23N5 software update thread to address turbo failures

Don't want to distract but, why would regen's hurt mpg? I thought we didn't have that problem because we use Adblue instead.

carlrx7 said:

Don't want to distract but, why would regen's hurt mpg? I thought we didn't have that problem because we use Adblue instead.

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Regens burn soot out of the DPF with heat created from post-injection of fuel. Because that fuel does not burn in the engine to produce power, it increases fuel consumption per mile (marginally).

DEF/AdBlue is completely separate from DPF regenerating functions. DEF is injected after the DPF to neutralize NOx emissions.

Another video

I shot another quick video of the pre update warmup. There's a brief "blowtorch " effect evident about 2 minutes in. We will see what it looks like post update. I'm in the dealers service lounge now and will take a post update video tomorrow morning.

http://youtu.be/q3CAJUvr9kg

ABS said:

I shot another quick video of the pre update warmup. There's a brief "blowtorch " effect evident. We will see what it looks like post update. I'm in the dealers service lounge now and will take a post update video tomorrow morning.

http://youtu.be/q3CAJUvr9kg

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That's very different from how the 2012 behaves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay4S8pxjiLs

VeeDubTDI said:

That's very different from how the 2012 behaves.

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It is indeed...

On a side note, based on the street view in the first segment, it doesn't look like VA DOT has done any road maintenance since I lived out there... the roads look just as bad as Minnesota's

ABS said:

There's a brief "blowtorch " effect evident about 2 minutes in. We will see what it looks like post update.

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It's still there on my car. Up over 1000 degrees for about 20 or 30 seconds then right back down to 600 or so.

PassatSE4me said:

It's still there on my car. Up over 1000 degrees for about 20 or 30 seconds then right back down to 600 or so.

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I'll be curious if there is a change in requested boost pressure as well. Have you noticed any change in that?

ABS said:

I'll be curious if there is a change in requested boost pressure as well. Have you noticed any change in that?

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I didn't have a SG until after the update, so I don't know what boost was. I'll have to pay attention to that number now that you mention it. I've been too busy watching the EGT and DPF.

What were your cold boost numbers before?

It's really hard to nail down cold boost numbers because it can fluctuate so rapidly with very small changes in throttle position.

kydsid said:

Anyone in the deep south got the letter yet? I haven't.

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I never received a letter, but went into dealer's online scheduling system and an option was available for "Software Update" service. Made an appointment, went in, got it updated within 55 minutes, and rushed out to work. No questions asked.

Ft. Worth, TX. Just had mine updated, no letter received. Took 1 hour.
I'll wait for several cold-start cycles before I add my observations.

(Autobahn VW continues to impress me with their service. Great SA, very candid, willing to discuss. Went in for the update, drove out with a freshly washed/vacuumed car, in 40f temps)

VeeDubTDI said:

It's really hard to nail down cold boost numbers because it can fluctuate so rapidly with very small changes in throttle position.

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I get that. I was thinking more along the lines of the boost being limited now, like they say it's supposed to be. Just wondering what that number might be...

VeeDubTDI said:

It's really hard to nail down cold boost numbers because it can fluctuate so rapidly with very small changes in throttle position.

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VeeDub, I agree they do change rapidly. I have been watching for peak. Talking to the tech after my update tonight, he mentioned, like others here, that the update will reduce the boost request during the warm up cycle. I've seen boost request pressures north of 16psi in third great under 2000 rpm. I think you can see that in my videos. It's certainly subjective, but my driving style is relatively consistent so perhaps we may see a reduction in the video tomorrow.

Here's the SG II coding I am using for the request pressure.
Boost request pressure - psi
TXD - 07DF0170
RXF - 054186700000
RXD - 4810
MTH - 00910BB8FF75 (75 got me to 0.0 at idle here, about 1400ft above sea level)
NAM - BSt

Hopefully I have the coding right... I believe the only difference is the RXD for actual is 3810 and requested is 4810.

