106 MPG & more -- not for sale in America

oxford_guy

Veteran Member
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Mar 19, 2011
Location
Ohio
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Golf '11
Ford just announced today that they plan to bring their 1L 3 cylinder "Eco-Tech" (gas) engine to the US to get over 50mpg in their small cars. We shall see what happens (and how many they can sell).
It's amusing how gimmicky and impractical the "solutions" to fuel efficiency in the USA are. I wonder if they'll get a $10,000 per person tax incentive for those vehicles.

A 1.6 Bluemotion TDI Passat beats most "fuel-efficient" small cars available here, right -- at least on the highway. Yet, people continue to portray this topic as being about Yugos versus pickups.
 

timwagon

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Apr 5, 2010
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Hauppauge, NY
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2010 Jetta Sportwagen Stick
It's amusing how gimmicky and impractical the "solutions" to fuel efficiency in the USA are...
Last year much tougher fuel economy standards became law:

The heads of the Transportation Department and the Environmental Protection Agency signed final rules setting fuel efficiency standards for model years 2012-2016, with a goal of achieving by 2016 the equivalent of 35.5 miles per gallon combined for cars and trucks, an increase of nearly 10 mpg over current standards set by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

In the past the auto industry has reacted in horror to any hint of tougher fuel economy standards. Here's the reaction to these new regulations by a leading industry association representative:

Dave McCurdy, a former congressman from Oklahoma who leads the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, a trade group representing 11 automakers, said the industry supports a single national standard for future vehicles, saying the program "makes sense for consumers, for government policymakers and for automakers."

An increase of 40% in average fuel economy over a five year period isn't a gimmick.
 

oxford_guy

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Location
Ohio
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Golf '11
An increase of 40% in average fuel economy over a five year period isn't a gimmick.
It sounds like one to me. Why not provide incentives to encourage people to buy the sort of vehicles that are already available in places like the UK, and disincentives for inefficient vehicles? We don't need to wait 5 years. These vehicles are already being produced. They could be here in one year, after some adjustments and testing.

Instead, we have $10,000 per car electric vehicle subsidies, ethanol, and other preposterous "solutions". "40% more fuel-efficient" isn't so hot if vehicles are around that do considerably better than that without a lot of questionable tech like batteries that rely on China-monopolized rare earths, burning crops, and $10,000 per car subsidies.

A few token vehicles are put into the market here, vehicles that are badly compromised -- even though there are far less compromised vehicles available in the UK like that Bluemotion Passat.

with a goal of achieving by 2016 the equivalent of 35.5 miles per gallon combined for cars and trucks
That's nothing, when talking about cars. Lumping cars and trucks together is more smoke and mirrors.
 

tditom

Top Post Dawg
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Location
Jackson, MI
TDI
formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
...That's nothing, when talking about cars. Lumping cars and trucks together is more smoke and mirrors.
You couldn't be more wrong. When the best selling vehicle is a pickup truck, acheiving a CAFE of 35 mpg is indeed an impressive acheivement. You're in BF-Ohio- look around you and tell us how many pickups, SUVs and mini-vans you see. What type of auto would it take to offset those gas guzzlers?

The new CAFE standards are an agressive step. It will be interesting to see how the automakers respond and how our lawmakers enforce these standards.
 

timwagon

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2010
Location
Hauppauge, NY
TDI
2010 Jetta Sportwagen Stick
It sounds like one to me...
I guess we have different definitions of "gimmick".

A policy that increases fuel economy an average of 40% across the board, and includes both cars and trucks, seems pretty comprehensive.

You rail against incentives for electric cars, but then ask for the same for the fuel efficient cars you'd prefer. I'm not a fan of incentives targeted to specific vehicles, but you can't have it both ways.

I believe that broad-based improvements in fuel economy for all classes of vehicles is the most effective policy.
 

waspie

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2011
Location
ne ohio
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05.5 pkg2!
you speak about the cars being compromised and i have to agree there. when my wife was in the market for a new small car just a few months ago we had a lot of trouble finding a small car with higher efficiency and the nice creature comforts. with the exception of hyundai and vw all the other makers believe that ECO or SFE (gm and ford) means you don't want nav and heated seats and nice things.

they keep churning out base model crap and wonder why there's no serious uptake. that said, the last few months many small cars have been making the top 20 month-to-month.

