeep JKU TDI
evguy1: I'm very inclined to just use your mount kit; it looks like a very clean and complete set up and I love that it doesn't require you to hack up anything on the truck to use it. I would much prefer it to some kind of funky truss arrangement for sure. But seeing how you rearranged the accessory drive on your XJ makes me hesitate. Would there be any need to rearrange my AC bracket, tensioner, and whatnot while using your kit on an alh?
I'm just today redesigning the drivers side frame mount after customer feedback which I REALLY appreciate.
I have not done an ALH install here just the BEW's so I cant say that the new mounts wont interfere but in a couple of weeks we should have customer feedback with an ALH install in an XJ.
I think it will work since I'm moving the drivers side frame mount back about 1.5".
 

evguy1

Vendor
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Feb 8, 2014
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Erington, BC, Canada
TDI
2000 Jeep Cherokee TDI, 2008 Jeep JKU TDI

xerootg

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Oct 20, 2015
Location
USA
TDI
Mk7 Golf Sportwagen, BHW Jeep XJ
OP, did you die?
No! I got tired of eating only bbq off the grill and toaster oven meals, and so did my wife... I've been spending my weekends on our kitchen remodel instead of the Jeep. We bought a smoker house back in June and have been remodeling it ever since, and as of about two months ago you cannot smell smoke anymore. If you want to see just how drastic of a kitchen remodel I'm talking, here's a quick album. Its just my wife and I working on it after work and on weekends, so its slow progress. This weekend I'll be assembling cabinets. Next weekend... I'll be assembling more cabinets or maybe installing some.

I did sneak into the garage on Monday (I had the day virtually off due to being snowed in) and finished the BSM delete.



A quick trick to pull the bolt holding an ALH pulley on to replace it with a BRM pulley, get your ALH chain and chuck it in a vice.



Once I make more headway on the kitchen I'll be able to start pulling the 4.0 out of the Jeep, but I really need to focus on having a completed kitchen...
 

xerootg

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Oct 20, 2015
Location
USA
TDI
Mk7 Golf Sportwagen, BHW Jeep XJ
I got the bottom end buttoned up, I used a hybrid pan, just like EVGuy.



I finally finalized my compressor mounting!



In the stock position, the compressor rotates counterclockwise, and the 4660 I bought is spec’d for clockwise. I also was not happy with the proximity to the bottom of the 120A alternator. This lead me to think that I may need to give up trying to use the factory location. I also wanted to avoid the hot side of the block (turbo, whatnot) so I really wanted to stay on the same side as stock. While I was looking for some fab tabs for building a new mount, I ran across some interesting “York to Sanden” mounts for classic cars.



On EBay you can buy these as a pair, and when stacked back to back, you get a 65mm offset. This was enough to reverse the belt rotation!



I think I saw that EVGuy has a new and improved left engine mount that is further back, I need to get with him and see what the deal is, cause the room behind the compressor just will not do, the interference with the emergency bypass valve will likely lead to the compressor’s failure.



I used a laser level to line everything up, now once I get motor mounts figured out, my only excuse for not tossing this engine in the Jeep is my garage is a mess!



I’ve also been working on a new and improved CCD translator, this one will use a GM Oil Pressure Sensor to drive the cluster, and will handle the odometer pulses and speedo bytes the cluster expects. I still fully intend on removing the Jeep ECU.



As an added bonus, I got a cluster out of a Diesel XJ (Jeep part 56010196AC), and the “diesel message center” (Jeep part 56009639) that has the Glow Plug and Fuel in Water lamps.



I've written enough CCD code to reliably drive the cluster, and even have distance down.

