NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
It's a completely different system. Theoretically possible, but completely impractical, and lowering the pressure isn't what you want to do, anyway. The 2004-2006 system is completely incompatible, the 1996-2003 system is almost completely incompatible.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
It's a completely different system. Theoretically possible, but completely impractical, and lowering the pressure isn't what you want to do, anyway. The 2004-2006 system is completely incompatible, the 1996-2003 system is almost completely incompatible.
 

ZiggyTheHamster

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Location
Richmond, CA
TDI
2009 VW Jetta TDI
As "The Keeper of the Spreadsheet" (see here), I'd like to point out that there's really no way to quantify a failure reason. Yes, if someone wants to come out and tell us they put gas in, then that's useful. Anything else is speculation, and speculation doesn't plot well. And I don't know of anyone on my list that had a failure due to gasoline, so we're back to square one...

What I can tell you for certain is that failures are rare, though they aren't winning the lottery rare. There's also data to support that failures not attributable to gasoline always happen early, but the argument against that data would be that most people are still under warranty (me, Rod Bearing, and a handful of others excluded :p).

I can also tell you that dwiesel has taken apart some versions of the pump and has found that they're not very robustly built and that they use fuel as lubricant. Assuming that BOSCH engineers aren't stupid, the pumps can be properly lubricated using the average fuel available in North America. I don't think it would be a stretch to say that the pumps would not be properly lubricated with below average fuel. If you can guarantee fuel quality or compensation if there is a fuel problem, great. Otherwise, you may want to improve the quality of fuel you put in the car or the quality of filtration (which would improve fuel quality).

I have confidence that the NHTSA will have some sort of answer for us, however they suffer from the exact problem we do, which is the lack of data and the lack of public interest driving their investigation. Maybe it would help them see this is a problem that people are concerned about if they get calls about their investigation.

I've seen this discussion diverge from "what the NHTSA is doing" to "what BOSCH and VW should do" to something totally different... Yes, I'm sure we'll all agree that BOSCH and VW should extend the warranty on the pump to around its service lifetime. And we can probably reach a consensus on when/if you should replace the pump (it would be nice if VW listed a mileage, like they do for DPFs). But the problem is that BOSCH and VW are companies, and unless their public image changes, they aren't going to do anything because they're economically invested in not doing anything.. The DSG problems weren't addressed until after it got aired on national news programs.

Therefore, I think the best thing for anyone to do besides reporting their failure to the NHTSA is to call their local news stations and tell them their brand new car just broke down on them and how it was scary to be driving and have it just die and lose power steering and flash a buttload of lights at them and then have to get towed to a dealer that can't fix the problem in a timely manner. These kinds of public interest investigative reporting pieces are the kinds that get picked up by regional and national affiliates on slow news days. But if it happened a month ago, it's old news and not worth reporting on. And news stations love to hear when people get screwed because they can tease the story all night and it'll keep people watching the commercials and other news.
 

wreck111

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2011
Location
Kent Island
TDI
2014 Porsche 991S 2014 2011 A3 TDI
It's a shame but it's only a matter of time until somebody gets hurt in an accident. My BMW went into limp mode in DC rush hour traffic when I had a pump shut down. Never again. Real scary to say the least. Center lane on 495 @ 6PM and no power. Think about it. Car was sold right after that.
 

GTIDan

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2009
Location
So. California
TDI
2010 Candy White Jetta, DSG
As "The Keeper of the Spreadsheet" (see here), I'd like to point out that there's really no way to quantify a failure reason. Yes, if someone wants to come out and tell us they put gas in, then that's useful. Anything else is speculation, and speculation doesn't plot well. And I don't know of anyone on my list that had a failure due to gasoline, so we're back to square one...

What I can tell you for certain is that failures are rare, though they aren't winning the lottery rare. There's also data to support that failures not attributable to gasoline always happen early, but the argument against that data would be that most people are still under warranty (me, Rod Bearing, and a handful of others excluded :p).

I can also tell you that dwiesel has taken apart some versions of the pump and has found that they're not very robustly built and that they use fuel as lubricant. Assuming that BOSCH engineers aren't stupid, the pumps can be properly lubricated using the average fuel available in North America. I don't think it would be a stretch to say that the pumps would not be properly lubricated with below average fuel. If you can guarantee fuel quality or compensation if there is a fuel problem, great. Otherwise, you may want to improve the quality of fuel you put in the car or the quality of filtration (which would improve fuel quality).

