106 MPG & more -- not for sale in America

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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Aug 16, 2004
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South of Boston
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I think dangerously slow is (almost) complete nonsense. With a little planning and looking ahead I've never had problems driving low powered cars in the US or elsewhere. The biggest challenge I recall is merging onto the Merritt Parkway, were some onramps have stop signs at the end. And where in non-rush hour traffic it's not uncommon for people to go 80 MPH. But it can be done, safely. Just takes a bit of planning.

I don't know what the 0-60 time is on my M-B, but it's not quick, weighing 3500 lbs. empty and having 120 HP. It may not be exciting, but it certainly isn't dangerous.

Americans are addicted to power, or they're told by marketing organizations that they should be addicted. But in truth they rarely use all the power their cars have.
 

tditom

Top Post Dawg
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Sep 5, 2001
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Jackson, MI
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formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
The Merritt Parkway is a great example of a roadway that could be really hazardous with super slow cars entering. When that road was built in the 50's there was no clue that traffic congestion would become as bad as it has. Of course there is no way they could have predicted how inconsiderate and selfish people could become (I'm talking about the d-bag talking on his phone going 80 in his BMW weaving in and out of traffic- not you trying to merge onto a highway from a full stop at the end of the ramp)
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
And oh yes they are out there. If traffic is heavy and fast I wouldn't hesitate to blow off the stop to have more merge speed. And only a few of the ramps have stop signs.
 

3516ACERT

Veteran Member
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Feb 1, 2010
Location
Maryland
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2010 JSW
Gerhard Plattner is a high mileage champion driver. I could not find mention of his tactics, and just because he "drove on a motorway" doesn't mean he drove anywhere near the speed limit.

I would like some more data about average speed on this trip.
 

rotarykid

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Location
Piedmont of N.C. & the plains of Colorado
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1997 Passat TDI White,99.5 Blue Jetta TDI
Realistic expectations of what vehicles are capable and general driver training (at least comparing US to Europe) is a big factor.

When's the last time you drove in a major US city, DPM?
I drove my 91 Jetta D around LA , Riverside CO and OC two years ago without a single issue . I drove through and in all the major cities between my home in NC and CO in many cars with this engine on my traveled route and never had one safety or other power related issue . Until last fall I drove the same car daily around Denver , it still is today in it's new owner's hands . I'm not exaggerating when I say it only has 25-35 hp / ~45-50 Lb-ft up here in the Denver area .

I've driven cars with this engine up here for over 20 years now low power has never been an issue safety or otherwise . I've driven cars with the 1.5 & 1.6 L engine all over the country from their introduction in the US . My last Toyota diesel pickup struggled to achieve 70 mph but still had no trouble maneuvering around in metro traffic . With a manual trans they have no trouble in what ever situation that might arise in everyday driving .

In Colorado on urban freeways 65-80 mph is a commonly clocked speed . On rural freeways it's not uncommon for speeds to be 80 minimum topping out around 90 mph , 68-75 is the normal travel speed on rural highways . If this lower power engine can safely propel me over 1,000,000 miles like it has in many cars it can do it for anyone else at speed . It has little trouble holding 75-80+ mph for hours on end over varied terrain .

They drive really fast in Europe and most of their consumer transport is less than 2.0 L powered . With a lot of it powered by 1.0-1.8 L gas & diesel engines . I drove lower power 1.3 & 1.5 L Toyota's at higher speed in eastern & middle Australia in the mid 90s without issue at speed of 130-150 km/hr . I've owned and driven more than a few gas models in the late 70s & early 80s that had 100 hp /100 lb-ft or less and never wanted for power . Every diesel I ever owned from that era was less than 75 hp / 110 lb-ft . More than a few , most in fact were in the high 40s to low 60s hp / mid 50s to 70 lb-ft rated @ sea level range . With real power levels in the higher altitude west in the 25-35 hp / 30-45 lb-ft range . Where I was no one ever drove 55 mph , we all drove 65-75 mph on rural freeways during the 55 limit time with these cars .