It sounds like one to me. Why not provide incentives to encourage people to buy the sort of vehicles that are already available in places like the UK, and disincentives for inefficient vehicles? We don't need to wait 5 years. These vehicles are already being produced. They could be here in one year, after some adjustments and testing.

Instead, we have $10,000 per car electric vehicle subsidies, ethanol, and other preposterous "solutions". "40% more fuel-efficient" isn't so hot if vehicles are around that do considerably better than that without a lot of questionable tech like batteries that rely on China-monopolized rare earths, burning crops, and $10,000 per car subsidies.

A few token vehicles are put into the market here, vehicles that are badly compromised -- even though there are far less compromised vehicles available in the UK like that Bluemotion Passat.


That's nothing, when talking about cars. Lumping cars and trucks together is more smoke and mirrors.
 

oxford_guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Location
Ohio
TDI
Golf '11
you speak about the cars being compromised and i have to agree there. when my wife was in the market for a new small car just a few months ago we had a lot of trouble finding a small car with higher efficiency and the nice creature comforts. with the exception of hyundai and vw all the other makers believe that ECO or SFE (gm and ford) means you don't want nav and heated seats and nice things.

they keep churning out base model crap and wonder why there's no serious uptake. that said, the last few months many small cars have been making the top 20 month-to-month.
And, shouldn't bus fleets like Greyhound switch to diesel-electric hybrids? Sometimes I think we're living in the stone age in this country. We're still not even switched over to metric.
 

MikeMars

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
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UK
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Vento 1.9 TDi (retired), A4 1.9 TDi (rear end collision), VW Passat 1.9 TDi (retired), Audi A2 1.4 TDi
And, shouldn't bus fleets like Greyhound switch to diesel-electric hybrids? Sometimes I think we're living in the stone age in this country. We're still not even switched over to metric.
Well, we started to switch over to metric in 1970 and we're only 1/3 of the way there so far... by 2100 we might have finished!
 

rotarykid

Top Post Dawg
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Apr 27, 2003
Location
Piedmont of N.C. & the plains of Colorado
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Well, we started to switch over to metric in 1970 and we're only 1/3 of the way there so far... by 2100 we might have finished!

Actually we switched to the metric system in 1963 when we set up SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) system measures to Metric equivalents. At least that was what my university professor always said.
 

oxford_guy

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Mar 19, 2011
Location
Ohio
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Golf '11
Actually we switched to the metric system in 1963 when we set up SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) system measures to Metric equivalents. At least that was what my university professor always said.
Partially switched.
 

chilehead19

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Apr 24, 2005
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Bolivar, Ohio
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. 2014 Sportwagen TDi for me 2011 2dr golf for my wife
most americans can't understand metric, but the biggest selling container of pop is a 2L bottle, why?
 