 

evguy1

Vendor
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Feb 8, 2014
Location
Erington, BC, Canada
TDI
2000 Jeep Cherokee TDI, 2008 Jeep JKU TDI
This is the problem we all have with the accessories.
On my first two projects I make a plate to move the whole accessory bracket up 6". It has been working well over the last 2 years so I did an update on it for this new JK build and if it all works out as planed I will start to offer it on the website.
here are a couple of pics.
New accessory mounting plate
The back side now has lots of room for the AC outlets and the alternator is still lowwer then the top of the engine.
New accessory mounting plate rear
 

All Stock

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Oct 6, 2014
Location
Michigan
TDI
AHU
Are you putting the motor in with the motor slanted back to the turbo side? Your coil spring Cherokee front end may not support having the compressor in that location. The front frame section is basically the same as a TJ. With the engine bore centerline straight vertical that compressor will be right where the upper control arm mount to the frame is. You may be doing a long arm kit. Adding to this, consider the steering selector shaft location as well.

This pic prompted changes.. PWR STR ended up on int/exh side of motor. Its an AHU but the accessories are basically in the same location.. this pic is with a 4" lift that with the tdi was nearly a 5.5" compared to the 4.0l
 
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xerootg

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Oct 20, 2015
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USA
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Mk7 Golf Sportwagen, BHW Jeep XJ
Yep, I have EVGuy's engine adapter and mounts. They are very nice quality.

As to the accessory position, I am going to try to use stock bracket positions. I understand they may have to move. I still have some kitchen (one cabinet and then countertops) to finish before I can pull the engine in my Cherokee and start playing with fitment, but there is such a list of stuff to do in the meantime. As to the compressor location, we will see if it is really an issues since it is all within the inside of the motor mount frame bracket and does not stick down further than the oil pan. People have not been having issues with ALH's and I believe they have low mounted accessories. EVGuy's video is the best images I have seen so far showing clearances with suspension components and what not, it looks like the track bar is in more danger of contacting than the UCA mount. If the track bar contacts, I will move it. If the UCA contacts, I'll move the accessories.
 

evguy1

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Feb 8, 2014
Location
Erington, BC, Canada
TDI
2000 Jeep Cherokee TDI, 2008 Jeep JKU TDI
I didn't have any UCA problems but did do a 2" spring spacer and with the lighter TDI engine I also gained another inch for about 3" lift.
The track bar was a problem and I tried to get Rusty's to build me one / some with the right bends but they were very hard to deal with. In the end the guys down the road at Northwest Fab bent me up a great bar.
I had also though about using a 2" drop pitman arm and then a 2" drop on the track bar. That may have been easier but I suppose also required a custom adjustable track bar.
 

A-man930

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Jul 29, 2014
Location
St. Louis
TDI
Planning Stages: ALH Jeep MJ
I didn't have any UCA problems but did do a 2" spring spacer and with the lighter TDI engine I also gained another inch for about 3" lift.
The track bar was a problem and I tried to get Rusty's to build me one / some with the right bends but they were very hard to deal with. In the end the guys down the road at Northwest Fab bent me up a great bar.
I had also though about using a 2" drop pitman arm and then a 2" drop on the track bar. That may have been easier but I suppose also required a custom adjustable track bar.
What exactly was the issue with the track bar? What interfered with it?
 

evguy1

Vendor
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Feb 8, 2014
Location
Erington, BC, Canada
TDI
2000 Jeep Cherokee TDI, 2008 Jeep JKU TDI
The oil pan was looking close. I never did a full cycle of the suspension to see how close it got.
Maybe its not a problem but have a close look at it.
 

A-man930

Veteran Member
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Jul 29, 2014
Location
St. Louis
TDI
Planning Stages: ALH Jeep MJ
OP what did you decide to go with for an intercooler? I'm curious to see if the entire front rad/intercooler/condenser arrangement from either the factory 2.1 or 2.5 diesel rigs could be utilized for a swap.
I'm having a hard time finding pictures of either of these arrangements (doesn't help that Photobucket is holding everybody's build pictures hostage...) would you mind sharing a pic of the factory cooler you're considering?
From what I can gather the 2.5 (VM425??) mounts the intecooler behind a full-width radiator; is this true?
What about the 2.1 Renault rigs? Is the intercooler off to the side of a narrow rad. or is it also "stacked"?

Anxious to see some progress on your build soon!
 
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