As a side note he also indicated the update "changes the heating cycle for the AdBlue system increasing both cycle intervals and duration". He had run before I could get more clarification. I wanted to get more info, as they updated that last year after my adblue system froze up...

Yeah the AdBlue heating strategy was updated last year when peoples' cars were freezing up during the polar vortices. That update wasn't rolled out to all owners - only to people who had an issue, but it will now be included in 23N5. So you shouldn't have to worry about frozen AdBlue on the highway in -20F temps anymore.

Hypermile said:

High idle doesn't always mean regen. Was your temp needle in the middle when this happened? I know the car high idles when the heater is on and the car has not reached operating temp to allow the 500W aux heater to warm the cabin.

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The high idle is occurring after the engine is warmed up. I haven't noticed a higher idle on a cold engine with any heat settings or when I have the heated seats on. It only occurs when I (assume) the DPF regen is occurring, because when I roll down the window, I can hear the engine fan running at high speed. Temp's have been moderate, in the 40's most mornings, but today it's in the teen's - can't wait to see the crappy mpg's on my commute!

BTW - I didn't receive the letter either. Shortly after learning about this update, I had already scheduled my 10k service and it was done without me asking about it. Funny, the service form states "..customer requested software update to be performed..".

Post Update Video

Good Morning,

As promised here's a video of the post 23N5 Software update. Please forgive me in advance for the video, I was pre-caffinated when I started the video, then changed orientation on my phone a few seconds in and I'm unable to edit it to correct the orientation. Its easier to watch on a mobile device, as you can adjust orientation manually... Again my apologies.

Based on this first cold start after the update, boost request has definitely dropped. The highest I saw this morning during the warm up routine was in the 10-11 psi range, versus north of 16 in the last two videos (and my daily observations). In addition EGT seems to be 2-300 degrees lower during the routine. We see a very small jump into the low 1,000's, but not up over 1,300 like I have seen in the past.

[FONT=&quot]http://youtu.be/tACBhGin6nM[/FONT]

Went in at 40,500 miles yesterday and they updated my software, which I have not received a notice of either. Boost does seem to be down but engine smoother from a cold start at 6 F this AM. My mileage was down about 5 mpg on my way into work as well according to the computer.

ABS said:

Good Morning,

As promised here's a video of the post 23N5 Software update. Please forgive me in advance for the video, I was pre-caffinated when I started the video, then changed orientation on my phone a few seconds in and I'm unable to edit it to correct the orientation. Its easier to watch on a mobile device, as you can adjust orientation manually... Again my apologies.

Based on this first cold start after the update, boost request has definitely dropped. The highest I saw this morning during the warm up routine was in the 10-11 psi range, versus north of 16 in the last two videos (and my daily observations). In addition EGT seems to be 2-300 degrees lower during the routine. We see a very small jump into the low 1,000's, but not up over 1,300 like I have seen in the past.

[FONT=&quot]http://youtu.be/tACBhGin6nM[/FONT]

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Great video even though it's sideways. It looks like the revision has a target EGT of around 1100F rather than the previous 1300F, with a corresponding decrease in boost pressure. More videos will be able to confirm.

My car received the 23N5 update after I drove to the dealer and requested it. I have yet to get a letter about it.

Pre-23N5 I observed the following after mildly driving in second gear to warm the engine coolant temperature to approximately 125*F, which is when the needle on the dash begins to move. I set cruise control to 30 MPH in third gear, and let the car cruise on a level section of road in my neighborhood while the warm-up routine occurred. Ambient temperature was approximately 40*F.

Pre-turbo EGT: ~1100*F
Boost: 5-6 PSI
Warm-Up Cutoff: 145*F Coolant Temperature

Once the warm-up ended, numbers immediately normalized to ~600*F EGT and ~2-3 PSI under the same conditions.


The next day, I performed exactly the same experiment under the same conditions (except the ambient temperature was ~30*F this time) with the 23N5 update applied to my Passat.

Pre-Turbo EGT: ~1100*F
Boost: 5-6 PSI
Warm-Up Cutoff: 155*F Coolant temperature.