oxford_guy

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Mar 19, 2011
Location
Ohio
TDI
Golf '11
SMART fortwo coupe fortwo coupe 54 bhp cdi 15in rear wheels [2011] Semi-automatic 5-speed 71.6 MPG US (86 Imperial)
SKODA Fabia Estate/Hatch 1.2 CR TDI 75PS Greenline II [2010] Manual 5-speed 69 MPG US (83 Imperial)
VW Polo 1.2 TDI 75PS BlueMotion Manual 5-speed 69 MPG US (83 Imperial)
SEAT Ibiza ST 1.2 CR TDI 75PS Ecomotive Manual 5-speed, start-stop, Coupe, 5 door 67.5 MPG US (81 Imperial)
SKODA Fabia Hatch 1.6 CR TDI 75PS [2010] Manual 5-speed 65.8 MPG US (79 Imperial)
FIAT Punto Evo 1.3 16v MultiJet 85 ECO [from Jan 2010] Manual 5-speed 65.8 MPG US (79 Imperial)
FORD Fiesta 1.6 Duratorq TDCi 90PS +DPF ECO [Post 2010¼ ] Manual 5-speed 63.3 MPG US (76 Imperial)
VAUXHALL Corsa 1.3CDTi 16v 95PS 3dr Hatch [from July 2010] Manual 5-speed 63.3 MPG US (76 Imperial)
RENAULT Clio dCi 86 90G Manual 5-speed 63.3 MPG US (76 Imperial)
SEAT Ibiza/Coupe 1.4 TDI 80PS Ecomotive 5dr Manual 5-speed 63.3 MPG US (76 Imperial)
FORD Focus 1.6 Duratorq TDCi 109PS 5dr Saloon ECO Start-Stop Manual 5-speed: 61.6 MPG US (74 Imperial)
VW Golf 1.6 TDI 105 PS BlueMotion SE Manual 5-speed: 61.6 MPG US (74 Imperial)
AUDI A3 1.6 TDI 105PS start-stop Manual 5-speed 61.6 MPG US (74 Imperial)
VOLVO C30, S40, V50 DRIVe Manual 6-speed, 5-speed 61.6 MPG US (74 Imperial)
PEUGEOT 207 1.6 HDi 90bhp ECONOMIQUE [from Aug 2009] Manual 5-speed 61.6 MPG US (74 Imperial)
SKODA Octavia Hatch 1.6 TDI 105PS Greenline Manual 5-speed 61.6 MPG US (74 Imperial)
CITROEN DS3 1.6HDi 90hp energy saving tyres Manual 5-speed, 92hp Airdream+ Manual 5-speed 61.6 MPG US (74 Imperial)
MINI Hatch R56 Cooper D Hatch +DPF Manual 6-speed 61.6 MPG US (74 Imperial)
TOYOTA Auris T4 1.8 VVT-i hybrid E-CVT [2010] Continuously Variable 61.6 MPG US (74 Imperial)
SEAT Leon 1.6 CR TDI 105PS Ecomotive Manual 5-speed 61.6 MPG US (74 Imperial)
KIA ceed 1.6 CRDi EcoDynamics Manual 6-speed 60 MPG US (72 Imperial)
FIAT 500/500C 1.3 16v MultiJet 95 [from 2010] Manual 5-speed 60 MPG US (72 Imperial)
MINI Clubman R55 Cooper D Clubman +DPF Manual 6-speed 60 MPG US (72 Imperial)
VW Polo 1.2 3 cylinder TDI 75PS SE Manual 5-speed 60 MPG US (72 Imperial)
SEAT Ibiza Coupe 1.2 CR TDI 75PS Manual 5-speed 60 MPG US (72 Imperial)

TOYOTA Prius Mark III 1.8 VVT-i Hybrid 15in wheel [2009] Continuously Variable 60 MPG US (72 Imperial)

