alh tdi timing belt job, and the mark n match, or "mark n pray"

So my 00' Tdi beetle's water pump had recently started leaking. I've owned the beetle since late last year, the previous owner didn't know if or when the timing belt had been changed, (car now has 207k on it) non of which I was very concerned with given the sale price was a whooping $1100 bucks.
Anyway, I inspected the belt and found it in "ok for now" shape with plans to do the job myself this summer.

Fast forward to recent.
I ordered up all the parts, 62mm lower, tensioner, metal blade water pump, belt, and the other rollers as well, all 100k part numbers.
I've done timing belts in other cars a few times, however this was my first diesel.
Before the parts arrived I got the car apart and as far as I could go without the new parts. Crank at tdc, cam also. I don't own the "right tools" so with the cam I used a steel bar that fit in the slot perfectly, I locked the injector pump simply with a bolt that fit the hole perfectly.
So I've read the "right way" how to. Which was a great deal of help to a diesel newb like myself.
But what confused me, was why exactly the cam gear needed to come off, and why the injector pump needed to be loosened and reset with vag-com.
Many hours of searching and reading resulted in nothing more then "you have to" or, you "CANNOT" do this engine using the "mark and pray".
So I basicly said, "why not??"
The engine is locked, it ran perfect when I backed it into my garage, why wouldn't it run perfect again after the mark and match method?
I had perfect luck with my 02' 2.0 gasser (30k miles ago, still runs great)
So why can't I?

So last wendsday the parts arrived, and I did just that, mark and match at the crank, cam and injector pump. I didn't loosen the injector pump bolts, I didn't remove the cam gear.
And after it was all said and done, the engine still runs perfect.. no cell's, nothing different.

So,, with all that said. Am I missing something here?

Just wanted to share.
Oh and to any newbs like myself, the job wasn't difficult really.

Interested in the responses to this. I'll be doing a TB job this summer as well.

So right now the cam and injection pump are set at whatever the last person set it at.

The reason the cam and pump gear should be loosened is because when the tensioner is set and everything is loose, the pump and cam are locked and the gears move to their happy home.

Will your engine run? Yes. Will it be optimum? Probably not. Will you notice the difference? Probably not.

The biggest exposure when attempting mark and pray, is the possibility of the valves hitting pistons. Using the cam lock tool should prevent this, as you would be able to verify the relationship between the crank tdc and cam tdc. Where this can be an issue is if the cam and crank are a little bit off due to belt stretch, and then differences in belt manufacture result in your new belt adding to that.

Let's say the previous wrench also did mark and pray... You might end up with a belt that is almost a tooth off (seen it). That's territory where a little belt stretch will have valves kiss pistons - with disastrous results.

Insert *do you feel lucky, punk?* comment here...

hmm.

In regards to the tensioner and "happy gears"
Everything was locked down prior to loosening the old tensioner, and everything was left locked until the new tensioner was tight. So I guess I still don't understand why it would matter.
And of course I turned the engine over by hand (and from the crank, not cam) several times and felt for any issues before reassembly and starting.

Again, engine ran perfect before, and still runs perfect. I have put 10k miles on it since I've owned it.
Actuly, if you think about it. Regardless of where the cam, injector pump, or crank are. If all three are locked down, marked, belt marked, marks transfered to new belt, counted, recounted, recounted again, installed and tension set.
Wouldnt the engine run exsactly as it did? Just doesnt add up.
(Of course however, I would never attempt it without having everything locked at tdc in case lighting struck a nearby tree leveling the garage and possibly popping the cam lock out or something lol)And proof of that is my engine purring away.

.

I couldn't agree more with this comment.....
if,,,, the car that backed into the garage for the belt job wasn't already running perfect and or had a timing belt break.

Windex said:

The biggest exposure !when attempting mark and pray, is the possibility of the valves hitting pistons. Using the cam lock tool should prevent this, as you would be able to verify the relationship between the crank tdc and cam tdc. Where this can be an issue is if the cam and crank are a little bit off due to belt stretch, and then differences in belt manufacture result in your new belt adding to that.

Let's say the previous wrench also did mark and pray... You might end up with a belt that is almost a tooth off (seen it). That's territory where a little belt stretch will have valves kiss pistons - with disastrous results.

Insert *do you feel lucky, punk?* comment here...

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It's been hashed over many times here and people believe what they want to believe. What I believe is that it ends up better and it's easier to loosen the pulleys before tensioning the belt.

