Manual transmission being phased out, not efficient & slower

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/22/manual-labor-3-pedal-ferrari-california-slower-less-efficient/

http://www.autoblog.com/make/ferrari

Ferrari – in as vivid a sign of the times as when Kodak stopped selling film cameras – is phasing out the use of manual transmissions. That is, not before one last hurrah, though having a manual-equipped Ferrari comes with some drawbacks these days.

The California is slated to be the last Ferrari available with a traditional manual transmission. It's been over a year since the car's market introduction, during which time only the seven-speed dual clutch transmission has been available. But purists can now order the California with a real six-speed manual, complete with clutch pedal, double-cone synchros with multiple pawl asymmetric geometry and an oil bath fork and lever system.

Click to expand...

Oberkanone said:

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/22/manual-labor-3-pedal-ferrari-california-slower-less-efficient/

Click to expand...

If this is accurate, it's a good move for Ferrari. You can't have a manual tranny for a car so advanced. The cars electronics and active safety features move faster than any reaction time from a 50+ Sr Exec or CEO operating a gate-shift Ferrari gearbox. Most ultra-premium cars will phase out manual transmissions within a few years.

Phasing out mechanically engaging gears, yes, but I am sure they will come with some steering shifter levers. So it will not be mechanically manual, but it will still be manually invoked by the driver.

For, us the mortal consumers, I hope old good manual mechanical tranny will never be phased out. I don't care how much faster the computer can shift, I will always hate the way it shifts, and also the high cost of fixing them if something goes wrong after warranty expires ...

mxs said:

Phasing out mechanically engaging gears, yes, but I am sure they will come with some steering shifter levers. So it will not be mechanically manual, but it will still be manually invoked by the driver.

For, us the mortal consumers, I hope old good manual mechanical tranny will never be phased out. I don't care how much faster the computer can shift, I will always hate the way it shifts, and also the high cost of fixing them if something goes wrong after warranty expires ...

Click to expand...

It won't be. Because most people don't keep something long enough till it breaks, and when it does they replace it. This is the cycle of life, break it and replace it. Not break it and fix it.

Trust me, I'm stocking up on cars to last me the rest of my allowed life that have 3 pedals.

It was hard to read the op's "Ferrari" quote with a straight face. No matter with or without manual/auto transmission, if one have to ask how much maintenance is on a Ferrari,... one normally can NOT afford it !

So I asked my friend who owns a Ferrari , how much maintenance is... we both started busting up. He just shakes his head and said (if I remember correctly ) the 1,500 miles oil change was a bargain @ $900.

I remember paying $600 for the 100,000 miles TB/WP change interval......

mxs said:

For, us the mortal consumers, I hope old good manual mechanical tranny will never be phased out. I don't care how much faster the computer can shift, I will always hate the way it shifts, and also the high cost of fixing them if something goes wrong after warranty expires ...

Click to expand...

Then better do like kcfoxie & stock up. The manual is going the way of the dodo bird. Even motorcycles are moving away from manually stirred gearboxes. Just like Joe Lunchmeat on the assembly line - the computer is better, faster, & more accurate than he can ever hope to be. Airbags, ABS, ESP - they all add complexity & now they're mainstream.........it will go the same way.

I don't see this taking affect worldwide, mostly because other countries are a little more active and enjoy the activity... also have lower crashes to negate the need for these always on safety systems.

But if you're staying in the USA, yeah, i'd stock up.

Don't see them going away... In Europe still a pretty substantial majority of new cars has a MT, and the more advanced automatics are, the more expensive they get. And more efficient, maybe in some testing cycles, but in the real world, no way.

EJS said:

Then better do like kcfoxie & stock up. The manual is going the way of the dodo bird. Even motorcycles are moving away from manually stirred gearboxes. Just like Joe Lunchmeat on the assembly line - the computer is better, faster, & more accurate than he can ever hope to be. Airbags, ABS, ESP - they all add complexity & now they're mainstream.........it will go the same way.

Click to expand...

Hrmmm.... I find it hard to believe that a sequential transmission needs a lot of improvement. Do you have examples of production motorcycles that will be produced with computer-controlled gearboxes, or are you just speculating? They have made "fast shift" kits for motorcycles for years now, and they have always been completely unnecessary except for drag racers, IMO. All I can think is that getting rid of the clutch on a race bike would sap out all the fun. But... you can guess how I feel about this by looking at my screen-name.