FORD Focus 1.6 Duratorq TDCi 109PS 5dr Saloon ECO (Post 2010¼) Manual 5-speed: 59 MPG US (71 Imperial)
VAUXHALL Corsa 1.3CDTi 16v 75PS Life / Club 3dr Hatch [2010] Manual 5-speed 59 MPG US (71 Imperial)
CITROEN DS3 1.6HDi 90hp Manual 5-speed 59 MPG US (71 Imperial)
SEAT Ibiza ST 1.2 CR TDI 75PS S Manual 5-speed 59 MPG US (71 Imperial)
AUDI A1 1.6 TDI 105PS Manual 5-speed 59 MPG US (71 Imperial)
RENAULT Megane Sport Tourer dCi 106 [2011] Manual 6-speed 57.5 MPG US (69 Imperial)
AUDI A3 Sportback 1.6 TDIe 105PS Stop-Start 2 Limited equipment Manual 5-speed 57.5 MPG US (69 Imperial)
AUDI A3 1.6 TDIe 105PS Stop-Start Manual 5-speed 57.5 MPG US (69 Imperial)
VW Golf 1.6 TDI 105PS BlueMotion SE Manual 5-speed 57.5 MPG US (69 Imperial)
FORD Fiesta 1.6 Duratorq 95PS +DPF [Post 2010¼ ] Manual 5-speed 57.5 MPG US (69 Imperial)
FORD Ka 1.3 Duratorq 75PS [from 2011] Manual 5-speed 57.5 MPG US (69 Imperial)
VAUXHALL Astra Sports Tourer 1.3 CDTi 95PS 5dr [2011] Manual 5-speed 57.5 MPG US (69 Imperial)
VAUXHALL Astra 1.3CDTi 16v ecoFLEX 95PS 5dr Hatch 16/17in wheels Manual 5-speed 57.5 MPG US (69 Imperial)
LEXUS CT CT200h [2011] Continuously Variable 57.5 MPG US (69 Imperial)
TOYOTA Yaris 1.0 D-4-D [2009] Manual 6-speed 57.5 MPG US (69 Imperial)
MAZDA Mazda2 1.4 3dr 68PS/50kW [2007] Manual 5-speed 57.5 MPG US (69 Imperial)
SKODA Fabia/Estate 1.4 TDI/PD 80PS GreenLine +DPF Manual 5-speed 57.5 MPG US (69 Imperial)
FIAT Punto Evo 1.3 16v MultiJet 75 [from Jan 2010] Manual 5-speed 57.5 MPG US (69 Imperial)
CITROEN C1 1.4HDi Manual 5-speed 57.5 MPG US (69 Imperial)
CITROEN C3 1.4 HDi 70hp Manual 5-speed 57.5 MPG US (69 Imperial)
CITROEN C4 1.6 e-HDi 112hp EGS6 Airdream NC9HR8/2PS Automatic 6-speed 55.8 MPG US (67 Imperial)
CITROEN C4 1.6 HDi 92hp Manual 5-speed 55.8 MPG US (67 Imperial)
HYUNDAI i30 1.6l DOHC CRDi ISG 66kW Manual 6-speed 55.8 MPG US (67 Imperial)
HYUNDAI i20 1.4l 55kW engine & 15in wheels Manual 5-speed 55.8 MPG US (67 Imperial)
VW Golf Estate 1.6 TDI 105PS BlueMotion Manual 5-speed 55.8 MPG US (67 Imperial)
KIA ceed/proceed 1.6 CRDi EcoDynamics Manual 6-speed 55.8 MPG US (67 Imperial)
RENAULT Megane Sport Tourer dCi 106 [2011] Automatic 6-speed 55.8 MPG US (67 Imperial)
VW Jetta 1.6 TDI 105PS BlueMotion Technology S Manual 5-speed 55.8 MPG US (67 Imperial)
AUDI A3 Sportback 1.6 TDIe 105PS Stop-Start 1 Manual 5-speed 55.8 MPG US (67 Imperial)
RENAULT Megane Coupe/Hatch dCi 106, + Sport Tourer 2011, Automatic 6-speed 55.8 MPG US (67 Imperial)
SKODA Octavia Estate 1.6 TDI 105PS Greenline Manual 5-speed 55.8 MPG US (67 Imperial)
FORD Ka 1.3 Duratorq 75PS [2009] Manual 5-speed 55.8 MPG US (67 Imperial)
FIAT 500 1.3 16v MultiJet/75 Manual 5-speed 55.8 MPG US (67 Imperial)
FIAT Panda 1.3 16v MultiJet Euro 5 [from 2010] Manual 5-speed 55.8 MPG US (67 Imperial)
NISSAN Note 1.5 dCi 66kW [2011] Manual 6-speed 55.8 MPG US (67 Imperial)
VW Golf Plus 1.6 TDI 105PS BlueMotion MkVI Manual 5-speed 55 MPG US (66 Imperial)
VW Golf Estate 1.6 TDI 105PS BlueMotion 7speed DSG S Direct shift 7-speed 55 MPG US (66 Imperial)
VW Passat Saloon 1.6 CR TDI 105 PS BlueMotion Technology Manual 6-speed 55 MPG US (66 Imperial)
HYUNDAI i30 1.6l DOHC CRDi ISG 85kW 15/16in wheels Manual 6-speed 55 MPG US (66 Imperial)
CITROEN C2 1.4HDi Manual 5-speed 55 MPG US (66 Imperial)
ALFA ROMEO MiTo 1.3 JTDm 95 Manual 5-speed 55 MPG US (66 Imperial)
RENAULT Modus 1.5 dCi 86 Manual 5-speed 55 MPG US (66 Imperial)
HYUNDAI ix20 1.4l CRDi [from Nov 2010] Manual 6-speed 55 MPG US (66 Imperial)
MINI Hatch R56 Cooper SD Hatch +DPF [from March 2011] Manual 6-speed 55 MPG US (66 Imperial)
VW Passat Estate 1.6 TDI 105PS BlueMotion Manual 5-speed/6-speed 53.3 MPG US (64 Imperial)
MINI Countryman R60 Cooper D Countryman +DPF [from Sept 2010] Manual 6-speed 53.3 MPG US (64 Imperial)
MINI Clubman R55 Cooper SD Clubman +DPF [from March 2011] Manual 6-speed 53.3 MPG US (64 Imperial)
MERCEDES-BENZ A-Class A 160 CDI 185/65 15in rear wheels 3dr [2010] Manual 5-speed 53.3 MPG US (64 Imperial)
MERCEDES-BENZ C-Class Saloon C 220 CDI 16in rear wheels 205/55 Tyres ECO start- Manual 6-speed 53.3 MPG US (64 Imperial)
FIAT Bravo 1.6 MultiJet 105 ECO Manual 6-speed 53.3 MPG US (64 Imperial)
SKODA Superb/Superb Estate 1.6 CR TDI 105PS GreenLine Manual 6-speed 53.3 MPG US (64 Imperial)
MAZDA Mazda3 1.6 115PS [2010] Manual 6-speed 53.3 MPG US (64 Imperial)

