Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

TornadoRed

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Where does this notion arise that the Bush Admin is against diesel-powered vehicles? Or that Big Oil wants to screw its diesel customers?
Hmm, I think because his emissions ideals target diesels. Very low NOx regs and not taking into account that there is less co2 created with a diesel.
Scott
I think most of the standards for fuel and emissions were set during the Clinton Administration. Standards for off-road equipment like earth-movers and certain tractors are the only "new" standards established in the last three years.

Okay, back to the topic.
 

ofhs93

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

If you are making a general comment, I say yippee yahoo!

If you are addressing me personally, I would say that the real utility of projections is after you buy the thing, you can MEASURE parts of the reality in the decision making process. (does it meet or exceed projections, etc etc., i.e., more importantly: how much? more/less or the usual suspects; who, what, why, where, when, and how?)

So naturally, (using your example) if you do 30/40k miles a year in driving, the real question is why did you even CONSIDER a 2.0?
After the first year the thing is going to cost you 1000 dollars per year more!! Obvious for each year you do 30/40k miles in a year!!

The price of fuel isn't close to a wash?! If you figure it by the fuel price per mile at say 2.21 unleaded (cheaper obviously) vs 2.39 diesel you are now talking .07367 cents vs .04979 or 32% more for unlead fuel, per mile. At the mileage you do (30/40k), you are talking about 1000 dollars per year? (955.20) or 80 dollars a month MORE (79.60)

Yes please take the political crap elsewhere..sheesh..now then...ruking...when I bought the 2.0 I was not doing 30-40k a year.....last march when gas started to make its move up and my 95 2.0 hit 200k miles I decided it was time to make a move. And I didn't mean a wash by price per mile...I meant per gallon..I KNOW the price per mile is WAY lower with the diesel...why the heck do you think I bought it????
 

ruking

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

I can only go by what you said, not by what you may or may not have meant?

If I understand you, the choice of the TDI was because it was: 1. time for another vehicle 2. your mileage picked up 3 ya did the math!
 

Blondee

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

I believe making biodiesel is a bit more complicated than using the grease from your oil. That's why a garage, space, and cleanliness is important. If it was that easy, everybody would do it.
 

WisTDI

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

I believe making biodiesel is a bit more complicated than using the grease from your oil. That's why a garage, space, and cleanliness is important. If it was that easy, everybody would do it.
Sorry, a bad attempt at humor on my part. I'll try to be more frumpy in the future.
 

elitdi

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Blondee,
My sisters Civic is a '98. It has over 150,000 miles on it, and I have been BEGGING her to put a new timing belt on it... she's STILL running the factory belt.
I will have to say the only things she's had to do to it is keep brakes and tires on it... I don't think she's ever had it tuned up either.
If VW didn't make the TDI, I'd probably be driving a Honda right now.
 

ofhs93

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

If I understand you, the choice of the TDI was because it was: 1. time for another vehicle 2. your mileage picked up 3 ya did the math!
YES!!!
I came up with the $80 a month fuel savings number as well
....thats practically half the car payment...so basically I got a car with 130k less miles on it and 5 years newer and more importantly safer and more reliable now that I have a little one...for less than $100 a month. Not to mention the time I save with less oil changes and not having to put a timing belt on for awhile and the expected longer life of the diesel motor. It was basically a no brainer for my situation once I found one that was in my price range
 

doc_m

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

i would have to agree with PassatTDIinPA why are some people worried about it, but then again some people always need to find something wrong with whatever so they can complain, I love my car, can afford to pay for it every month, could care less when the break even point was, plus the great help this site has been is a big thing to. You bought it enjoy it or sell it.
 

Wally

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Hi all. Here's my $0.02...

Yes, with new prices it does not matter; the diesel savings overtakes the difference rather rapidly.