Mike

The only bike that has DSG kind of a tranny is the new Honda VFR1200, see here

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/2010-vfr1200-dual-clutch-transmission-details/

but that's the only bike and pretty expensive at that, and I am sure will cost an arm and a leg to fix if something goes wrong. No long term power train warranties on motorcycles makes it a no go anytime soon .... I hope should I add.

EJS said:

Then better do like kcfoxie & stock up.

Click to expand...

I did by getting Golf 2010. 10 years from now, the tranny will be the least of a change we will see. Rubber band CVT with a battery pack underneath ... LOL

kcfoxie said:

I don't see this taking affect worldwide, mostly because other countries are a little more active and enjoy the activity... also have lower crashes to negate the need for these always on safety systems.

Click to expand...

Or they drive less and in less congestion. More active? Don't know about all that.........

Obesity rate = Men Women U.S. 19.9% 24.9% Germany 18.2% 21.3%

Seems pretty similar And given that even supercars are coming with always on safety features (ESP)............same as above, the computer can do work a human can't. A vehicle works better with a computer keeping the idjit behind the wheel in check.

German_1er_diesel said:

And more efficient, maybe in some testing cycles, but in the real world, no way.

Click to expand...

Just like Joe Lunchmeat above you can believe what you want but a computer can be programmed to deliver optimal fuel economy for any given input............a feat you can never hope to match. Much like Kasparov thought.........right up until he got his *ss kicked.

mxs said:

I did by getting Golf 2010. 10 years from now, the tranny will be the least of a change we will see. Rubber band CVT with a battery pack underneath ... LOL

Click to expand...

That's what I think, DSG seems like an interim solution at best.........likely some sort of bizarre clutchless CVT - where the engine is almost always running at peak fuel efficiency.

Speaking of which wasn't it Nissan who made the CVT "fake" shifts because the moron consumer couldn't deal with a transmission that didn't "shift"?

Sadly the optimal solution is to remove the weak point in the system - the driver, that would be the safest solution. On the upside then the jaw jackers wouldn't interfere with anyone

Note - I'm not really "fer 'em" or "agin 'em"............I can just see where it might all lead. The Ferrari would seem to be an indicator as I have yet to see technology "trickle up".

wow, check out the ratings the comments got at the bottom of the article. Looks like a whole lot of people don't care that the manual is slower and "less efficient" (obviously due to the 7th gear overdrive in the Ferrari). I couldn't agree more. Especially when going around a track, an 'H' shaped gearbox has advantages... 5th to 3rd, 4th to 2nd, any gear skipping can be more accurately controlled. My biggest complaint with DSG is the delay. It might be fine when you're driving in traffic and using it as an automatic, but once you start telling the transmission to pick a gear, hold on and wait a minute. This can be really upsetting mid-turn when the auto-clutch engages a moment too late and forces the driver to recover. H-gearboxes and clutches are predictable and allow "feathering" of power. I would bet that if first gear went to 60mph, the manual transmission would be close if not faster than the auto.

kcfoxie said:

I don't see this taking affect worldwide, mostly because other countries are a little more active and enjoy the activity... also have lower crashes to negate the need for these always on safety systems.

Click to expand...

Are you kidding? Have you seen the crash numbers in India and China? Those are two countries that have driving populations mostly made up for first-generation car owners. This results in huge fatality rates that are likely only known to God herself, let alone official figures from any traffic ministry.

That, and rapid urban car adoption in these countries means that new owners don't want to be bothered shifting gears by themselves. In constant traffic jams, it's a pain in the butt to drive a manual transmission.

hey MrMopar, I live in Normal, IL! Hope to see you around sometime! (I'm in Florida for another week or so)

I'm at Upper Limits a lot... my White Golf TDI is usually parked on Hovey Ave.

The Yamaha FJR1300AE (supersport touring) motorcycle comes with a pretty slick computer activated clutch. One local guy I know has one - helps that he can just shift with his left thumb. Until this motorcycle came along, riding was very difficult (on account of his prosthetic left leg).

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products/modelhome/501/0/home.aspx

COOL!! I never thought of the usefulness of a computer activated clutch for people missing left legs! What a great solution... though I hope to never need it....