So don't tell me this bullsh!t that lower power levels are a safety issue because from my over 3 decades of driving over 3,000,000 miles they never have been . This is a ridiculous argument with no basis in reality .
 

rotarykid

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Location
Piedmont of N.C. & the plains of Colorado
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1997 Passat TDI White,99.5 Blue Jetta TDI
The Merritt Parkway is a great example of a roadway that could be really hazardous with super slow cars entering. When that road was built in the 50's there was no clue that traffic congestion would become as bad as it has. Of course there is no way they could have predicted how inconsiderate and selfish people could become (I'm talking about the d-bag talking on his phone going 80 in his BMW weaving in and out of traffic- not you trying to merge onto a highway from a full stop at the end of the ramp)

How does having more power help or make it safer ??? It really doesn't . I've driven lower power models and extremely powerful models in your described situation and the extra power made no difference when dealing this . Every lower power model I ever driven or owned had plenty of power through gearing to get moving off the line which is what you are talking about here .

The 0-45 to 55 mph range on most of the lower power models is similar to anything sold today with in reason or usefulness . My 91 Jetta D jumps to 25-35 mph which is what is useful in your described situation . Their 0-45 mph times are going to be very similar to a much higher power model . The real difference is in the 45-60 times which is a completely different argument that has nothing to do with safety .

If the take off times which aren't that slow in any lower powered model I've ever driven in the useful range of 0-45 mph isn't enough to deal with traffic then their power isn't the issue but the way others are driving is . Now these things are not that good with automatic transmissions , they loose too much of their limited power in them . But they weren't ever designed to be used with one .

But that isn't an issue in the rest of the world because most drivers really don't see the point of going to the trouble of getting fuel efficient model with a smaller displacement engine then handicapping the fuel economy of the thing with a stupid automatic transmission :confused:. That is the real difference , lower displacement and power models are manual trans only for the most part . They have plenty of gearing to get them moving quickly in lower speed emergency situations . So this discussion of them being a safety issue is a mute point with no basis in reality .
 

DPM

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Location
Newtownards, N. Ireland
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2019 Rav4 AWD Hybrid, Citroen C4 BlueHDI
^^yup to all.
Tom, I've never driven in the US and if all the drivers are as stupid and thoughtless as you describe I have no desire to.

My first car was a 903cc Yugo, with 45hp. And for the first year after passing my test I was restricted by law to 45mph. Yet I was able to safely negotiate all traffic situations (including motorway merges) with those restrictions.
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
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Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
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SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
I think agricultural machinery should be looked at if they want to complain about emmisions, where are the dpf's etc for them, they belch out smoke all day long ploughing, sowing seed etc and the little humble car gets all the grief.

Tell me about it! The Burger King fast food restaurant down the road from my work bellows thick, greasy, brown smoke all day long. I'd wager good money that a single day's emissions from their smoke stacks is equivalent to MONTHLY emission of 150 average diesel vehicles that pass by it each day. At least!

Why aren't they regulated here? Politics.
 

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
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Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
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Only the B4V left
...And we should regulate all the homes in the cold weather states as well. The HORROR or burning 500 gallons of nasty mix heating oil pollutes more than my TDI ever thought. And the people burning unregulated wood...OH, THE HORROR!!! SAVE US, SAVE US!!!
 

waspie

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2011
Location
ne ohio
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05.5 pkg2!
Driving in the US is pretty chilled-out compared to parts of europe ... try driving in Greece/Portugal/Spain/Paris... :)

Even here in the UK the driving is quite a bit more aggressive than I experienced in LA or Denver.
You can say that again. My wife and I went to Paris for our honeymoon in late December. I can only describe driving over there as a "free for all" or loosely "organized" chaos. I took video from the top of the Arc to show everyone when we got back. I don't know how they do it, i've never experienced anything like that here, anywhere in the US.
 

oxford_guy

Veteran Member
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Mar 19, 2011
Location
Ohio
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Golf '11
...And we should regulate all the homes in the cold weather states as well. The HORROR or burning 500 gallons of nasty mix heating oil pollutes more than my TDI ever thought. And the people burning unregulated wood...OH, THE HORROR!!! SAVE US, SAVE US!!!
I'm all for closing loopholes. One of the worst is when neighbors burn leaves. That literally fills up other homes with noxious choking fumes.