As someone mentioned a while ago - make biodiesel and the difference (for a later model) is closed even faster. What I did was to take the price of gas (or diesel in my case)as $2 and the price of bio (about 40 cents per gallon) and divide it by the MPG for each car (I was generous and gave the gasser 27.5 and the TDI 42) this gave me the price per mile to fuel the car and I took the difference of these numbers. So it's roughly 6.3 cents difference, for me, per mile. Change the mileage and costs and this difference also changes, but it can only increase (using more realistic numbers I can achieve a difference of roughly 9 cents per mile).

Ok, so if you wanna know how many miles it will take to make up a certain dollar amount simply divide your miles by this amount. If you want to know how much money you've saved (or wasted if you have a gasser) multiply this difference by the number of miles and out pops the dollar figure.

As my difference is so large I decide to really lay it on, as it were. I totalled the cost of 4 cars (84 Volvo 760 TD, 81 rabbit NA, 96 Passat wagon, and a 98 NB) along with the price of repairs/maintenance, mods and the cost of my bio processor. I also totalled the number of miles on bio.

Bottom line: I will break even on everything in another 250,000 miles. I know, I know this sounds ridiculous, but I plan to have that wagon for at least another 100,000 miles and yes I considered oil changes and things breaking. If I remove the cost and miles for the non TDIs I have less than 195K miles to go - to pay back everything , not just the difference in cost, which is far more considerable when you buy used.

But to put it more into perspective. I have totalled (conservatively) 150K miles between the 4 cars. At this rate I have saved about $9,500 . That is enough to pay for the purchase price of both the wagon and the rabbit and to pay for my processor. So only three cars to go! Further, by the time the beetle needs an oil change, I've saved almost enough to make three payments - and after September it'll all be savings.

I believe making biodiesel is a bit more complicated than using the grease from your oil. That's why a garage, space, and cleanliness is important. If it was that easy, everybody would do it.
First of all, it is that easy. The reason everyone isn't doing it is the same reason everybody doesn't do all kinds of things. They are afraid of: change, , being seen as different, putting forth effort and not getting a return, not doing it right (that's the biggy), it won't work, or it will work; and, let's face it, alot of people are just plain lazy and don't want to do anything more than they have to.

As for clenliness, You obviously haven't seen my garage
But the mixer itself is clean. The reason for the garage is there is more space which allows me to make more at a time - currently 100 gallons at a wack - but if I wanted to make less it wouldn't take much. Do you know how to operate a blender? Can you shake a martini?

my earliest experiments were in a regular kitchen blender and now whenever I speak on the subject I shake up a batch (about 1.5 litres) in a 2 litre bottle at the begining of my talk and by the time I'm done you can see the seperation. Before I stepped up to large scale tho I did the following:

Mix methanol and sodium hydroxide in a 5 gallon bucket (feel free to use larger but I can easily carry a five gallon pale full of fuel). Then, I mixed using a paint mixer on a hand drill. If you don't have any of this it will set you back about 40$US depending on the quality of drill (including a few buckets, which are cheap). I then pour in the oil and mix again. Then move the mixture to somewhere dry and let it settle. You will only have made 4 gallons worth of usable fuel, so you'll want to do more than one at a time. But with the amount you drive one bucket would last a while. Done with good ventilation, and considering the small amount of ingredients used, this should be quite safe. If you become interested in the details let me know and I can lay it all out for you step by step from soup to nuts.
 

Ferrari

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread, but diesel cars are cheaper to insure than gas cars (insurance companies consider them lower risk). I'm saving at least $300 a year in insurance over a comparable gasoline VW, and along with the gas savings, the break-even point for me is about 3 years.
 

Blondee

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Mix methanol and sodium hydroxide in a 5 gallon bucket
Wally, how intriguing. Can you post your receipe online? Where does one get the sodium hydroxide?
 