HONDA Insight 1.3 IMA S 5dr [2009] Continuously Variable 53.3 MPG US (64 Imperial)

PEUGEOT 207 SW 1.6 HDi 90 bhp ENERGY SAVER TYRES [From Aug 2009] Manual 5-speed 53.3 MPG US (64 Imperial)
FORD Fusion 1.4 Duratorq TDCi 68PS [until 2011] Manual 5-speed 52.5 MPG US (63 Imperial)
VW Passat Saloon 1.6 CR TDI 105 PS BlueMotion Manual 6-speed 52.5 MPG US (63 Imperial)
VAUXHALL Agila 1.3CDTi 16v [2009] Manual 5-speed 52.5 MPG US (63 Imperial)
FIAT Grande Punto (Series 2) 1.6 16v MultiJet 120 [from July 2008] Manual 6-speed 52.5 MPG US (63 Imperial)
SUZUKI Swift Swift 5dr Manual 5-speed 52.5 MPG US (63 Imperial)
KIA Rio 1.5 CRDi Manual 5-speed 52.5 MPG US (63 Imperial)
CITROEN C5 1.6 e-HDi 112hp EGS start-stop Automatic 6-speed 50.7 MPG US (61 Imperial)
NISSAN Micra 1.5 dCi 63kW Manual 5-speed 50.7 MPG US (61 Imperial)
MERCEDES-BENZ C-Class Estate C 220 CDI 16in rear wheels ECO start-stop Manual 6-speed 50 MPG US (60 Imperial)
MERCEDES-BENZ C-Class Saloon C 220 CDI BlueEFFICIENCY 205/55 16in rear wheels Manual 6-speed 49 MPG US (59 Imperial)
SKODA Superb 1.6 CR TDI 105PS GreenLine Manual 6-speed 49 MPG US (59 Imperial)
SKODA Superb Estate 1.6 CR TDI 105PS GreenLine Manual 6-speed 48.3 MPG US (58 Imperial)
PEUGEOT 407 Saloon + SW 1.6 HDi FAP 110 bhp Energy Saver Tyres Manual 5-speed 48.3 MPG US (58 Imperial)
RENAULT Laguna Hatch 1.5 dCi 110 16in wheel Manual 6-speed 48.3 MPG US (58 Imperial)
MERCEDES-BENZ C-Class Estate C 220 CDI BlueEFFICIENCY 205/55 16in rear wheels Manual 6-speed 48.3 MPG US (58 Imperial)
MERCEDES-BENZ C-Class (204) Estate C 220 CDI BlueEFFICIENCY +DPF 225 tyres 16in wheel Manual 6-speed 47.5 MPG US (57 Imperial)
MERCEDES-BENZ C-Class (204) Saloon C 220 CDI BlueEFFICIENCY 225 tyres 16in wheels rear Manual 6-speed 47.5 MPG US (57 Imperial)
VAUXHALL Insignia 2.0CDTi 130PS 5dr Hatch Manual 6-speed 47.5 MPG US (57 Imperial)
RENAULT Laguna Sport Tourer 1.5 dCi 110 16in wheel Manual 6-speed 47.5 MPG US (57 Imperial)
TOYOTA Avensis 4dr 2.0 D-4-D T2 [2009] Manual 6-speed 45.8 MPG US (55 Imperial)
MAZDA Mazda6 2.2 5dr 129PS [2010] Manual 6-speed 45 MPG US (54 Imperial)
RENAULT Laguna Coupe 2.0 dCi 150 Tom Tom FAP Manual 6-speed 45 MPG US (54 Imperial)
FORD Mondeo 2.0 Duratorq TDCI 115PS Estate ECO [from July 2009 Manual 6-speed 45 MPG US (54 Imperial)
MERCEDES-BENZ B-Class (245) Saloon B 200 CDI noDPF 205 tyres 16in wheels rear Manual 6-speed 45 MPG US (54 Imperial)
MERCEDES-BENZ B-Class B 180 CDI 205/55 16in rear wheels [2010] Manual 6-speed 45 MPG US (54 Imperial)
SEAT Exeo 2.0 CR TDI 120PS SE Manual 6-speed 45 MPG US (54 Imperial)
SEAT Exeo ST 2.0 CR TDI 120PS SE Manual 6-speed 44 MPG US (53 Imperial)
PEUGEOT 407 Coupe 2.0 HDi FAP 163bhp Manual 6-speed 43.3 MPG US (52 Imperial)
PEUGEOT 407 SW + Saloon 2.0 HDi FAP 140bhp Manual 6-speed 41.6 MPG US (50 Imperial)
HONDA Accord 2.2 i-DTEC ES GT Saloon Manual 6-speed 41.6 MPG US (50 Imperial)