However, in general, the air quality near highways is worse than the air quality around homes. Sitting in traffic during twice daily commutes makes people concerned about air quality. And, despite the other sources of air pollution, vehicular pollution does add up. I can't stand being near gasoline cars that have no catalytic converters and unclean diesels are no fun either. Recent research has found that vehicular pollution causes brain damage. Other research found that living within (I think it was 30) miles of a steel mill leads to permanent DNA degradation. So, not only are you harmed by it, your future children will be as well.

I do recall reading that the greater source of pollution is from old farm machinery, so instead of taxing us almost $10000 for each person who wants an electric toy car, perhaps there should be incentives to replace the worst offenders.
 

Lightflyer1

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Round Rock, Texas
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2015 Beetle tdi dsg
You don't even want to be around my 1935 Ford flathead V8 or the 1954 Chevy 1/2 ton truck I have then. There are times when driving it, the exhaust smell brings back old memories.
 

timwagon

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2010
Location
Hauppauge, NY
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2010 Jetta Sportwagen Stick
...And we should regulate all the homes in the cold weather states as well. The HORROR or burning 500 gallons of nasty mix heating oil pollutes more than my TDI ever thought. And the people burning unregulated wood...OH, THE HORROR!!! SAVE US, SAVE US!!!
Yes, we should regulate home heating oil...

As a matter of fact, New York state recently passed legislation requiring heating oil to be ULSD, and there's also a tax rebate for using biodiesel.

New York City is phasing out heavy fuel oils, as those older boilers that use #4 and #6 oil generate 85% of building emissions from only 1% of the buildings.

Yes, home heating systems do pollute, and some folks are doing something to ease that pollution.

The usual left-wingers supported the law, including the Home Heating Oil Dealers Association and the American Lung Association.

Air pollution kills people. I'm glad something's being done about it.
 
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timwagon

Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
Hauppauge, NY
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2010 Jetta Sportwagen Stick
106 MPG?

Yes, from a "world champion high mileage driver".

Completely meaningless publicity stunt.

Also, most of the cars on the list have very small engines, 1.2 liter, 1.6 liter, etc...

There's nothing magical about these mileage figures.

Small cars with small diesel engines get good mileage.

Americans have made it clear that, until recently, they had little or no interest in small cars or small engines. That's changing, but it's not surprising that cars are more efficient in the EU, where fuel is typically twice as expensive as in the U.S.

Maybe a list of bicycles would also be appropriate. They can get 50 miles per energy bar.
 

740GLE

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Location
NH
TDI
2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
...And we should regulate all the homes in the cold weather states as well. The HORROR or burning 500 gallons of nasty mix heating oil pollutes more than my TDI ever thought. And the people burning unregulated wood...OH, THE HORROR!!! SAVE US, SAVE US!!!

ULSWood is in the works in Augusta, don't worry!!!
 

timwagon

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2010
Location
Hauppauge, NY
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2010 Jetta Sportwagen Stick
Americans don't want fuel-efficient vehicles, eh?
I didn't say that.

Here's what I did say:

"Americans have made it clear that, until recently, they had little or no interest in small cars or small engines. That's changing, but it's not surprising that cars are more efficient in the EU, where fuel is typically twice as expensive as in the U.S.".

Unlike you, I'm not familiar with all the technical jargon associated with logical flaws in an argument. What's the technical term for putting words in someone else's mouth?
 

oxford_guy

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Ohio
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I didn't say that.