The only difference I spotted with this experiment is the different warm-up cutoff. I suspect, though, that this is the due to the sub-freezing ambient temperature. Since this experiment, I have driven the car in temperatures just barely above freezing and observed the usual 145*F coolant temperature cutoff. Pre-23N5, I found the car would ignore the 145*F cutoff on occasion as well, sometimes waiting until ~160*F to stop if ambient temperatures were frigid.

Basically, I haven't been able to detect any changes thus far. But, I don't push my car during the routine. Perhaps there is a new boost limit that has been put into place but I just haven't reached it yet since I don't like to let boost head north of 10PSI during warm-up. Also, perhaps, the warm-up routine won't start until a higher minimum coolant temperature (pre-23N5, I found it would start at a minimum of 90*F coolant temperature IIRC) to allow the oil to warm up and thin a bit, providing better turbo lubrication for those who "just jump in and go." If I discover a new minimum coolant temperature requirement for the warm-up, I will post it here.

Lastly, I have noticed no stumbling post-update, but never had any before it either. As far as regeneration, it's been 215 miles since my car's last regen, and it hasn't started one yet. I expect to see one once that number gets close to 300 miles, nothing premature.

Summed up, with my driving routine I have noticed no change in warm-up behavior with the 23N5 update for my 2014 6MT.

TurboDieselPoint

TDI Jim said:

My mileage was down about 5 mpg on my way into work as well according to the computer.

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Can anyone else confirm an MPG loss...?

Checked the local VW here online service and it showed up for mine. Appt. next Friday morning.

VeeDubTDI said:

Great video even though it's sideways. It looks like the revision has a target EGT of around 1100F rather than the previous 1300F, with a corresponding decrease in boost pressure. More videos will be able to confirm.

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Thanks, I'll try to fix that once I get home and can work from my Mac... Just wasn't going to happen with my phone... I am going to log a few more each day, just to see if it is consistent. I agree, it appears the targets were reduced by a decent margin. I too am curious to see what others experience as we gather more data in the thread.

psd1 said:

Can anyone else confirm an MPG loss...?

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I cant confirm that. We've had insane winds here nearly all week. I was battling 30-45mph head/quartering into winds all the way to work today. So it wasn't a good day to consider that effect. I think we'll have to take a wait and see approach based on averages by tank. After a few tanks, I will compare those tanks against my pre-update economy on Fuelly. That will give a better gauge than single trips would. In my mind, there are too many variables to consider on a single trip.

VeeDubTDI said:

Great video even though it's sideways. It looks like the revision has a target EGT of around 1100F rather than the previous 1300F, with a corresponding decrease in boost pressure. More videos will be able to confirm.

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I also used to think that warmup EGTs were lower after the update, but not anymore.
This week I've had a few instances of EGTs in the 1320 range, which is the same as before the update.
.
As others have mentioned, the "stumbling" is much improved, hardly notice it now.
.
In terms of fuel mileage, it is hard to compare since its gotten so cold lately, but there doesn't seem to be any big difference.

ABS said:

Good Morning,

As promised here's a video of the post 23N5 Software update. Please forgive me in advance for the video, I was pre-caffinated when I started the video, then changed orientation on my phone a few seconds in and I'm unable to edit it to correct the orientation. Its easier to watch on a mobile device, as you can adjust orientation manually... Again my apologies.

Based on this first cold start after the update, boost request has definitely dropped. The highest I saw this morning during the warm up routine was in the 10-11 psi range, versus north of 16 in the last two videos (and my daily observations). In addition EGT seems to be 2-300 degrees lower during the routine. We see a very small jump into the low 1,000's, but not up over 1,300 like I have seen in the past.

[FONT=&quot]http://youtu.be/tACBhGin6nM[/FONT]

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Great video! With your car, the minimum coolant temperature to activate the warm-up "blowtorch" routine seems to be 100*F now. I will check if my 6MT with the 23N5 update has this change as well. Thus far with the new update, I haven't tried shifting into third until the temperature gauge starts to move (125*F), but before 23N5 I observed the "blowtorch" could occur well under 100*F coolant temperature. Hopefully it'll wait a while longer for the oil to heat up now.