-- converted to US
 
Last edited:

tedkidd

Well-known member
Joined
May 30, 2008
Location
Rochester, NY
TDI
11 JSW
Until we stop subsidizing fossil fuel its hard to justify spending $ on efficiency.

Double the cost of fuel and people will pay attention. Be nice to have cost where it belongs, instead of constantly jacking income and real estate taxes.
 

wxman

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 26, 1999
Location
East TN, USA
TDI
Other Diesel
I wonder how much particulate matter detected around highways is actually tire particles. All that rubber goes somewhere.
The Argonne National Laboratory's GREET model estimates that 0.007 grams/mile (7 milligrams/mile) of PM2.5 are produced by a generic mid-sized car.
 

dimonic

Member
Joined
May 13, 2011
Location
Mississauga, Canada
TDI
2011 Golf Wagon
Tractors vs. Cars

I think agricultural machinery should be looked at if they want to complain about emmisions, where are the dpf's etc for them, they belch out smoke all day long ploughing, sowing seed etc and the little humble car gets all the grief.
?

Agricultural machinery in my part of the world:
a) get used intensely for about one month of each year.
b) runs on diesel.
c) is largely involved in production of plant matter, which remove CO2, and filter particulates for the rest of us.
 

dimonic

Member
Joined
May 13, 2011
Location
Mississauga, Canada
TDI
2011 Golf Wagon
You can say that again. My wife and I went to Paris for our honeymoon in late December. I can only describe driving over there as a "free for all" or loosely "organized" chaos. I took video from the top of the Arc to show everyone when we got back. I don't know how they do it, i've never experienced anything like that here, anywhere in the US.
As a UK citizen who has driven all over North America (Canada, US and Mexico), I can say with the benefit of real experience that typical NA drivers are actualy more dangerous and sloppy. In general, european drivers are faster - quicker off the mark, and more alert. They follow rules and regulations more exactly, and pay more attention when driving.

I will make an exception for Quebec, where I think they drive to european standards. That said...

In the US (and Ontario where I live), drivers are by comparison, slow off the mark (leaving me fuming behind them on advance greens), slow to give up the overtaking lanes, are very slow to accelerate in merge lanes, go down into valleys slowly (but then accelerate up the corresponding hill on the other side). Slow down to oncoming traffic in the night (and so are accelerating at the only opportunities to pass them), drive with their full-beams on at all times. The list goes on.

I believe that this is due to a combination of factors. One is the large distance between urban centres in the US (and Canada). This leads to drive times which europeans would find astronomical. For example, in the UK, people think it is a day trip from Lincoln to Cleethorpes (46 Miles). This view of distance leads North Americans to drive differently - taking a more relaxed view of the business of driving - "settling in for the long haul".

Another is the standard of enforcement. In NA, people fear the "nanny state", and resist measures intended to promote better driving habits (like relinquishing the passing lane). Some road designs actually prevent safe driving (like stop signs on merge lanes).

Yet another is the poor design of urban centres. Monotonous grids of all-way-stops lead to pretty mindless driving conditions (which also create unnecessary polution), and encourage the need for automatics, which leads to...

The predominance of automatic transmission, which reduces the amount and the quality of attention that drivers pay to the road. When driving stick, one has to look ahead and anticipate much more than when driving a slush-box.

The number of in-car distractions that are acceptable in NA cars - cell phones, chatty passengers, computers and DVDs, gps, food etc. Many of these things are outright prohibited in most states in europe.

Extremely variable driving license training and requirements - I am sure it easier to get your license in some small town far from urban centres, but you can then drive anywhere that roads go.