Blondee

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

i would have to agree with PassatTDIinPA whI love my car, can afford to pay for it every month, could care less when the break even point was, plus the great help this site has been is a big thing to. You bought it enjoy it or sell it.
Meanwhile, back on planet earth. Most of us aren't fortunate enough to be in that situation.
 

rdkern

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Where does one get the sodium hydroxide?
Generally, the grocery store in sink cleaning/unclogging area. It's Lye. Red Devil is the brand I've seen around here.
 

doc_m

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

hey blondee i beg to differ i am on planet earth and as far as i can tell there seem to be alot of tdi's on the road that i can see and alot of people love them, not everyone has buyers remorse and bitter like some.....
 

Blackknight

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

I wouldn't mind a biodiesel brewing howto. How do you filter the crud out of the veggie oil?

Where do you get methanol from?
 

Wally

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

http://www.rpi.edu/~morriw/Biod1.htm

lots of links including the recipe and an example scaling. Journey to forvever was not working the day I made this page and I still haven't added it, but they are also a good source of info.

Sodium Hydroxide, NaOH, Lye, Caustic Soda, etc. are all the same thing. You want 99% pure or higher. This stuff is the byproduct of other reactions (making chlorine for pools for one) so it is dead cheap in all but the smallest quantities. Red devil is the only 100% lye product I have seen on the shelves at supermarkets and hardware stores. It is more likely at a True Value than an Ace. If you are still experiemnting then get one of those; it's a pound+ and will last a bit making a few liters here and there. However, once you are sure you are going to keep at it (and who wouldn't?) Red devil is too expensive, or rather is a waste of money.

Methanol is another story. Again, for the experimentor, it is alright to pay more for it by buying it from a racing outfit or getting a chemical company to repackage some for you (I started this way getting 5 gallon buckets of it) but once you know you are in it for real you'll be wanting to get the methanol by the drum and the lye by the 55 pound bag. Both of these are readily available at chemical suppliers. So keep calling until you fimd the best price. BTW, if they ask, you should say that you are making a fuel additive, some place won't sell to you if you say you are making fuel because they don't want to get involved in taxes other than sales.

I know blondee mentioned space is an issue, or at least he didn't have a garage, so the choices are few. A friends garage, a storage facitlity (added expense), getting smaller quatities (added expense), or outside near you house, etc. I dunno really, you'll have to figure that out.

I don't really filter the oil excpet to pour it through a standard kithcen wire-mesh strainer. This is simply to get the frenchfries and chicken bones. After the fuel has settled for a week or so it can be poured off into fueling cans being careful not to pour in the by product, which is soap that contains all the impurities from the oil and excess methanol. A distillery can be setup to reclaim methanol, but for simplicity's sake, let's leave that be for now.

Happy reading
 

Blondee

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

hey blondee i beg to differ i am on planet earth and as far as i can tell there seem to be alot of tdi's on the road that i can see and alot of people love them, not everyone has buyers remorse and bitter like some.....
True, not everyone has gone through the SHEAT I have been through with their TDI (see past threads). Buying another new car and being indebt and foregoing purchasing a home for another 5 years is not a welcoming option. But, everytime I see an older lady driving a TDI in the city, I know that she will go through hell in the years to come with the car (if she doesn't die from cancer due to the diesel exhaust).

Unlike you, I am in congested Vancouver city where city stop and go driving is the norm and I rarely drive on the highway. Diesel is at a prime rate here. Driving to Abbotsford or Chilliwack for cheaper fuel is not a feasable option. So for those in the valley or drive the highway a lot like yourself, will benefit from the TDI.
 

Y2KBuggy

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

"For us high mileage drivers, 60k doesn't take long....less than two years for me."

60K miles is a low mileage year for me


From the time I decided to get a diesel, I figured that if I hit 300K with my diesel (it's only at 269K right now), I have broken even because I've gotten the lifetimes of 2 gassers (Geo-type) that would have each cost a lttle more than half what I paid for my 2000 New Beetle (at that time the TDI and gas N.B. were the same price).

