High aluminum in oil analysis

Nativefx · Feb 21, 2014

Okay I posted my results in the "fuels & lubricants" but I am at 5K on the current oil in the car and thinking I'm going to change it and sent out for another analysis (I'm currently at 68.5K miles). I read drivebywires post regarding the waste of changing oil in our TDI's early and so all my earlier OCI have been at the recommended 10K intervals. The results I posted have me concerned though. Anyone else do any oil analysis with similar results? Maybe I just need to change oils? Any input would be appreciated.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4450332&postcount=3086

MichaelB · Feb 21, 2014

Nativefx said:
Okay I posted my results in the "fuels & lubricants" but I am at 5K on the current oil in the car and thinking I'm going to change it and sent out for another analysis (I'm currently at 68.5K miles). I read drivebywires post regarding the waste of changing oil in our TDI's early and so all my earlier OCI have been at the recommended 10K intervals. The results I posted have me concerned though. Anyone else do any oil analysis with similar results? Maybe I just need to change oils? Any input would be appreciated.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4450332&postcount=3086

I would ask them to recheck the sample or supply them with another in 2k. When I dealt with industrial oil and coolant sampling where i worked (GKN Sinter Metals) sometimes there were erroneous levels in the testing and a retest either confirmed the reading and many times it was just a mistake made by the lab tech.

Nativefx · Feb 21, 2014

MichaelB said:
I would ask them to recheck the sample or supply them with another in 2k. When I dealt with industrial oil and coolant sampling where i worked (GKN Sinter Metals) sometimes there were erroneous levels in the testing and a retest either confirmed the reading and many times it was just a mistake made by the lab tech.

I could see the possibility of a mistake being done on one or the other, but both of these reports were on the same oil but taken at different intervals (5k & 7.5K) and roughly a month apart. Just to clarify, the samples were NOT submitted at the same time.

psd1 · Feb 21, 2014

You need to post this at BobistheOilGuy.com Those guys know their stuff!

Nativefx · Feb 21, 2014

psd1 said:
You need to post this at BobistheOilGuy.com Those guys know their stuff!

Thanks, I've already posted over there as well. Some of them suggested I make sure and post in a TDI forum to see if others experienced the same thing or what other oils people are running in case the Liquimoly just doesn't seem to be a good fit.

psd1 · Feb 21, 2014

Nativefx said:
Thanks, I've already posted over there as well. Some of them suggested I make sure and post in a TDI forum to see if others experienced the same thing or what other oils people are running in case the Liquimoly just doesn't seem to be a good fit.

Man those guys are into oil over there. I wish you luck, please keep the group updated as you are one of the higher mileage NMS Passat's around.

MichaelB · Feb 21, 2014

Nativefx said:
I could see the possibility of a mistake being done on one or the other, but both of these reports were on the same oil but taken at different intervals (5k & 7.5K) and roughly a month apart. Just to clarify, the samples were NOT submitted at the same time.

OK I didn't understand that there were two samples confirming each other. Then I would change brands of oil now and resubmit in 5k. If that sample returns the same results there is something wrong with your engine beyond the OCI and not oil related.

detroitmike · Feb 21, 2014

You call that high aluminum? Look at this.

This was a bottom drain sample. I understand you can get a more accurate sample from the top with something like this...

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/vacuum-pump.php

Im not concerned about the "elevated" Al in my oil analysis. Reason being, I dont know how Blackstone generates their "universal averages". Are these just for the CKRA engines in the Passats or is this average for all 2.0L TDI's that they have tested no matter what the mileage.

Also, there is this one....we have an Aluminum Oil Pan....when you think about it, 60 parts per million is pretty small.

Id be more concerned about Chromium and Iron.

One more thing.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/scare-tactic

If your engine is perfectly healthy....why would you send another sample in 5000 miles?

MichaelB · Feb 21, 2014

detroitmike said:
You call that high aluminum? Look at this.

This was a bottom drain sample. I understand you can get a more accurate sample from the top with something like this...

