PD-TDI (2004+) Oil Info & Analyses (Post #1 = FAQ)

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

I sent in a sample of Elf Evolution CRV 0W-30 (506.01) today after about 8200 miles (per the odometer) in my engine. I will report the lab's results. 44217 miles on the clock when put in on 8/22/05.

Here is my first OA on my 2006 Jetta TDI. OA was done at 4,121 miles due to a series of trips that would have put me over the 5k mark before I had a chance to change the oil & filter.

This was stock oil from the factory (Castrol 505.01?)



A higher res image can be seen here

Thanks AndyH for hooking me up with the kit!

Fuel was mostly Hess/Wilco & BP Amoco Premier 45 Cetane Diesel with about 5oz of PS Diesel Klean each tank.

I've been breaking the car in according to drivebiwire's procedures. Could this account for the high Aluminum readings???

Re: PD-TDI (2004+) Oil Info & Analyses (Post #1 =

Just curious now, but has anybody here used Lubro-Moly 505.01?
A local shop can get it for me, and I've seen it used in another shop who works exclusively on european imports (Porsche's in particular, I've had mine there a couple times), and they use it and Mobil 1 on all of the vehicles that come in, so I presume it's at least not the worst stuff out there. I am curious though, whether anybody knows anything about it, and/or has used it before?

Re: PD-TDI (2004+) Oil Info & Analyses (Post #1 =

Zero 10 a former freind wss an Amsoil dealer and he he would tell me that Amsoil was great and the Lubromoly was even as good as Amsoil. I am using Castrol 505.01 and my next oil will be either the Lubro-Moly or the Pentosyth.

Re: PD-TDI (2004+) Oil Info & Analyses (Post #1 =

Really! I suspected it would be half-decent, but I had never heard of it until I visited a friend's Porsche shop, and he really didn't know too much about it, but he swore by it. At a visit to Partsource, that is the only 505.01 oil they carry, and they have to order it from WorldPac.
I think that's what I'll be using. I wonder if I should do UOA on it?..

Don't worry about those high numbers. My first analysis on a 2005 Passat PD (5,000 miles) showed BIG metal numbers. I already have a 10,000 mile analysis and all the wear numbers dropped 66-75%.

here's the highest mileage PD UOA i've seen (92k+), but unfortunately, it's not good. the OCI was 12180 miles, the soot climbed to 1.88%, and Iron (Fe) is through the roof at 230ppm (19ppm / 1000miles). thermographer drives a ton (obviously), almost all highway.

i'd recommend a short 5k OCI and another UOA to see if these numbers come down out of the stratosphere. if not, something could be significantly wrong. it is odd that the other wear metals are relatively very low - i mean the Al and Cu are higher than ideal, but often when Fe is off the charts, something else is significantly elevated as well.

hopefully AndyH, TwoSlick or DB will see this and chime in...

ewwwwww, and I was hoping to sleep well tonight.

Just a summary, oil changes were all using castrol 505.01, and I can verify part numbers.
Oil was changed at 5K, 10K, 20K and so on. The oil sample was over 12K but its not a habit. I was caught in Seattle and all the dealer's were booked up.
I'm not sure if its important, but I didn't use Andy's pump to get the sample. Drained from the bottom, let the oil run about 2-3 seconds before capture.
Thanks for any imput.

ewwwwww, and I was hoping to sleep well tonight.... and the million $ ?, does the car make it to 400K..

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i 100% guarantee that the amount of sleep you get will not affect your PD's engine longevity, so sleep well and don't worry.

i should have first asked "how the sample was taken?", as i realize this is the first UOA you've done.

the great news is that if there is an issue that something proactive can be done about, this UOA is the red flag. without it, you may not have known anything was up until it was too late...

you may even consider doing a very short OCI this time around, say 2000 to 3000 miles, just to remove "inherited" wear metals from the oil. inherited metals are from the oil that remains in your PD during an oil change. a very significant amount of oil cannot be drained, and since in your case the old oil had a super-high Fe level, immediately after the oil was changed your new oil may already have a higher than normal Fe level.

for example, if you are able to change 4.5 liters, but roughly 1 liter of 230ppm Fe oil remains in the engine, then 230ppm / 5.5liters = 42ppm Fe immediately after your oil change. if you run this oil for a short OCI, and then change it, you will probably get your starting Fe level down near normal. keep in mind that this is just an example of inherited contaminants - i do not know how much old oil actually remains in a PD during the various drain or extraction methods.

good luck and keep us posted!

zero10 - I'm running Liqui-Moly Diesel Hi-Tech (505.01) in my PD. I've had a VOA done, and just pulled my first UOA last weekend (5,000k miles). I should have the analysis in hand next week. I've been running the Liqui Moly for some time, but have only started UOA since the most recent change.



They also have a 506.01 product that I'm hoping I can get my hands on at the next OCI.