Until lately, the price of diesel averaged about $.10 less than gas and the TDI has averaged about 10mpg better than what I would have gotten with the gas.

Sooo...

Using rounded, averaged figures:

TDI 270,000/50 mpg = 5400 gallons x 1.50 avg = $8100
Gas 270,000/40 mpg = 6750 gallons x 1.60 avg = $10,800

TDI 270,000/5,000 miles oil change = 54 x $60 = $3240
Gas 270,000/2,500 miles oil change = 108 x $60 = $6480

TDI 3 cases additive/year x $50 = $150 x 4.5 years = $675
Gas No additive = $0

270,000/20,000 mile service interval = 13.5 x $800 (avg service + repairs + in-between-service repairs) = $10,800
270,000/30,000 mile service interval = 9 x $600 (avg service + repairs + in-between-service repairs) = $5400

TDI 270,000 mile total operating cost (not including purchase price): $22,815
Gas 270,000 mile total operating cost (not including purchase price): $23,760

TDI $/mile to operate: $22,815/270,000 = $0.0845
Gas $/mile to operate: $23,760/270,000 = $0.088

Unfortunately, diesel is between .30 and .40 a gallon more than gas... soooooo... the operating cost will bring the break-even point back to about 300,000 miles (losing ground right now, as I am ahead
)

Current operating cost of the TDI is about .02/mile higher than previous average


But I'm not looking for another car, like I would be had I purchased gas (twice over already!)

My Y2K bug is buggy!
 

TornadoRed

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Y2KBuggy, your numbers are bogus. I won't dispute your 40 mpg estimate for a Metro or similar gas econobox. But who in their right mind would spend $60 for oil changes, especially every 2500 miles? I'd spend $15-20 every 5000 miles. And my TDI costs me about $30 every 10,000 miles for oil changes.

I'd use a different additive. And spend maybe $100 a year if driving in the Snow Belt, and $50 if driving in the Sun Belt.

I would never own a car that cost me $800 to service every 20k miles. Even if that is an estimate of repair costs too, that is too much. How about $2500 every 100k miles? To spend more than that, you have to be very unlucky, or you have to seriously abuse your vehicle. (If you spend $800 for TB changes, that leaves $1700 for tires, brakes, trannies, injection pumps, glowplug harnesses, turbos, headlamps, wiperblades, MAF sensors, etc.)

Yet somehow the operating-cost numbers you end up with actually look reasonable! You over-estimate the cost of everything (EXCEPT FUEL!) and end up with just about what I would estimate. Hmmm... I guess I include insurance in the equation. And I've been using $2.00/gallon for the cost of diesel.
 

Monkey1

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Hey everyone "how about a nice cup of shut the F*$k up!"
Drive your car and be happy!
 

Y2KBuggy

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

TornadoRed--

Unfortunately, I've had some very expensive repairs and without breaking down each and every expenditure, I figured it would be easier to average everything together the best I could. If I could solve the cold weather freezing and the cold rain/wet sensor problems my maintenance costs would go waaaaaay down...
I take good care of my bug and don't abuse it, but I did drive it out of warranty in 4 months
. We've often wondered if this is a Monday or Friday car
.

Depending on many factors, you can expect your:
H20 pump to last approximately 125,000 miles
brakes to last approximately 150,000 miles
clutch to last ?!!! (I still have the original at 269,000)


Oil change--
Oil-- $4-5/qt for Syntec = $20-25
Oil filter-- $8-12 depending on where I get it
Slick 50 Synthetic-- $20 once every 4 oil changes (avg $5 per O.C.)
$10 labor (includes used oil disposal)
$10 --lunch for my friend who owns the shop and gets my car in ASAP and doesn't charge the usual labor rate and rescues me whenever and wherever I break down. Etc. etc. etc.

Prices are approximate and include the local exorbitant sales taxes and allow for the 1 quart break every 4 oil changes (I get my 1/4 of a quart back and save the quarters up for use when I have 3 for the 3/4 quart).