Now I know I have waded in pretty deep with this stuff - but what do other internationally experienced drivers think?
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I agree that American drivers are more distracted, or pay less attention. But I'd also agree there's a lot of state-by-state or regional variations in how people drive here. I know that many Americans think drivers in Massachusetts are aggressive and dangerous. I think drivers in other regions are a problem.

Usually when I drive in Europe I haven't had enough of an opportunity to relax to observe what's different. I'm still trying to adjust to either reading road signs in another language or drive on the "wrong" side of the road. And I do know that in Ireland I didn't feel particularly safe, especially at night. But driving conditoins (road size in particular) contributed to that more than drivers' habits. In Paris it was more the drivers that made me feel vulnerable. And I think you can cover some decent amounts of Geography in Europe: I drove from Reading to Colchester and back to Heathrow in less than a day, and all the way across Ireland in a long afternoon. But maybe I was applying my American perspective to UK roads.

I'm not sure what you were getting as it relates to this thread, but I would imagine that most Americans would find the high FE cars listed here to be penalty boxes. They would find them cramped, noisy, and not comfortable enough. Probably not true for most TDIClub members, however.
 

3516ACERT

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Location
Maryland
TDI
2010 JSW
Now I know I have waded in pretty deep with this stuff - but what do other internationally experienced drivers think?
I think the Irish can drive through the eye of a needle, because Irish roads are about 2.0001 car widths across.

I think Italian cab drivers are certifiably insane and determined to make their passengers poop in their pants.

I think American drivers have an overdeveloped sense of entitlement and can't understand why they are not allowed two lanes per vehicle when turning.

I can handle those that are slow to accelerate off the stop, I am tolerant of those that talk on the phone while drifting across the line, I smile when I see an elderly man wearing a hat driving a Buick his left turn signal on for miles and miles while going too slow in the left lane. All that is fine.

It really chaps my hide when some arsewhole turns left by first sweeping towards the right, making a question mark out of the left turn. As a motorcyle driver, I AM OFTEN in mortal peril because I think I have room to pass until the car suddenly and unexpectedly veers to the right with the left blinker on.

My fondest driving experiences were in Germany, of course.
 

oxford_guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Location
Ohio
TDI
Golf '11
I would imagine that most Americans would find the high FE cars listed here to be penalty boxes. They would find them cramped, noisy, and not comfortable enough. Probably not true for most TDIClub members, however.
Not everything in that list has a 3 cylinder engine.

I think people are exaggerating.

Is a BlueMotion Passat a "penalty box?, or simply a vehicle that's a bit slower and quite a bit more efficient than the typical sedan?
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Surprisingly, some would. Although someone like me would find the Passat bigger than I'd want as a daily driver, others would find it an unacceptable step down in size from their Crown Vic, Lexus LS, Caddy. And there are many Americans who are unwilling to give up their Tahoe, Suburban, or Expedition.

I happened to look at a Yaris yesterday (not for me to buy), and was surprised how much it appeared to be built to a price. I think I would find that car a penalty box, just like others would find the much nicer cars on this list penalty boxes.
 

MikeMars

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Location
UK
TDI
Vento 1.9 TDi (retired), A4 1.9 TDi (rear end collision), VW Passat 1.9 TDi (retired), Audi A2 1.4 TDi
Nor is a 3-cyl engine necessarily bad. For example, an Audi A2, kerb weight is 1000kg (without the heavier options), and the 3 cyl TDi PD engine has 75 or 90hp as default (can be remapped to 105/120). That gives you a lot more 'go' than a lot of other cars when you look at the power-to-weight ratio.

The 3-cyl is most obvious when at idle (feels a bit like a heartbeat through the steeringwheel), once you're moving it's smooth.

The inside of the A2 is really nice, a lot nicer than the crappy Neon I drove in the states.
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Reviewers pretty much universally didn't like the A2. I thought it was really cool, but they found it slow, loud, hard riding, and expensive. Disappointing.
 

MikeMars

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Location
UK
TDI
Vento 1.9 TDi (retired), A4 1.9 TDi (rear end collision), VW Passat 1.9 TDi (retired), Audi A2 1.4 TDi
Reviewers pretty much universally didn't like the A2. I thought it was really cool, but they found it slow, loud, hard riding, and expensive. Disappointing.
Slow I'd disagree with, in fact I'd describe it as lively (apart from the 1.4 petrol which was lifeless. But what idiot drives a petrol when there is a TDI available?? :) ).