Here's what I did say:

"Americans have made it clear that, until recently, they had little or no interest in small cars or small engines. That's changing, but it's not surprising that cars are more efficient in the EU, where fuel is typically twice as expensive as in the U.S.".

Unlike you, I'm not familiar with all the technical jargon associated with logical flaws in an argument. What's the technical term for putting words in someone else's mouth?
Is the Passat a bicycle?
timwagon said:
I'm not familiar with all the technical jargon associated with logical flaws in an argument. What's the technical term for putting words in someone else's mouth?
I believe the term you're looking for is inference. The trouble with inference is that it tends to make irrelevant comments relevant, even when the person wasn't intending for his/her comment to be very useful.
 
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rotarykid

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Apr 27, 2003
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Piedmont of N.C. & the plains of Colorado
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1997 Passat TDI White,99.5 Blue Jetta TDI
Gasoline is still , just far too cheap in America .......Until this changes Americans will always look at fuel efficiency as a luxury not a necessity . Until this changes we will not choose the most fuel efficient model for what we need to do .

I'm 6' 1 " 190 lbs and have never had any trouble fitting into and driving the smallest of models . And I drove really small cars in the late 70s and mid 80s . I traveled all over the world in the 90s and drove models just as small that are no longer on sale in the US . Most of my friends are my height or shorter so would have no trouble driving any smaller model . I have a couple of friends that in the 6' 5" range and they don't have any trouble fitting into my A2 Jetta or the current Jetta or Passat . I just don't buy this crap of Americans not fitting into smaller models ...........

Americans are comfortable riding around in a lower mpg over sized SUVs or pickups nothing more . And they will continue to do so because the cost at the pump isn't high enough today change that . Until it does cost them enough per fill up to get their attention that will not change .
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Amen, rotarykid. I completely agree. High fuel prices that stay high are what will change behavior and buying patterns. Right now people just wait for them to fall, and they do. We don't learn because we don't have to...yet.
 

oxford_guy

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Ohio
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Gasoline is still , just far too cheap in America .......Until this changes Americans will always look at fuel efficiency as a luxury not a necessity .
This is plainly contradicted by the DailyTech article.

It doesn't just say Americans think fuel efficiency is important. The research finds that it's the #1 criteria. This "Americans don't care about fuel efficiency" stuff is just not true, and hyperbolic at best.
I just don't buy this crap of Americans not fitting into smaller models ...........

Americans are comfortable riding around in a lower mpg over sized SUVs or pickups nothing more . And they will continue to do so because the cost at the pump isn't high enough today change that . Until it does cost them enough per fill up to get their attention that will not change .
Small cars are selling like hotcakes and the notion that the only thing on our roads are large vehicles is just not true.

Besides, the Passat and other cars that I have in my list are very fuel efficient and hardly constitute small cars. It's just a simple fact that the Passat is available elsewhere with much better mileage than even what the upcoming model will have.

Americans are being taxed around $10,000 for each set of tax breaks so people can buy generally impractical electric cars. There is a lot more going on here than Americans' taste in vehicles.

We have a system that rewards inefficiency, like the ethanol subsidy and the electric car tax incentives. And neither of those things has anything to do with a taste for pickups and SUVs.
 

oxford_guy

Veteran Member
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Mar 19, 2011
Location
Ohio
TDI
Golf '11
It's also important to keep things in perspective. The size of the UK market is much smaller than the market in the USA. Add up all the small vehicles in the USA and you have a market that's bigger than the market in the UK.

Add onto that the fact that even family-size cars like the Passat can be made more efficient and you have an even larger market.

A friend of mine got a call about a used Miata. She wanted to replace her daughter's pickup and was willing to come from many states away to get a car that uses premium fuel but has a four cylinder engine -- in the hopes of finding better efficiency. Maybe fuel prices seem low to some of you, but they make a difference to others.