Izuk-
Believe it or not, you chose to do it the hard way. Things line up much easier when you do it by the book.

thanks for the input guys.

Thanks for the responses guys.
Just want to be clear that I respect your responses and I in no way am attempting to come off otherwise.

Not sure it was "the hard way" it was probably the 2nd easyest belt job I've ever done, and took me 6hours. Which I didn't think was bad for a diesel newb

My thing is that I like things to be as perfect as I can get them, I think if you're competent it's unlikely you'll do damage as such but there's a chance it's not as good as it could be.

When you have the cam and ip sprocket loose and tighten the tensioner, the 2 sprockets actually MOVE. You can watch this video closely and see the action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TKuSOv6FZ8

If you keep the 2 sprockets tight....when you tighten the tensioner....the sprockets cant move. So the belt just stretches instead.

Like others have said since you pinned and locked everything, it will probably be fine.

Just my 2¢

The belt cannot be tensioned properly if the cam and IP are pinned and not loosened. Period.

You absolutely need to set the timing with VCDS because your IP timing is likely off(they are sometimes off even with proper tools) ...car will likely not start in the winter or have overly advanced timing which will lead to melted pistons...then there's the issue of the belt popping 30K or so down the road because its tensioned incorrectly... happens a LOT.

thanks guys

Thanks for the input guys!
One thing I didn't note was that when I set tension, the crank was not locked. The crank was locked only until all the marks were perfectly aligned.
And yes, the crank did move slightly when the tension was set, allowing the slack to be removed properly as well.

I'm not at all against checking or setting the timing with vagcom, I do plan to get it sometime down the road.
All I'm getting at is the fact that everything is exactly where it was before the belt job, and it runs the same.

100k

You guys I'm sure will know the answer to this also, all the parts are the 100k ones, tensioner, 62mm lower, belt, and of course the metal water pump, does anyone actuly wait that long? I do plan to keep the car for a long time and was thinking I would more likely plan the next change at 80k rather then 100.
Thoughts?
The car is currently an auto, and I understand that changes things in regards to service intervals of the timing components. I am planning a 5speed swap in the near future, not because I am having trans issues, but I like standard, and look forward to the jump in mpg as well
Currently its getting 43-45

Izuk said:

Thanks for the input guys!
One thing I didn't note was that when I set tension, the crank was not locked. The crank was locked only until all the marks were perfectly aligned.
And yes, the crank did move slightly when the tension was set, allowing the slack to be removed properly as well.

I'm not at all against checking or setting the timing with vagcom, I do plan to get it sometime down the road.
All I'm getting at is the fact that everything is exactly where it was before the belt job, and it runs the same.

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So now the timing is not perfectly correct after you tension the belt.
The cam sprocket needs to move slightly as the tensioner moves the belt position while the actual cam (locked) and crank and IP remain set. Belt tensioning w/o cam sprocket loose tries to rotate something and will be much better/easier w/cam sprocket free.
It will no doubt run and not interfere, but it won't be optimal.

TB intervals were initially different (much shorter 40k mile interval) for automatics up to the 2001 model year, at which time they became the same 60k mile interval. Then with the upgraded large roller and belt 80/100k mile depending on how you want to procede. I'm using the 80k mile change interval just because between the two cars neither get a lot of miles/year and it will probably not even add up to an extra belt change over the rest of their ownership life.

yep

Yep I'm kinda thinking the same thing too. 80k.

The timing should be exactly where it was before the job. Don't forget, the belt teeth were marked on the cam, IP, and crank, markes were transfered to the new belt and triple counted. Total belt teeth on both belts were also counted and verrified to match exactly.
So, in theory, the engine is precisely where it was before I took it apart.

belt

For those considering this method, I found the easyest way to get the new belt on was with both idler pulleys not yet installed, crank pulley first with the 3 marks I made lined up perfectly, then IP and cam last. Then tensioner was left loose and pushed in tight+ notch lined up in head as I slid the belt on the cam sprocket. Everything went pretty easy this way. Then install the idlers and set tension.

Izuk said:

Yep I'm kinda thinking the same thing too. 80k.

The timing should be exactly where it was before the job. Don't forget, the belt teeth were marked on the cam, IP, and crank, markes were transfered to the new belt and triple counted. Total belt teeth on both belts were also counted and verrified to match exactly.
So, in theory, the engine is precisely where it was before I took it apart.