TurboDieselPoint

VeeDubTDI said:

Yeah the AdBlue heating strategy was updated last year when peoples' cars were freezing up during the polar vortices. That update wasn't rolled out to all owners - only to people who had an issue, but it will now be included in 23N5. So you shouldn't have to worry about frozen AdBlue on the highway in -20F temps anymore.

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Thanks for confirming this! Even though I never had the Adblue freezing issue, I hoped they would include this with the 23N5 update just for preventative maintenance.

23N5 should include any and all previous software updates that were made.

Today I discovered an interesting change that I assume was the result of 23N5.

I started my garaged Passat for the first time today, and headed out to run an errand. I shifted into 3rd when the coolant was at 90*F and set the cruise at 30. Warm-up routine didn't start. I expected it to initiate when the coolant reached 100*F, but it didn't. In fact, it never started at all! No blowtorch! Something I've never seen before!

The ambient temperature was about 50*F, which I think was key. Maybe, if the ambient temperature is above a certain temperature, the 23N5 update cuts out the warm-up routine altogether.

Pre-23N5, it seemed my car would always do the "blowtorch" thing after a cold start, even when the ambient temps were warmer. Now, it seems to only do it around freezing and below.

Anyone else observe this?

TurboDieselPoint

TurboDieselPoint said:

Today I discovered an interesting change that I assume was the result of 23N5.

I started my garaged Passat for the first time today, and headed out to run an errand. I shifted into 3rd when the coolant was at 90*F and set the cruise at 30. Warm-up routine didn't start. I expected it to initiate when the coolant reached 100*F, but it didn't. In fact, it never started at all! No blowtorch! Something I've never seen before!

The ambient temperature was about 50*F, which I think was key. Maybe, if the ambient temperature is above a certain temperature, the 23N5 update cuts out the warm-up routine altogether.

Pre-23N5, it seemed my car would always do the "blowtorch" thing after a cold start, even when the ambient temps were warmer. Now, it seems to only do it around freezing and below.

Anyone else observe this?

TurboDieselPoint

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Yes, and I wish I would have gotten it on video . I ended up stranded in the town I work in yesterday due to snow and winds blowing 45-60 mph creating blizzard conditions and resulting in every highway (Fed, State and County) being closed and barricaded. When winter decides to get ugly around here, it gets really ugly!

Anyway, there is a small hotel here that has garages attached to each room and I was able to park the passat inside last night. When I started up this morning the ambient temp was 53*F in the garage and the water temp was also 53*F when I started the car. Like you, I shifted into 3rd when the water temp was just under 100*F (Of Note, outside ambient temps were -2*F) and I drove until I reached 185*F on the water temp before I had to park in the lot, and did not see the warm up routine start, nor did I see the "reduced" blowtorch effect I saw yesterday after the update.

I wasnt expecting to be in a position to look for this until sometime in the spring, as I my brides ride and my BMW are in our garage, so I park outside year round. I am afraid it may be a few months before I have the opportunity to look for it again...

I'll be curious to see if those of you in warmer states start seeing this on a routine basis.

ABS said:

It is indeed...

On a side note, based on the street view in the first segment, it doesn't look like VA DOT has done any road maintenance since I lived out there... the roads look just as bad as Minnesota's

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Yep.I grew up in Virginia. Notice the crappy roads every time I visit.

Basically whenever an election looks close the politicians promise to lower gas tax, or drop those "unnecessary registration taxes!"

Then about 20% of the idiots go "hell yeah, gyuk gyuk!" And vote for them.

So you get cheaper gas and pay for it (probably more) with all the suspension repairs and extra sets of tires you pay for when your radial belts start coming loose at 40,000 miles instead of 60,000.

Smart.

It's all because the oil is too think while is still cold, meaning HTHS is more than 3.8 cP, just because it's last long oil. All these sacrifice is for environment and less oil interval.
Stupid, same as gasoline with ethanol.