Dyno DATA (not pictures)

Fix_Until_Broke

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Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
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Does anyone have some dyno data they would be willing to share?

I mean actual data points, similar to a VagLog where there's time, RPM, Torque, HP data points or whatever.

I could go pick points off the numerous graphs posted, however, I'm lazy :eek:.

You can just post it up here or I can PM you an e-mail address if you've got it in an excel file or something similar.

Thanks in advance...There will be someting in return for it, but I won't let the cat out of the bag quite yet :cool:
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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Ok - so I got impatient and took some rough data from the NEDD8 thread - Delvi's 185HP Dyno to be exact.

A friend of mine who does a lot of motorcycle track days put together a spreadsheet to calculate drive force for his motorcycle. Apparently they do frequent gear changes depending on the track, wind, bowl movements, etc and he wanted to see how that would effect acceleration and put a visual reference to how much of a change is made and to help decide shift points, etc.

You input dyno data, gear ratios, tire diameter and it goes through some relatively basic multiplication and division and creates this nice plot of drive force vs road speed and gear. No dynamics are accounted for here (engine acceleration rate, etc).



I just stuck in stock EGR 5 speed transmission ratios (plus a ~0.62 6th) in for a demonstration.

The end of each gear is 4700 RPM so:

1st gear could be a bit taller to both kill some drive force and end up at ~the torque peak of 2nd gear instead of behind it
2nd gear looks pretty good if you wind it out
3rd gear you're probably best off shifting at ~70 MPH (~4400 RPM)
4th gear you're probably best shifting at ~90 MPH (~4100 RPM)
5th gear you're probably best shifting at ~115 (~4000 RPM)
4-5-6 really don't matter that much but for maximum acceleration you want to stay in the gear that gives you the highest drive force.

Somewhere on the Y axis is a traction limit as well

Visually shows the importance of a wide powerband vs peak power numbers.

Nothing new under the sun, but an interesting way to look at the data. I'll see if I can put the 3-4 Fifth gear swap options in to compare them and maybe the 2-3 final drives.

Just something to play with now - let me know if there's something you want to see or other thoughts/comments.
 

oldpoopie

Vendor
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Portland Oregon
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2001 golf gl, 2006 jetta, 1981 ALH swapped rabbit pickup, 1998 beetle
Didnt someone a while back make a vag-com ap that calculated the best shift points?
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
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Canada
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TDI
This is a great illustration to further hammer a nail on the coffin of the ongoing HP/torque debate. Most people say that you drive torque but the numbers state differently. Very clear examples occur at speeds of about 40, 60 and 80 MPH. At these speeds, you would get quicker acceleration (higher drive force) by staying at a lower gear (higher engine RPM, but lower torque and higher power) rather than driving near the torque peak in the next higher gear.

The hyperbola that is traced on the right boundary of the set of plotted curves corresponds to the maximum power. This boundary can only be pushed upwards to the right in order to further improve acceleration by increasing the maximum power, but having lots of torque over a wide RPM band is nonetheless advantageous as it fills in dead spots and also means requiring less gear shifting to get good performance.
 

Rub87

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Belgium
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Ibiza '99 90HP
yep.. keeping engine near max hp is always the fastest when accelerating, as the hp at the wheel (thus the hp at the engine minus drivetrain losses) is directly proportional to the force the tyres can put down on the road at a constant speed, that why it's useful to have max hp over a wide powerband, like my engine for example, 240hp or more from 3200 till 5500rpm and not a flat torque curve and a rising hp curve (like a NA usually has) =)
 

shizzler

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Ann Arbor MI
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05 BEW Wagon
Fix_Until_Broke said:
Apparently they do frequent gear changes depending on the track, wind, bowEl movements, etc
Have to ask, did you mean to have an "e" in the sentence above, or does that have something to do with motorcycle carburetor fuel bowls or something like that..... haha.

Nice work. I agree Meister, it gets very old to hear people talk about how their torque wins races. Then why do we lose at the drags to Hondas....
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
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Sep 5, 2004
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Indiana
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2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
Shiz, yup. One only has to visualize what's happening inside the engine to see HP is what moves the car. The application of torque is what we're talking about, and that's HP. You can apply less torque more often and get more done vs. applying more torque less often. One can apply big torque less often and still make big HP.

Or, picture a box on a table. How hard you push (torque) the box and how often you push it (RPM) moves it across the table (HP). Whether you push it hard a few times slowly, or softly many times quickly, it still moves.

Another way: Applying 200 ft-lb at 2000 RPM is a lot less work than applying 200 ft-lb at 4000 RPM or 6000 RPM. It's just intuitive.

/EDIT. It comes down to HP:weight ratio and Cd. HP can be average HP across the revs used or instantaneous HP for a given RPM.
 
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Fix_Until_Broke

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Thanks for the kind words everyone - credit really goes to my friend Todd for creating the spreadsheet - I just stuffed it full of TDI data instead of GSXR data.