There is a market for more efficient diesel powertrains, but it's as yet mostly untapped.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
AFAIK the Ford F150 is still the best selling car/light truck sold in the US. Hardly a small car. And the other best-selling cars (Accord and Camry) get fuel economy in the low/mid 20s in real world use. Also not that small. Don't know what small cars are selling like hotcakes, but it will take a long, long, time for the fleet to change significantly.

And Americans think fuel efficiency is #1 today. And what they say versus what they buy are two different things. I have people walk in here all the time asking what we do, and when I point to my wagon and say it gets 45 MPG they're astounded. Didn't even know it existed or was possible. So when most Americans are saying fuel economy is most important, they thing 25 or 30 MPG would be fine. After all, what are they getting now (actually, I still maintain they have no idea).
 

timwagon

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Hauppauge, NY
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2010 Jetta Sportwagen Stick
The survey is more of a wish-list for a potential new car than an indication of which cars folks will actually be buying.

Top 10 vehicles, based on actual sales, for 2010:

Ford F150*
Toyota Camry*
Chevy Silverado*
Honda Accord*
Honda Civic*
Toyota Corolla
Nissan Altima*
Honda CR-V
Ford Fusion
Chevy Malibu*

No real surprises on this list, as seven of the 10 (with asterisk) were also top sellers in 2005.

I don't see any radical change in actual buying behavior when comparing the 2005 / 2010 top selling lists.
 
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n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
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Location
Nashua, NH, USA
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2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
I have people walk in here all the time asking what we do, and when I point to my wagon and say it gets 45 MPG they're astounded. Didn't even know it existed or was possible. So when most Americans are saying fuel economy is most important, they thing 25 or 30 MPG would be fine. After all, what are they getting now (actually, I still maintain they have no idea).
45 MPG while driving it like you stole it and batteries not required. :cool:

LOL, I often LOL at radio and TV ads for gassers claiming to get top fuel mileage. "....and it gets an impressive 31 miles per gallon !!!!"

You know they don't have a clue when you get the usual "but diesel is soooo much more expensive....." when you try to open their eyes to diesel.

I agree with rotarykid, fuel prices aren't high enough yet.
 

JSWTDI09

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Jan 31, 2009
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Las Vegas, Nevada
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2009 JSW TDI (gone but not forgotten)
Ford just announced today that they plan to bring their 1L 3 cylinder "Eco-Tech" (gas) engine to the US to get over 50mpg in their small cars. We shall see what happens (and how many they can sell).

Have Fun!

Don
 

rotarykid

Top Post Dawg
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Apr 27, 2003
Location
Piedmont of N.C. & the plains of Colorado
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1997 Passat TDI White,99.5 Blue Jetta TDI
45 MPG while driving it like you stole it and batteries not required. :cool:

LOL, I often LOL at radio and TV ads for gassers claiming to get top fuel mileage. "....and it gets an impressive 31 miles per gallon !!!!"

You know they don't have a clue when you get the usual "but diesel is soooo much more expensive....." when you try to open their eyes to diesel.

I agree with rotarykid, fuel prices aren't high enough yet.

+++++1 , I just shake my head when see a commercial touting :eek:30mpgs:eek: as being the end all of what can be done today . Americans have short memories indeed . In 1985 most auto makers had a number of models gas & diesel before the end of CAFE that had little trouble achieving mid 40s mpgs . By 1987 with passing of the end of yearly increases in CAFE everyone of those were dropped from sale in the US market .

Again , the auto makers didn't stop producing these cars they just stopped selling them here when the pressure of CAFE was removed . In 1986 real CAFE was close to or just over 40 mpgUS in 1987 it dropped to 26.5 . One big drop without the required in law CAFE rule of 40 mpgUS by the early 90s .

With the misuse of the Loophole class to produce passenger vehicles CAFE real world bottomed out @ ~14 mpgUS in 2004 MY . ....... That is a 3 fold drop in CAFE in less than 20 years which has hurt America in ways we can't calculate yet . Today it is still under 20 mpgUS real world CAFE which is inexcusable . We could easily hit a real world 40 mpg CAFE if we so chose today .
 
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