OK, here goes my first UOC from Oil Analyzers: Castrol 505.01 from dealer

2004 Jetta Wagon, 41706 odometer, 10603 on sample, Greasecar dual-tank veggie conversion. This sample was run with roughly 64% biodiesel, 1% D2, and 35% vegetable oil. I drive 3K miles a month, 70% highway, 80 mile round-trip commute. Approx 15K miles since Greasecar conversion.

Fe 78, Chrom 2, Lead 18, Copper 25, Tin 0, Al 10, Ni 0, Silver 0, Si 8, Boron 0, Na 23, Mg 26, Ca 3181, Ba 0, phos 1155, Zn 1508, moly 1, Titan 0, Van 0, Potass 0

Fuel <1, Vis @ 40 n/a, vis @100 13.53, water 0, soot solids 1.1, glycol neg
TBN 4.99, oxid n/a, nitr n/a, F-soot 1.14, change yes.

I'm going to have to plead ignorance on all this oil analysis stuff. I'm interested though in extending my OCI past the 10k level. I've been running mostly B20 this summer, hope to run B20 this winter, and do mostly highway driving. I've been using Motul 505.01 also. 18k OCI would be nice--twice a year, that is for me.

I'm at 12k on this OC at the moment; I had to add 1/2L at 11k and then I did 250 pulling an unloaded trailer; followed by 250 miles pulling probably 400 pounds or so. I went to change the oil and found I only had 2L for some reason; hence the long OCI.

I'm going to see about getting the oil analysis kit from here, but w/o the pump, as I think I only really want to do 2 OA's--this one since it's already over, and perhaps one from the dead of winter (lots of cold starts and probably higher sulphur fuel to boot).

Can I just use the oil that comes off the filter when I pull it out, letting it dribble into whatever container that the OA uses? I presume that once I get the results, you all can tell me what they mean.

Re: PD-TDI (2004+) Oil Info & Analyses (Post #1 =

You can catch a sample from the drain plug. The instructions should be with the kit. You pull the plug, let a bit run out, then catch your sample. But I suppose you're using a suction pump to change the oil and won't be pulling the plug?

Re: PD-TDI (2004+) Oil Info & Analyses (Post #1 =

Yep. Only time I've been under the car was to install the hitch. I figure, the oil filter has to come out too, so I can grab it from there (and not get it from the who-knows-what is in my Pela right now).

Re: PD-TDI (2004+) Oil Info & Analyses (Post #1 =

Driver: vikingrob
Sample date: 10/26/05
Odometer: 52837 mi
Miles on oil: 8620
Oil: Elf Evolution 0W-30 506.01
Vehicle: 2004 NB GLS TDI, 6a
Lab: Oil Analyzers, Inc.

Fe: 46
Cr: 1
Pb: 4
Cu: 4
Sn: 0
Al: 6
Ni: 0
Ag: 0
Si: 4
B: 82
Na: 10
Mg: 214
Ca: 2282
Ba: 0
P: 1045
Zn: 1268
Mo: 0
Ti: 0
V: 0
K: 0
Fuel: <1
Vis @ 40C, cSt: 0
Vis @ 100C, cSt: 1.07
H2O: 0
Soot/solids (% wt): 0.8
Glycol: NEG
TBN: 6.19
Oxid: N/A
Nitr: N/A
F-Soot: 0.80
Change: NO
Recommendation: No corrective action required. Oil is suitable for continued use. Resample at next regular interval.

Re: PD-TDI (2004+) Oil Info & Analyses (Post #1 =

fitzski, do you have a part number for their 506.01 compliant oil? I would like to run that in my TDI if I can get it, but the local store can only find a listing for their 505.01 oil.
Perhaps I'll do both VOA and UOA on mine, and we'll compare results
Mine will be on the first oil change, car is only at 4050km right now.

This is what I have; not sure if it will help the guy at the counter, though. Be prepared to sign over your children to get it... I wouldn't be surprised to see ~$20 per litre.

SYNTHOIL LONGTIME PLUS 0 W-30

State-of-the-art long-life energy-conserving engine oil. Promotes optimum lubrication. For the fastest oil delivery from the first turn of the engine. Protects the engine against wear and deposits. Tested on catalytic converters and turbochargers.

Operational area: Year-round oil for petrol and Diesel engines. Allows extended intervals between maintenance periods.

Car manufacturer´s approval: ACEA A1/A5/B1/B5 VW 503.00, 506.00, 506.01

Container Pallet Unit Packaging Unit Part-No.
--------------------------------------------------
1 ltr, 576, 6, 1150
5 ltr, 112, 4, 1151
20 ltr, 24, 1, 1153
60 ltr, 6, 1, 1152
205 ltr, 2, 1, 1156

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This is for Lubro Moly, no?
The numbers I have are something like LM 2148, or LM 1332
I presume I should just append the prefix of LM.
Where did you find those numbers?...