I have confidence that the NHTSA will have some sort of answer for us, however they suffer from the exact problem we do, which is the lack of data and the lack of public interest driving their investigation. Maybe it would help them see this is a problem that people are concerned about if they get calls about their investigation.

I've seen this discussion diverge from "what the NHTSA is doing" to "what BOSCH and VW should do" to something totally different... Yes, I'm sure we'll all agree that BOSCH and VW should extend the warranty on the pump to around its service lifetime. And we can probably reach a consensus on when/if you should replace the pump (it would be nice if VW listed a mileage, like they do for DPFs). But the problem is that BOSCH and VW are companies, and unless their public image changes, they aren't going to do anything because they're economically invested in not doing anything.. The DSG problems weren't addressed until after it got aired on national news programs.

Therefore, I think the best thing for anyone to do besides reporting their failure to the NHTSA is to call their local news stations and tell them their brand new car just broke down on them and how it was scary to be driving and have it just die and lose power steering and flash a buttload of lights at them and then have to get towed to a dealer that can't fix the problem in a timely manner. These kinds of public interest investigative reporting pieces are the kinds that get picked up by regional and national affiliates on slow news days. But if it happened a month ago, it's old news and not worth reporting on. And news stations love to hear when people get screwed because they can tease the story all night and it'll keep people watching the commercials and other news.
Nice common sense response........couldn't agree more. Thanks :)
 

DPM

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 16, 2001
Location
Newtownards, N. Ireland
TDI
2019 Rav4 AWD Hybrid, Citroen C4 BlueHDI
It's a shame but it's only a matter of time until somebody gets hurt in an accident. My BMW went into limp mode in DC rush hour traffic when I had a pump shut down. Never again. Real scary to say the least. Center lane on 495 @ 6PM and no power. Think about it. Car was sold right after that.
how did we survive the seventies and eighties with the unreliable vehicles then?
 

Waldek Walrus

Veteran Member
Joined
May 15, 2006
Location
Central Pennsylvania
TDI
2006 Beetle TDI
how did we survive the seventies and eighties with the unreliable vehicles then?
This may be from the late eighties or early nineties, back when I lived in Nashville. A woman in a station wagon lost power on the main interstate loop around downtown. Before she could get it off the road a semi rolled full speed into her and killed her and her kids. Not everybody survived unreliable cars...

This IS a safety issue.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
This may be from the late eighties or early nineties, back when I lived in Nashville. A woman in a station wagon lost power on the main interstate loop around downtown. Before she could get it off the road a semi rolled full speed into her and killed her and her kids. Not everybody survived unreliable cars...

This IS a safety issue.
This is what I have been saying all along. Until there are injuries or death, NHTSA will not force VW to do anything and it will not make the national press.
 

EJS

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Location
Northern VA
TDI
2009 Jetta
how did we survive the seventies and eighties with the unreliable vehicles then?
The example given, when it's moving:

495 is four lanes wide w/ traffic going 60 - 70 mph with cars about 1/2 a car length apart. That would be four solid lanes of traffic. Take a parking lot & get it moving @ 70, that's 495 @ rush hour (or it is a parking lot).

I once saw a 15 car pile up the was the result of someone tapping the brakes & trying to change lanes. In a blink you had 15 cars going all over the place banging into each other...................

You want to have a power fail in the middle of that?
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Several posts were deleted from this thread due to political undertones. Contrary to the suspicions of some, we ARE watching ... just can't be here 100% of the time 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

Warning PM's have been sent out. Next time ... infraction = ban.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
There should always be "3 seconds" between you and the car in front of you... :rolleyes:
I've been on 495 quite a bit. If you leave a 3 second gap, you'll have at least three cars trying to get into it. Plus the guy behind you trying to check which radio station you're listening to. Not much different in most of the larger cities. Too many people that think they need to be at the next exit before you.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
You know, if the road conditions are that bad, don't drive there.

Or, drive a vehicle suitable for those road conditions. I'd suggest one of the various MRAPs. (The idea there being, not only to survive the inevitable collision, but to drive away from it, even if it's a major collision.)

Seriously, though, the Mk5 and Mk6 VWs do fairly well in rear-end crash performance, IIRC. Would I WANT to have a power fail in that situation? No. Do I feel fairly sure that I could deal with one? Yeah, considering I learned to drive in a highly unreliable 52 hp Jetta diesel - the trick is to preserve as much momentum as possible, and then force your way into gaps to get pulled over.
 