So, it would be about $50 without lunch. I think the dealership charges $51 if I don't bring in my own oil and filter, but this may have changed (I never did have an other-than-free oil change done all by itself at the dealership). And I don't know if that includes the shop fee (EPA).

Poor Boy's is the only place I will take my car in this area, and the only people around here that I will allow to tow my car. Otherwise, it's up to the dealership, which is over 120 miles away. Unfortunately, my friend is not a VW specialist and much of my maintenance is performed at the dealership (and we all know how much labor rates are there
).

Since this last round of fuel price gouging started I've only paid $2+/gallon a couple of times... when I first got the car, I was paying $.79-.89/gallon.

If you can tell me where I can get the Syntec for a lot cheaper....

My Y2K bug is buggy!
 

doc_m

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Hey everyone "how about a nice cup of shut the F*$k up!"
Drive your car and be happy!
well yes i would have to say when it comes right down to it if ya don't like it get something you "might" be happy, mind you I would find it safe to assume there would be soemthing wrong with that car to so the cycle continues...
 

TornadoRed

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Oil change--
Oil-- $4-5/qt for Syntec = $20-25
Oil filter-- $8-12 depending on where I get it
Slick 50 Synthetic-- $20 once every 4 oil changes (avg $5 per O.C.)
$10 labor (includes used oil disposal)
$10 --lunch for my friend who owns the shop and gets my car in ASAP and doesn't charge the usual labor rate and rescues me whenever and wherever I break down. Etc. etc. etc.
First, I'd switch from Castrol Syntec to Mobil Delvac, or Mobil 1 Truck and SUV, either one in the 5w40 weight. I used Syntec in my Saab 900, and it was fine, but it's not the best oil for a TDI. (And I'm not sure it was the best for my Saab either, though I put 292k miles on that one.)

And I'd change the oil every 10k miles, not every 5k. Since you drive so much, most of your driving MUST be highway driving, so 10k miles is conservative; used oil analyses suggest Delvac can go 15k miles or more between changes.

(And I'd skip the Slick50, too. Not needed.)

If you update your profile, to show where you live, I'm sure someone can suggest alternatives to the stealership.
 

Rammstein

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

What's Slick50? What is it for?

Buggy, I do my oil changes every 12000 miles and do mostly highway.


Oil analysis says it's alright!

You should learn to do a few things yourself, it saves big bucks.

The only thing I would do at the stealership would be an alignment.
 

Y2KBuggy

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Why isn't Syntec the best oil to use in a TDI? This is what the dealership always puts in and what has been recommended... does it change depending on the kind and amount of driving? When I worked at a garage (long, long, ago, in a galaxy far far away), I was told that once you use a particular oil over time that you shouldn't change (so always ask the customer or refer to their service records to get the right oil).

Oil analysis showed 5k oil change was the best time to do it on my car using Syntec (either 0-50 or 5-50, I don't remember what is on the bottle), although it's usually done sometime during the week closest to that point.

I've used Slick 50 in the Miata (broken in on Autobahn) and now the bug to help prolong engine life. OA and just plain visual shows the difference when the oil is changed on both cars. After doing some reading and asking some questions, I figured I can get away with only adding it once every 4 oil changes and still get the protection. I heard recently that fully synthetic oil gives the same protection, but I haven't had time to verify this. I also heard recently that I shouldn't put Slick 50 in a diesel and that it was OK as long as I was using synthetic oil and synthetic S50.
Wish everyone could agree--it would make things soooooo much easier!

(sigh) Some things I can do myself, but for various reasons choose not to
. There are, however, some things I would like to do myself and now that I've found this website (thanks, Fred! and everyone!)...


