www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You




Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > TDI News/Tech

TDI News/Tech This Forum is for the posting of TDI news related items.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old Yesterday, 11:45   #46
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Brampton, Ontario, Canada
Default

Yes, the smaller engines are at higher specific load more of the time and that means more operation in enrichment.
__________________
Brian P.
formerly ... 2006 Jetta TDI 5-sp, Spice Red, Unitronics stage 1, 0.681 5th gear.
and before that ... 1996 Passat TDI, Silk Blue
GoFaster is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 12:07   #47
whitedog
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
Yes, the smaller engines are at higher specific load more of the time and that means more operation in enrichment.
So it makes me wonder if these smaller engines can pass the emissions test, but actually put out higher pollutants in Real World Driving than a larger engine working less hard and not going into the enrichment operation. Magic 8 Ball says, "Signs point to Yes."
__________________
I don't wanna die but if I have to, I wanna die last. - Robert Mitchum
whitedog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 16:19   #48
bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast
ToofTek Inventor
 
bhtooefr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Newark, OH
TDI(s): None
Default

And that's why downsizing is being reversed, now, in Europe, where this has been taken to extremes.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lug_Nut View Post
The really cool ToofTek made "Emperor's Clothes" injector fork risers only worked until someone pointed out that there wasn't any thing there.
bhtooefr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 18:55   #49
whitedog
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhtooefr View Post
And that's why downsizing is being reversed, now, in Europe, where this has been taken to extremes.
And if I had read the article, I would have known that.
__________________
I don't wanna die but if I have to, I wanna die last. - Robert Mitchum
whitedog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 06:44   #50
tikal
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Southeast Texas
Fuel Economy: 37 MPG (~ 45% city)
Default Not so "clean gasoline vehicles" either

Here is an overall comparative graph with the so called "Clean Gasoline vehicles" and "Clean Gasoline-Hybrid Vheicles" vs the BMW X5 35d and other types of passenger vehicles:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post
You're welcome, tikal.
Thanks to a comment by bhtooefr, I searched for, and was able to find, a document that provided damage cost factors for both urban and rural emission scenarios, albeit it is calculated for Ireland ("Air Pollutant Marginal Damage Values Guidebook for Ireland 2015"). I'm still not able to run the APEEP model, which would still probably provide the best estimate of each vehicle technology/fuel pathway.
GREET provides total and urban emissions for both WTW and vehicle manufacturing. Thus, urban and rural damages can be calculated individually (rural emissions calculated by subtracting the urban emissions from the total emissions), and a "composite" damage derived from combining the urban and rural damages.
Using that methodology, here is a graphic of the results I get:

This shows EV in a better light, especially if it's a very clean grid like California (virtually no coal generation), since a higher percentage of emissions are generated in rural locations.
Edit: The "Diesel @X5" uses the average overall "real world" exhaust emission profile of the BMW X5 35d measured by WVU in the ICCT report.
tikal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 07:42   #51
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Brampton, Ontario, Canada
Default

Are those graphs extrapolated from emissions established during something akin to EPA test procedures, or are they established from "real driving emissions"?
__________________
Brian P.
formerly ... 2006 Jetta TDI 5-sp, Spice Red, Unitronics stage 1, 0.681 5th gear.
and before that ... 1996 Passat TDI, Silk Blue
GoFaster is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 08:06   #52
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Brampton, Ontario, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whitedog View Post
So it makes me wonder if these smaller engines can pass the emissions test, but actually put out higher pollutants in Real World Driving than a larger engine working less hard and not going into the enrichment operation. Magic 8 Ball says, "Signs point to Yes."
An empty and gently-driven Ford F150 3.5 Ecoboost will probably use less fuel than an empty and gently-driven Ford F150 5.0 V8.

Hitch up a big trailer, and everything changes.

There are some engineering changes that can be done to control piston and exhaust valve and catalyst temperature and we are starting to see them in newer engine designs. The trickery is being able to raise the compression ratio without encountering knock while still being able to use a premixed charge (to minimize soot formation).

Example 1 http://newatlas.com/toyota-tnga-engines/46830/ 13:1 compression ...

Example 2 http://motorchase.com/en/2016/09/fia...nes-in-brazil/ This engine has many interesting design features. 13.2:1 compression ... and without direct-injection and without 4 valves per cylinder, just a well-optimized twisted-hemi 2 valve design.

Example 3 http://www.allpar.com/mopar/V6/PUG-2015.php 11.3:1 compression ... this wasn't a ground-up redesign like the above two were.
__________________
Brian P.
formerly ... 2006 Jetta TDI 5-sp, Spice Red, Unitronics stage 1, 0.681 5th gear.
and before that ... 1996 Passat TDI, Silk Blue
GoFaster is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 09:24   #53
atc98002
Veteran Member
 
atc98002's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Auburn WA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
Are those graphs extrapolated from emissions established during something akin to EPA test procedures, or are they established from "real driving emissions"?
Can't say for every column, but wxman noted at the very bottom that the X5 diesel was real world testing from the same university that started the mess for VW.
__________________
2012 Audi Q5 2.0T: replacing the Passat
2014 Passat TDI SEL Premium: Sold back but miss it.

atc98002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 09:39   #54
wxman
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: East TN, USA
TDI(s): Other Diesel
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
Are those graphs extrapolated from emissions established during something akin to EPA test procedures, or are they established from "real driving emissions"?
The "vehicle operations" damages are based on emission factors established by EPA (see http://greet.es.anl.gov/files/vehicles-13 (Tables A2 & A3)).

The past few versions of GREET have started to deviate from the EPA emission factors somewhat, as can be seen in this screen capture of the GREET1_2016 output file:





Please note that the assumed NOx emission rate is still almost twice the T2B5 FTP "regulatory limit".
wxman is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 4 (0 members and 4 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Race520 7H nozzles.For sale Downsizing. ItAintRodKnock Private TDI Items for Sale/Wanted 3 June 9th, 2013 20:05
Downsizing sislianli TDI Power Enhancements 0 March 28th, 2011 05:10
Power Service is Downsizing its Bottles PDJetta Fuels & Lubricants 60 January 15th, 2010 19:34
Downsizing nozzles Gearhead51 TDI Power Enhancements 12 December 11th, 2009 15:39
Diesel Downsizing in Villa Park, IL. All of Us Mid-west USA 1 June 27th, 2007 07:01


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:04.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2014
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2015, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.14067 seconds with 12 queries
[Output: 97.75 Kb. compressed to 84.25 Kb. by saving 13.50 Kb. (13.81%)]