BadMonKey

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Location
Colorado
TDI
2013 Focus ST
how did we survive the seventies and eighties with the unreliable vehicles then?
When i took over my grandmothers 64 Impala it only had seat belts in the back installed by grandfather for us as kids. I had front belts installed the same week i got it. Its not the same environment as the 60-70's.

Most lived through it as the roads were less congested you didn't have 4-6 lane highways that take 5 miles to merge across in traffic and they weren't doing 70mph bumper to bumper.
 

jbright

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Location
Indianapolis
TDI
2009 Jetta DSG
Driving home tonight on the freeway was like flying a combat mission. I'm glad for every 236 foot/pound of torque at my disposal, plus the wonderful precision of my 2009 Jetta's steering and suspension. Another 600+ tank running on B5, and no HPFP disintegration. Life is good. But in the back of my mind. . . . . . .
 

TomB

Veteran Member
Joined
May 1, 2003
Location
Cle Elum, Washington/Las Vegas, Nevada
TDI
2015 Audi TDI Prestige Sport
This may be from the late eighties or early nineties, back when I lived in Nashville. A woman in a station wagon lost power on the main interstate loop around downtown. Before she could get it off the road a semi rolled full speed into her and killed her and her kids. Not everybody survived unreliable cars...

This IS a safety issue.
There are just too many safety issues that can cause death. Trying to force this to resolution through the NHTSA is no where near similar to the Pinto type of REAL safety issues.
 

Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
I think the biggest issue here is the "you blink you are dead" comment by wreck111. We all probably agree VW should fix any problems with the car. Here is hoping you don't blink and your VW never dies on you!
 

GTIDan

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2009
Location
So. California
TDI
2010 Candy White Jetta, DSG
Which with a VW you don't need HPFP issue, you can count on a laundry list of other items to let you down at some point.
Let the negativity roll on...................snoooooooooooooz. You sold your car now be happy and move on.
 
Last edited:

jimbobb2

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2010
Location
central IL
TDI
2010 Jetta
Which with a VW you don't need HPFP issue, you can count on a laundry list of other items to let you down at some point.
Why would someone that sold the TDI that they did not like still hang around the TDI forum? We enjoy our cars and have little respect for someone who comes in to whine.
 

chummer

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Location
Huntington Beach, CA
TDI
2010 A3 TDI Premium Plus/Titanium Package
Ok, another one to add on to the list. My A3 stalled while going on the on ramp of the 110 N in Los Angeles. The car didn't go pass 30mph and coil service light came on and started to flash, almost immediately it stalled. Lucky I have enough momentum to pull the car over and away from moving traffice.

Towed to the nearest Audi dealer (Audi of Downtown Los Angeles), they found bad fuel and metal shavings. They told me everything was warranty, bad diesel was to blame. They are going to replace the whole fuel system. I also report this to the NHTSA and they're investigating the station I filled up at(76) and the testing result from audi.
 

tico27464

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Location
Mid-Atlantic Traffic Jam, USA
TDI
2011 Golf TDI (DSG)
Ok, another one to add on to the list. My A3 stalled while going on the on ramp of the 110 N in Los Angeles. The car didn't go pass 30mph and coil service light came on and started to flash, almost immediately it stalled. Lucky I have enough momentum to pull the car over and away from moving traffice.

Towed to the nearest Audi dealer (Audi of Downtown Los Angeles), they found bad fuel and metal shavings. They told me everything was warranty, bad diesel was to blame. They are going to replace the whole fuel system. I also report this to the NHTSA and they're investigating the station I filled up at(76) and the testing result from audi.
Sorry to hear about that--glad Audi is standing up. I just can't imagine how NHTSA doesn't view this as a safety issue.

Out of curiosity, how long had you driven after filling up with the questionable fuel? Are they giving loaners when these things happen (not just to you, but an open question for anyone)?

Hope all goes well.
~T
 

DEZLBOY

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 19, 1999
Location
Arlington VA
TDI
2000 Golf GLS, Candy White
They told me ... bad diesel was to blame.
What's with the oil companies? In the past two years the quality of diesel has plummeted. We never had these troubles before. Bad diesel. Gosh, filling up at the pump is a crap shoot! ;)
 

thebigarniedog

Master of the Obvious
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Location
Fail Command (Central Ohio)
TDI
1998 Jetta tdi
What's with the oil companies? In the past two years the quality of diesel has plummeted. We never had these troubles before. Bad diesel. Gosh, filling up at the pump is a crap shoot! ;)

"We never had these troubles before" because the fuel injection pump on prior designs could handle bad mixes, dumb arses and other minor calamities. The current design, not so much .....
 
Top