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/vacuum-pump.php

Im not concerned about the "elevated" Al in my oil analysis. Reason being, I dont know how Blackstone generates their "universal averages". Are these just for the CKRA engines in the Passats or is this average for all 2.0L TDI's that they have tested no matter what the mileage.

Also, there is this one....we have an Aluminum Oil Pan....when you think about it, 60 parts per million is pretty small.

Id be more concerned about Chromium and Iron.

One more thing.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/scare-tactic

If your engine is perfectly healthy....why would you send another sample in 5000 miles?

OK that makes some sense of the situation. How many oil analysis samples from CKRA engines do we have to compare the results with? (Mine has not been tested as I only have 7k miles on it) How many reports does Terry at Blackstone Labs have to make his call on this? Perplexing at times isn't it?

detroitmike · Feb 21, 2014

I agree they should be differentiating between different versions of the VW 2.0 TDI. But overall I think this is a good engine. Significantly more so than previous versions...CBEA CJAA...trust me. I owned a 12 Jetta for 60K...what a pile of junk. Sorry Jetta owners. Worst car I ever owned for multiple reasons. I have a list.

Now on the other hand...this Passat is probably the best car I have ever owned. Go figure.

Back to the OP...I'd be interested in what Oil Bob has to say. Although most of those guys aren't driving Passats but definitely have an opinion.

Fixmy59bug · Feb 21, 2014

Now that I look back at my 10k sample, it appears the aluminum was a little high as well. But it appears to be a trend with the CKRA.

I'm not going to panic until further analysis.

If the aluminum numbers were worry some I am sure they would have said something.

30_Yr_Dsl_Veteran · Feb 21, 2014

It does not matter if you have "high" AL or not, as far as the need to change the oil goes - PERIOD!!! All particles of a significant size WILL be removed by your oil filter. Any remaining particles will be too small to be of consequence.

MichaelB · Feb 21, 2014

psd1 said:
You need to post this at BobistheOilGuy.com Those guys know their stuff!

Some do but most don't, they just talk to be heard. Many times the info on BITOG is purely anecdotal just a bunch of guys talkin' cool oil stuff (like teenagers would)and some of them are still relating to "Your Father Oldsmobile" when it comes to oil and how it relates to an engine. Don't use their threads as gospel!

detroitmike · Feb 21, 2014

this would be a good thread to document wear metal trends in the CKRA.

i just did my 40k this morning and was going to get a sample but i couldnt find my blackstone sample jars.

psd1 · Feb 21, 2014

MichaelB said:
Some do but most don't, they just talk to be heard. Many times the info on BITOG is purely anecdotal just a bunch of guys talkin' cool oil stuff (like teenagers would)and some of them are still relating to "Your Father Oldsmobile" when it comes to oil and how it relates to an engine. Don't use their threads as gospel!

Of course, but doesn't that go with any internet chat board? Same thing occurs here!

detroitmike said:
this would be a good thread to document wear metal trends in the CKRA.

I nominate this for a sticky!

mountain-valleymotors · Feb 21, 2014

My aluminum was higher than yours at my last oil change. The car had only 10k miles on it and the oil had 5k miles. I am getting ready to change it again at 15k miles so we will see if what it is now. There have been numerous reports of high aluminum on these Passats.

Sandhopper · Feb 21, 2014

Mine topped out at 68 ppm @ 20k and have been trending downward in the last two samples. The last sample I took had ~5500 miles on it and the Al was 37 ppm. After seeing a 117, I am feeling a little better about my numbers.

http://www.blackstone-labs.net/(53c1nb55ykeiveaefv4prl55)/oilreports.aspx?cid=F96906

tdiatlast · Feb 21, 2014

My aluminum numbers:
10k miles: 62
25k miles, 5k on the oil: 70
28k miles, 8k on the oil: 82
35.5k miles, 7.5k on the oil: 100
38.7k miles, 10.5k on the oil: 137k

I haven't reported the last UOA to my dealer. So far, they're intrigued, but aren't willing to pursue it further. (My turbo has been "singing" since 7k miles...)