Well, hard riding I'd have to agree with, the suspension is like rock, and due to it's light weight, hitting a pothole / speedbump is a painful experience. I was sort-of surprised to find that it had a suspension at all, from the feel of it, I was expecting to see everything welded into a block. The problem is that the springs & dampers are so strong compared to the weight of the car that they just don't flex.

The German roads are incredibly smooth, no potholes are permitted. It probably didn't occur to them that we'd have to drive it on our terrible UK roads.

Loud... well, I don't know here. Aluminium does transmit sound rather well, but once the vehicle is moving the TDI engine note is quite enjoyable, and I don't find it loud myself. Perhaps they are referring to the suspension which responds with a huge CRASH/THUD* whenever you hit potholes/speedbumps (followed by the noise of your spine being shattered).

Expensive... well, I think this is a matter of perception. It's a little cheaper than the equivalent spec car from elsewhere in the range, but because it is physically smaller, people think it should be really cheap. It was very expensive to manufacture due to the aluminium body. I find it to be extremely nice inside, better than the golf/vento, vastly better than the Polo/Lupo, and at the same level as the A4 / Passat.




* I'm not kidding here. It really does go CRASH/THUD. If anyone wanted to buy one I'd have to show them this first, just so that they're prepared for it. Having said that, running the tyres at 40psi instead of 32psi probably doesn't help. Apart from that, it's a really great car, and I love it more than any car I've ever owned before.
 
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oxford_guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Location
Ohio
TDI
Golf '11
Surprisingly, some would. Although someone like me would find the Passat bigger than I'd want as a daily driver, others would find it an unacceptable step down in size from their Crown Vic, Lexus LS, Caddy. And there are many Americans who are unwilling to give up their Tahoe, Suburban, or Expedition.
But those people aren't everyone. Sure, some think they need a yacht, but do most of us have one?
I happened to look at a Yaris yesterday (not for me to buy), and was surprised how much it appeared to be built to a price. I think I would find that car a penalty box, just like others would find the much nicer cars on this list penalty boxes.
The Yaris is hardly in the same league as the Bluemotion Passat, eh?

I wouldn't want to drive a Yaris.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
But those people aren't everyone. Sure, some think they need a yacht, but do most of us have one?
Look around. Check the ratio of SUVs/pickups compared to small sedans. Apparently we aren't everyone. There are about a dozen houses on my block, typical Boston bedroom community. The smallest car I can think of at those houses (and I walk a lot so I know what's here) is the guy across the street who has an old Saab 9000. A small car here is a Toyota Highlander. Toyota Tundra (have you seen how big that thing is), Mercedes GL, Suburbans, Cherokees, those are everyone around here.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
There are bazillions of Yarises on the roads in Canada. For some reason the Americans don't like them, but there are lots of them here. (On the other hand, Americans buy Priuses, and Canadians for the most part, don't.)

Female friend :) has one and it has been decent. The center-mounted gauges are not to my liking (and my understanding is that the next-generation Yaris ditches those for a more traditional layout). I can even fit in the back seat, although that's dependent on whoever is in front not sliding the front seat all the way back. You can not get luxury appointments on those cars - no leather seats, no navigation system, etc. - and some of the patterns in the fabric on some models are a tad "immature", shall we say.

The popular cars in Canada are generally one size class smaller than the popular cars in the USA, and I think a greater percentage of Canadians grasp the concept that "luxury" is different from "big" - i.e. you can have a compact luxury car. It seems that to many Americans, "compact" and "luxury" are mutually exclusive.
 

MikeMars

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Location
UK
TDI
Vento 1.9 TDi (retired), A4 1.9 TDi (rear end collision), VW Passat 1.9 TDi (retired), Audi A2 1.4 TDi
...
The popular cars in Canada are generally one size class smaller than the popular cars in the USA, and I think a greater percentage of Canadians grasp the concept that "luxury" is different from "big" - i.e. you can have a compact luxury car. It seems that to many Americans, "compact" and "luxury" are mutually exclusive.
Yes. I hate seeing the american phrase 'econobox' to describe a car (or for that matter 'penalty box'). It implies an inherent failure to understand that bigger isn't always better.
 

German_1er_diesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Location
Ratzeburg
TDI
BMW 118d
Reviewers pretty much universally didn't like the A2. I thought it was really cool, but they found it slow, loud, hard riding, and expensive. Disappointing.
Weird... apart from the "expensive" part, I remember the press reviews of the A2 to be mostly very positive. It was the classic journalist darling, with not much general public success.
 
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