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Yes it probably is exactly where it was Before.
Could you please set the engine to TDC again and lock the cam and IP with your tools and verify that the crank is exactly at the mark? Just for laughs

I have home-made Tools too, they're easy enough to make so no shame in that. I also agree with you about the job being quite easy, I think that you actually made it harder by not loosening the cam and IP sprocket.

Looking forward to hearing if you got the locks back on using your method...

lol

If the car was not 100% back together and currently being driven daily yes
But since it is, and running perfect. In see no need.

nokivasara said:

Yes it probably is exactly where it was Before.
Could you please set the engine to TDC again and lock the cam and IP with your tools and verify that the crank is exactly at the mark? Just for laughs

I have home-made Tools too, they're easy enough to make so no shame in that. I also agree with you kabout the job being quite easy, I think that you actually made it harder by not loosening the cam and IP sprocket.

Looking forward to hearing if you got the locks back on using your method...

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Why did you ask, if you were just going to disregard what people told you?

.

whitedog said:

Why did you ask, if you were just going to disregard what people told you?

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As the original post says at the bottom, "just wanted to share"
In other words, it has already been proven, and has worked fine. But I appreciate the input. I just wonder how many people who are 100% against it, have actuly tryed it.

Izuk said:

... I just wonder how many people who are 100% against it, have actuly tryed it.

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Have you actually tried doing it by the book?

no sir

tditom said:

Have you actually tried doing it by the book?

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No sir.
No vag com or official tools.
Nor am I against it
I worked with what I had.

I see no reason to try it your way when to do so you need to fight the belt teeth to line up with the sprockets. Its easier to do it the right way...

Izuk said:

If the car was not 100% back together and currently being driven daily yes
But since it is, and running perfect. In see no need.

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That's what I thought.

Good for you that it worked out, I'm sure it runs just like before, why wouldn't it?
If you get any timing related issues you know why, if not, just keep trucking
The thing is that you don't know how your timing is, especially since you didn't try to fit the locks after turning the Engine by hand. I don't know if the book says you should do that or not but I always do. Twice!

timing.

Thank you,
I did read about turning it over twice and I probably did it more like 12 times lol just to be sertant.
And yes I actuly did line everything back up and put the locks back in after turning it over a few times by hand, I just don't "really" wanna tare it back apart and do it now

nokivasara said:

That's what I thought.

Good for you that it worked out, I'm sure it runs just like before, why wouldn't it?
If you get any timing related issues you know why, if not, just keep trucking
The thing is that you don't know how your timing is, especially since you didn't try to fit the locks after turning the Engine by hand. I don't know if the book says you should do that or not but I always do. Twice!

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yep

I honestly agree with you. And had I had vag com, I probably would have.
There was actuly zero fighting involved with lining up the marks.
I first did the crank, then slipped on the IP, lastly the cam, 9 "mark and match" marks all together. It really was very simple.

I do want to get the timing checked out on vag com, I would like to know where it is, and if it needs adjusted, or if I could possibly be getting even better mpg with it.
As it is now it runs just as it did before the job, but in agreement with one other response, who knows where the PO has it set, regardless of its non relation to the belt job I just did.
Anyone know off hand which vag com I need?
Would love to also be able to use it on my 02' gasser if possible.

tditom said:

I see no reason to try it your way when to do so you need to fight the belt teeth to line up with the sprockets. Its easier to do it the right way...

Click to expand...

Izuk said:

As the original post says at the bottom, "just wanted to share"
In other words, it has already been proven, and has worked fine. But I appreciate the input. I just wonder how many people who are 100% against it, have actuly tryed it.

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Actually:

So,, with all that said. Am I missing something here?

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You asked. We told you. You ignore it.

Izuk said:

I honestly agree with you. And had I had vag com, I probably would have.

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Having vagcom has nothing to do with the mechanical alignment of the cam and crank. Go ahead and try doing it the right way next time and then come back and tell us how that went.

Izuk said:

Thank you,
I did read about turning it over twice and I probably did it more like 12 times lol just to be sertant.
And yes I actuly did line everything back up and put the locks back in after turning it over a few times by hand, I just don't "really" wanna tare it back apart and do it now

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In that case you have nothing to worry about, I thought you didn't put the locks in after turning the engine by hand.
If the locks go in and the crank is perfectly aligned with the TDC mark you are pretty safe, the timing may not be perfect but it's not far off either.
With VCDS on the other hand, you would be right at the perfekt timing!

I still think you should do it the right way next time, it's better to be 100% sure that you have done everything right. Like the tensioner, it just has to be set the right way or it will give in eventually.