German_1er_diesel said:

Don't see them going away... In Europe still a pretty substantial majority of new cars has a MT, and the more advanced automatics are, the more expensive they get. And more efficient, maybe in some testing cycles, but in the real world, no way.

Click to expand...

In Europe, at least in Germany, it is fewer and fewer manual transmissions and more automatics (and more cars with air conditioning and other "luxuries" one didn't see 15 years ago).

MarcusW said:

In Europe, at least in Germany, it is fewer and fewer manual transmissions and more automatics (and more cars with air conditioning and other "luxuries" one didn't see 15 years ago).

Click to expand...

Yes, this is especially true because in the past automatic transmissions were a rarity in Europe... Europeans are proud of their ability to drive faster, more efficient vehicles that needed less maintenance... I have met many French and German men and women and they are almost all really good at driving fast, and they only drive sticks! My point is that when nearly everybody drives a manual, a change is just waiting to happen.

I'm quite disturbed by the lack of manual transmissions available these days. Just browsing through VWs offerings is quite disappointing. You can't even get a manual transmission in the 4 door Golf gasser. The Tiguan only has a manual trans available in the fwd stripped down base version. No manual transmission at all for the Passat. Manual transmission car drivers are a dying breed. At least manual transmission motorcycles are still the norm. In fact it seems than most auto/semi auto motorcyles have been flops. Whenever I see an FJR1300AE at the Yamaha dealership the price is slashed by thousands of dollars to get it out the door.

manual_tranny said:

Hrmmm.... I find it hard to believe that a sequential transmission needs a lot of improvement. Do you have examples of production motorcycles that will be produced with computer-controlled gearboxes, or are you just speculating?

Click to expand...

Well when I made the post I was thinking "non-manual", encompassing all forms of transmissions............i.e. CVT, of which there are a few on the market.

manual_tranny said:

........ I couldn't agree more. Especially when going around a track, an 'H' shaped gearbox has advantages... 5th to 3rd, 4th to 2nd, any gear skipping can be more accurately controlled.

Click to expand...

Hmmmm, if it's better on the track then how does one explain F1? WRC? Etc?

manual_tranny said:

... I have met many French and German men and women and they are almost all really good at driving fast, and they only drive sticks!

Click to expand...

Lot's of Americans feel the same way, has no bearing how how bad they suck behind the wheel.

Honda is using a DSG style automatic on their mid size ATV's right now as well. It's more money by over a grand too.

EJS said:

Well when I made the post I was thinking "non-manual", encompassing all forms of transmissions............i.e. CVT, of which there are a few on the market.

Click to expand...

I did a quick search, and was stunned to see how many CVT bikes are out there now. I mis-interpreted and thought you were talking DSG bikes... of which I was also surprised to hear.

EJS said:

Hmmmm, if it's better on the track then how does one explain F1? WRC? Etc?

Click to expand...

I was really just making a "seat of the pants" comparison between the only DSG transmission I've ever used (2006 Jetta TDI) and all the manual transmissions I've used. I should have specified that "in a production street car" I believe I would be faster with a manual over a DSG. When it comes to F1 I believe you're absolutely right, the instants saved can add up... when it comes to WRC, I don't think the DSG is an "instant winner". (pun intended) Sequential transmissions are still pretty competitive with DSG too.

http://jalopnik.com/5497042/how-a-500-craigslist-car-beat-400k-rally-racers

EJS said:

Lot's of Americans feel the same way, has no bearing how how bad they suck behind the wheel.

Click to expand...

So true... so true...

Aren't most F1 gearboxes an automated/paddle shifted sequential gearbox? Sequential gearboxes are much faster than an H-gate, but you'll notice that they aren't the dominant manual out there for vehicles...

TurbinePower said:

Aren't most F1 gearboxes an automated/paddle shifted sequential gearbox? Sequential gearboxes are much faster than an H-gate, but you'll notice that they aren't the dominant manual out there for vehicles...

Click to expand...

Yes they are, but they also cost probably 100K a piece too. Also, a tenth of a second can mean a difference between 1st place and a looser. So the standard manual would be hardly a wise choice ...

I think the up shifts are driver controlled, while down shifts computer controlled (unless they changed something in the rules; this sport is never the same two years in a row ... madness, but they keep saying they are trying to control and lower cost ...)