Ski in NC · Feb 21, 2014

Al can come from lots of places: Charge air cooler, DPF substrate (I think it has Al2O3 in the substrate) coming through egr, the other exh aftertreatment cats or whatever, any sloughing off gets reingested through lp egr.

Don't assume high Al is coming from the engine eating itself- Cr (ring facing) is near nil, Fe is nice and low- those support a happy engine.

As others have posted, Al seems to trend high on these.

TurboDieselPoint · Feb 21, 2014

tdiatlast said:
My aluminum numbers:
10k miles: 62
25k miles, 5k on the oil: 70
28k miles, 8k on the oil: 82
35.5k miles, 7.5k on the oil: 100
38.7k miles, 10.5k on the oil: 137k

I haven't reported the last UOA to my dealer. So far, they're intrigued, but aren't willing to pursue it further. (My turbo has been "singing" since 7k miles...)

Sorry to derail the topic, but, I notice you have mentioned many times that your turbo "sings," and I was wondering what exactly you meant by that. Can you hear it in the cabin with the windows up and climate control and radio off? Or just if you drive around with the window down? Does it sound like the whistle of a normal turbo, or more like a screech of a failing turbo?

MichaelB · Feb 22, 2014

psd1 said:
Of course, but doesn't that go with any internet chat board? Same thing occurs here!I nominate this for a sticky!

That is why I woild not recommend them to analyze my oil sample. We have Bob Fout and Too Slick here to help us (they both post on BITOG) I think our group has a lot more fact based info than BITOG. This is only my 2 cents.

MichaelB · Feb 22, 2014

TurboDieselPoint said:
Sorry to derail the topic, but, I notice you have mentioned many times that your turbo "sings," and I was wondering what exactly you meant by that. Can you hear it in the cabin with the windows up and climate control and radio off? Or just if you drive around with the window down? Does it sound like the whistle of a normal turbo, or more like a screech of a failing turbo?

This thread is about oil analysis not turbo whine please stay with the topic at hand.

pparks1 · Feb 22, 2014

detroitmike said:
Im not concerned about the "elevated" Al in my oil analysis. Reason being, I dont know how Blackstone generates their "universal averages". Are these just for the CKRA engines in the Passats or is this average for all 2.0L TDI's that they have tested no matter what the mileage.

I also have to wonder just how many cars made up their "average". I have to believe that the majority of car owners out there aren't getting their used oil tested. I don't know a single person who has paid for this, and I work for an automotive company...so I work with car guys.

kydsid · Feb 22, 2014

My 10k and 20k analysis had less than 30 ppm Al. Not had 30,40 or 50 tested.

psd1 · Feb 22, 2014

pparks1 said:
I also have to wonder just how many cars made up their "average". I have to believe that the majority of car owners out there aren't getting their used oil tested. I don't know a single person who has paid for this, and I work for an automotive company...so I work with car guys.

How do people get UOA's for free?

ScottySK · Feb 22, 2014

psd1 said:
How do people get UOA's for free?

They don't. He means he doesn't know anyone doing UOA's.

psd1 · Feb 22, 2014

ScottySK said:
They don't. He means he doesn't know anyone doing UOA's.

Interesting, considering we have a group of people in this thread that have provided UOA results.

ScottySK · Feb 22, 2014

psd1 said:
Interesting, considering we have a group of people in this thread that have provided UOA results.

What he's getting at is what sample size is Blackstone using to create their "average"? If they've had a dozen new Passat's oil analyzed, it is such a small sample size that creating an average to use to alert owners saying that it is high level of AL isn't really relevant data to be basing their observations from.

Softrockrenegade · Feb 22, 2014

Tdilast, is that a typo or did your oil really have 137,000 ppm of Al in it ?

dzcad90 · Feb 22, 2014

13.7% Al?

That would be some serious problems...

High aluminum in oil analysis

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