I put together a couple more plots - one of Scott DeWitt's proposed 6 speed 02J and another of the various 5th gears that are available.

[/IMG]

[/IMG]

All of these are with Delvi's dyno data. I'd like to see how the various 5th gears would compare to a strong ALH dyno which has more torque at lower RPM's

So with that - back to my original question - Does anyone have some dyno DATA that they'd be willing to share with me?
 

shizzler

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Ann Arbor MI
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If you had a high res dyno plot it wouldn't be too hard to re-create a curve approximating the power and torque. 12-15 points should do it I would think. Maybe I'll give it a try with someones dyno with close to my same mods.
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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shizzler said:
If you had a high res dyno plot it wouldn't be too hard to re-create a curve approximating the power and torque. 12-15 points should do it I would think. Maybe I'll give it a try with someones dyno with close to my same mods.
That's what I did with Delvi's (his was the highest resolution and easiest to read :D)

The curves look so good due to Excel's "smoothing" but there's only 10 data points.

Like I said in the original post - I'm lazy.

My guess is that most people get a picture and don't get the actual data.

Would the place that hosted NEDD8 have the data stored somewhere maybe?
 

Rub87

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Belgium
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Ibiza '99 90HP
If you want I can convert some plots of me into numerical.. do you need both hp and torque? I guess when you have rpm and one of both you can easily find the other..?
 

shizzler

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Ann Arbor MI
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Guess I never thought about it, but man, who knew it was so easy to calculate this. Basically just Torque * Gear Ratio (final) = wheel torque, and then Drive Force = Wheel Torque / wheel radius.

Just for fun I plotted the curves for a completely stock ALH TDI, then compared it to a decently well modified ALH (stock turbo). Peter, I shamelessly stole your dyno data by picking points from your dyno plot here:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=2082831&postcount=6

Basically this is the most power I ever see my own ALH making. I also swapped 5th gear to the 0.658 ratio for the "modded" calculations.

The power curves are compared in the inset plot. Then finally I added a curve for the aerodynamic and rolling resistance drag force (handy calculator can be found here: http://ecomodder.com/forum/tool-aero-rolling-resistance.php). Where this curve intersects your 5th gear drive force is the vehicle's theoretical top speed. I think I was maybe a little conservative and overestimated aero + rolling drag.



Neat idea FUB. You could also go a step further and integrate the difference between drive force and aero+rolling drag to get acceleration times...
 

Rub87

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Belgium
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Ibiza '99 90HP
an add the revs on the graph were the curve from the gear and previous gear interset you you know optimal shift rpm per gear =)
 

shizzler

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Rub87 said:
an add the revs on the graph were the curve from the gear and previous gear interset you you know optimal shift rpm per gear =)
Yep. It's interesting to compare the points between my two data sets. Most might assume that with the tuned engine the optimal shift points would shift to higher rpms. But they show the same shift rpm (and vehicle speed) for the 1-2 and 2-3 shift, and then actually earlier for the 3-4 and 4-5 shifts. In fact the 4-5 shift (even with the 0.658 5th gear!) for maintaining max drive force comes ~6-8 mph sooner. I've been driving my car wrong, lol. Maybe it just feels faster to have the engine screaming at 4500+ rpm.
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
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03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
Here's a couple more

Rub87's setup
[/IMG]

moonranch's stock ALH with a wierd bump in the dyno plot
[/IMG]

moonranch has a few other vehicles with dyno data, but I'm waiting on transmission gear ratios before I process the data.

Anyone have a stout ALH dyno - solid 180 HP 300+ ft-lbf? I'd like to compare a torquey ALH vs Delvi's PD vs Rub's 2260.

Anyone know where the traction limit is approximately? I'm guessing that it's in the 1500 lbf range depending on tires.
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
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03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
Here's some more data from a few different vehicles courtsey of moonranch (Thanks!)

MKII GTI
Interesting thing about this one was that the torque curve was dead flat over the whole RPM range and HP steadily increased.
[/IMG]
[/IMG]

Mini Cooper
[/IMG]

Model A
[/IMG]
 

Fix_Until_Broke

Top Post Dawg
Joined
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Location
Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
TDI
03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
Bumping this back up again - I'm swapping the EGR 5 speed with 0.681 5th gear and 205/70/15 tires out for a DRW 6 speed.

So, do I keep the taller tires or go back to the stock diameter?






If I put the OEM tire size back on - 1-4 are mostly identical with a nice split between 4 and 6 and 6th just a touch taller than the 0.681 5th on taller tires.


 

chapelhill

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Aug 19, 2005
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Scotland
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03 Ibiza pd13- 2260vk Turbo etc.., Merc E280cdi
I have tried this to convert dyno plot to data as it is freeware and it works ok.
http://digitizer.sourceforge.net/

Probably not as good as the other one but does not require install and will not stop working after 21 days.
I did have to enhance my dyno plot first by increasing contrast to make it more visible, but seems to do a good job.
 
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