I have read this in passing, 20% of the passenger vehicle fleet (254.2 M vehicles) are manuals. This would rough out to 50.88 M vehicles
( manual transmissions). IF the definition of majority is 51 %, THEN a large majority of the fleet are "automatics".

The discussion of automatic vs manual REALLY hides the GLARING flaws, problems, issues with automatics: while in effect skillfully evading stuff like the true environmental costs of automatics vs manuals.

I do not think even on DSG equipped cars, any one would disagree that in the US market, currently DSG's are in an EXTREME minority position.

A manual gearbox will always be more efficient than an automatic gearbox, as the auto has a pump that requires power. However where automatics shine is their ability to be made lighter due to their planetary gear setups (they don't produce as much thrust forces as a gear pair in a manual gearbox), and shift faster and smother than purely manual gearbox. However I think the main reason that automatics are winning the war is that the manufacturer of the vehicle can take put a computer between the operator and the hardware giving the electronics more control over the vehicle, and and thus reducing liability and warranty claims due to people being people.

Scott_DeWitt said:

A manual gearbox will always be more efficient than an automatic gearbox, as the auto has a pump that requires power. However where automatics shine is their ability to be made lighter due to their planetary gear setups (they don't produce as much thrust forces as a gear pair in a manual gearbox), and shift faster and smother than purely manual gearbox. However I think the main reason that automatics are winning the war is that the manufacturer of the vehicle can take put a computer between the operator and the hardware giving the electronics more control over the vehicle, and and thus reducing liability and warranty claims due to people being people.

Click to expand...

Manuals will not always be more efficient. That is changing now, the fact that a computer is making the decision when to shift is proving that. It can shift at the perfect time for economy, something a human is not always capable of. Having the ability to have several different modes programmed in as well.

Everyone on here is sounding very old school. You sound like the old carb guys trying to justify how carbs are better than fuel injection. LOL

milehighassassin said:

Manuals will not always be more efficient. That is changing now, the fact that a computer is making the decision when to shift is proving that. It can shift at the perfect time for economy, something a human is not always capable of. Having the ability to have several different modes programmed in as well.

Everyone on here is sounding very old school. You sound like the old carb guys trying to justify how carbs are better than fuel injection. LOL

Click to expand...

Umm... current DSG transmissions keep engine rpms higher than manuals do to warm up in cold weather... so current DSG transmissions are already proven to rob efficiency in the cold. As far as "efficiency" goes, the lightest direct drive available will win, and gear ratios will play their parts. I believe this conversation started about a Ferrari, no? Well the DSG Ferrari has 7 gears, 1 gear more than the manual. The final gear is lower, hence better mileage at speed than the H-shift box because the H-shifter has "only" 6 gears. I'm not an "old carb guy", I'm just a young guy that did well in mechanical physics. Don't forget to think how efficient it is to have replacement parts shipped all over the world for every transmission needing rebuilt at 100K... vs. a good manual transmission often out-lasting the engine components. (I've had two German cars that demonstrated this...)

And if there is no clutch pedal... then clutch control/feathering is lost... so... there will be a wash of advantages and disadvantages between the two.

Scott_DeWitt said:

A manual gearbox will always be more efficient than an automatic gearbox, as the auto has a pump that requires power. However where automatics shine is their ability to be made lighter due to their planetary gear setups (they don't produce as much thrust forces as a gear pair in a manual gearbox), and shift faster and smother than purely manual gearbox. However I think the main reason that automatics are winning the war is that the manufacturer of the vehicle can take put a computer between the operator and the hardware giving the electronics more control over the vehicle, and and thus reducing liability and warranty claims due to people being people.

Click to expand...

Are they really lighter, though? Seems like curb weights for manual and automatic versions of the same car through the ages have always varied by 30-50#, in favor of the manual trans car. And the current DSG tech looks heavy.

They have to carry more fluid, a fluid cooler, the pump assembly (as you said), governors, valves, more clutches/clutch packs...

If one wished to increase the cost of a manual gearbox by a little, one could have a manual transmission with almost no thrust forces inside it. Herringbone gears have been around for over a century now, and they very greatly reduce both noise and thrust forces over standard helical gears for a very slight efficiency penalty (<1% efficiency loss, according to the handbook resources I'm using).