Right now, my local parts place wanted $16/L for the 505.01 stuff, so $20 (even US)/L isn't that much more. After a small argument, I got mine for $9CDN/L, however it won't happen again.

I'll ask about the 506.01 stuff for my next oil change, which will be in a couple months

The info is from Liqui-Moly. I'm not sure how the part #'s relate to how North American retailers order their stuff. The L-M 506.01 oil wasn't in my retailers ordering catalog when I asked about it, but he could get the Elf 506.01.

Gah, I just had a big fight with a local parts place...
What a bunch of goofballs. They looked up oil for my golf (on thursday last week) through WorldPac, who listed LM2XXX, I forget the numbers, after I told him 5 times that it was the wrong oil, he proceeded to order it anyways, telling me to at least check what it says on the bottle. Guess what, it shows up (yesterday), and it's 505.00 certified, not 505.01... So, this time I come in armed with the part numbers for the 505.01 oil. We call up worldpac, and they tell us that the people at lubro-moly (who they say they called) claim there is no need for a 505.01 certified oil, and that they do not make one.... So, we order LM 1332 and LM 1331 (I needed a 1L to top up) through Altrom, and it shows up in a Lubro-Moly bottle (today), bearing the 505.01 certification.....
I am really starting to worry about Lubro-Moly....
There is a local company called Oils Unlimited (who doesn't deal with Lubro-Moly, so really, they should be called Oils Limited, but that's a whole different matter), I will see if they deal with Elf, otherwise I think I will be ordering from TDIParts.com or somebody similar from now on.
After this oil change, I plan to use 506.01, who has the best price on Elf 506.01 AND ships to canada?.. I don't even know of all of the sites online to check them all out.

Oh, now I sound smart... It's liqui-moly, my bad

Anyhoo, I found the part numbers for what Worldpac listed...
LM 2040, LM 2041. Either way, it's wrong

Zero... that's unfortunate. Can definitely be tricky when you come in knowing more than the guy behind the counter. I'm kind of in the same boat - I know I can get the Elf locally (well, special order), but I'll try again for L-M 506.01 just in case.
Liqui-Moly and Lubro-Moly are the same - Lubro is in North America. My 505.01, however, is branded as Liqui-Moly.

Liqui Moly is selling their products in the US and Canada under the brand name LUBRO MOLY.LUBRO MOLY is a brand of LIQUI MOLY GmbH.

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Hmm... should have my UOA on the 505.01 soon...

Okay, don't sound _AS_ dumb now....

Mine came branded Liqui-Moly as well.
I'm interested in the UOA of your LM 505.01. Did you do VOA as well?

I'll try Oils Unlimited, I haven't gotten around to calling them yet...

I did do a VOA; unfortunately, despite requesting so, they neglected to perform a TBN analysis. I'll post all the info once I get the 5k mile (8066km) UOA results back... still hoping to hear this week.

FYI, my '04 is at ~62k km...

Elf 507.00 VOAs & TBN discussion

I have no explanation for the differences between the Zinc and Phosphorous levels. I poured oil from the same freshly opened container of Elf Solaris LLX 507.00 into CAT and Staveley sample bottles and sent them off.




FWIW...

Regarding Recommended TBN: on pages 31 & 32 of the CAT "Oil and your engine" booklet, in direct injection (DI) diesel engines the minimum TBN of a new oil should be 10 times the fuel sulfur level.

For example: if fuel sulfur is 1%, minimum TBN of new oil should be 10. 1% = 10,000ppm (high sulfur off road diesel fuel).

Low Sulfur Diesel (LSD) is limited to 500ppm or .05%. .05 x 10 = a recommended minimum new oil TBN of 0.5. However, the CAT booklet does state that "the minimum TBN of oil is 5 regardless of fuel sulfur level".

Oil analysis results are in:

vikingrob - that's a good UOA. did you use a vaccuum oil sampling pump to extract the sample? how long do you intend to keep the oil in or have you changed it already? 0w-30 506.01 is a nice oil for MN winter use...

fitzski said:

I did do a VOA; unfortunately, despite requesting so, they neglected to perform a TBN analysis. I'll post all the info once I get the 5k mile (8066km) UOA results back... still hoping to hear this week.

FYI, my '04 is at ~62k km...

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very cool! i definitely look forward to seeing your VOA and UOA lab results!

SUNRG said:

vikingrob - that's a good UOA. did you use a vaccuum oil sampling pump to extract the sample? how long do you intend to keep the oil in or have you changed it already? 0w-30 506.01 is a nice oil for MN winter use...

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I used the sampling pump, and I intend to keep the oil in perhaps to 60-64k miles.

vikingrob said:

I used the sampling pump, and I intend to keep the oil in perhaps to 60-64k miles.

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i'd go with 60k ODO, as that would be roughly a 15k OCI. your TDI is actually still breaking in. once you're over 75k break-in will be 97% complete and we'll have ULSD fuel, so you could easily go with 20k OCIs.