My Y2K bug is buggy!
 

doc_m

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somwhere
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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

well as for the oil I'm not exactly sure if it's needed to stick to the exact same one, I'm no technician but as long as it's rated for the car I would be ok with putting it in my car, as for the syntec there are some that say it's only a group 3 oil, as for the slick 50, personally i woudln't bother, out of the 3 cars I've driven never had that in one, they all been diesels, and never had much go wrong with them. all fairly high kms on them all too.

hey blondee just my 2 cents here but if the money was suck a problem then why buy such an "expensive" car? seems to me it's your own fault that your in such a bad finincial place not the cars.
 

TornadoRed

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Why isn't Syntec the best oil to use in a TDI? This is what the dealership always puts in and what has been recommended...
Here is a good place to start:
http://www.tdiclub.com/TDIFAQ/TDiFAQ-4.html
It's a bit outdated, though. The current standard is CI-4, the best oil for turbocharged diesel engines with EGR. The oils listed in the TDIFAQ all meet the current standard. 5w40 is the oil weight to look for, though some members have had good results with a 0w40 oil. Always full synthetic, not conventional and not a blend.

I was told that once you use a particular oil over time that you shouldn't change (so always ask the customer or refer to their service records to get the right oil).
If you start with the right oil, you shouldn't need to change. Or you wouldn't want to. But if you change to something completely different, maybe shorten the OCI (oil change interval). IMO you are already changing rather frequently... about twice as often as most tdiclub members using a sythetic 5w40 designed for our engines.

Oil analysis showed 5k oil change was the best time to do it on my car using Syntec (either 0-50 or 5-50, I don't remember what is on the bottle)
According the Castrol USA website, both the 5w50 and 20w50 meet the ACEA B4 standard. The 5w40 Syntec also meets or exceeds the VW 505.00 standard. If you want to stay with Syntec, then switch to the 5w40. It is hard to find except at a VW dealership or online.

It's not my intent to start an oil war; there have been such wars in the past, threads that extended to hundreds of messages, debating the advantages or disadvantages of this or that motor oil. Suffice to say that most members (but not all) like Mobil Delvac 1 (or its repackaged twin Mobil 1 Truck and SUV), or Amsoil, or Shell Rotella T, or Chevron Delo 400, or Petro Canada Duron. A recently-posted chart comparing different motor oils shows that Castrol Syntec 5w40 is approximately the equal of each of the oils just listed.

So I will not advise you to stop using Castrol Syntec. Just switch to 5w40. And extend your OCI... you should be able to go 10k miles between oil changes, just like it says in your owners manual.

Modern synthetic motor oils do not require any additives like Slick 50.
 

Blondee

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Location
Canada
TDI
Jetta
Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

hey blondee just my 2 cents here but if the money was suck a problem then why buy such an "expensive" car? seems to me it's your own fault that your in such a bad finincial place not the cars.
I take some blame, but not all. It was my fault for trusting Fred and his FAQ and assuming owning a TDI would actually save me money. It's VW's fault for bringing this car into the USA and Canada when it is meant for Europe and for those that drive their car a lot, somewhat hard,and do their own maintenance.

Like I posted previously, "the service department told me that the TDI is not for me. I should be driving a Toyota or Honda". They also think I may be jinxed as well, which I tend to agree.
 

snorksca

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 11, 2004
Location
Ottawa, Ontario
TDI
Jetta Wagon, 2004, Red
Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

I take some blame, but not all. It was my fault for trusting Fred and his FAQ and assuming owning a TDI would actually save me money.
Absolutely crazy to believe that you can save money with a new car. Buy a 4-6 year old car (Echo or Civic for around $7-8K where someone else has taking the majority of the depreciation hit) and then drive it for two years and sell it for almost what you paid for it. Do this every two to three years depending on its resale value and how reliable it is has been during this period. You will have very little maintenance expense, fairly good reliability, and will incur the least amount of depreciation. Who buys a $20-25K car to save money? Not very logical to me. Even buying a bus pass for $75/month is a better idea and then taking a cab when you absolutely can't get there on a bus is less expensive.
 
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