Who else is having AdBlue issues?

dubStrom said:

Thanks. Good to know. I do have 4 bottles ready to add when the warning light shows up.

Click to expand...

My adblue usage is about 1.75 gallons per 10,000 miles. Consistent for the first two services. Now at almost 26K. Why buy so many kruze bottles? Just get the Peak 2.5 gallon bulk at your favorite store and refill the kruze bottle. The top unscrews easily enough, and it helps you to accurately gauge what goes into the tank. Plus no spills in the car, although you might dribble a little when refilling! Why wait for the warning light? Just refill when servicing and don't worry about it. Adblue consumption is so minute, that I figure a full tank would last well over 20K miles.

Just a follow up from my 30k service.
When I mentioned that I had had the 200 mile warning pop up for 8 minutes, the dealer was adamant that they would look at the system and that VW is very aware of the issue and working fast to find a solution. They were not sure if it would be a software update that would be more aware of the freezing and compare different sampling rates or maybe a TSB or recall and completely change something in the tank.
Anyways they are aware and working on it, but if you have had a glitch make sure you bring it in and get it documented, they are forwarding the info to VW so the more info they get the better the solution.

FYI when scanned mine showed no faults.

I had the same issue last Tuesday (1/7)while driving from Chicago to St. Louis. I made it all the way down to Litchfield,IL before my CEL and Ad Blue light with the wrench lights came on. The Ad Blue indicated that I only had 200 miles until no start. The temperature when I left was -13F and warmed up to -4F by the time I got to St. Louis. Luckily, I was able to get a next day appointment at a local dealer in O'Fallon. I let the car sit overnight in the hotel garage and the Ad a Blue light cleared but the CEL remained on. The dealer fount the p204f00 code which indicated an Ad Blue fault. The code was cleared and has remained off. I am thinking that the heaters on the Ad Blue system were not able to keep up with the extremely low temps and that the DEF froze during the drive down. I guess we will see if the system has any additional issues when the next "polar vortex" drops down.

What if a small pad-style heater was placed against the side of the adblue tank and wired to the car's 12V system?
Like this one? The 100W version?
https://www.wolverineheater.com/product-p/fh.htm

I guess this is the Passat's version of intercooler icing.

I guess I'm lucky as I haven't had any warning lights or drivability issues even at -15F, and my car sits outside 24/7.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

I guess this is the Passat's version of intercooler icing.

Click to expand...

So far, the damage potential seems to be much lower in this case though.

It would seem that the in-tank adblue heater is largish in size and not just a little pigtail or rod type heater. See #4 in drawing:



But with the tank basically uninsulated on its sides and bottom, as well as the urea feed line, I can see how it would freeze up or turn slushy given its exposed mounting. Maybe having the adblue tank in the spare tire well ala Chevy Cruze diesel is beneficial. Wonder if they are having similar issues?
According to the electrical schematics, there are 3 heaters: a pump heater, a line heater, a tank heater, fed by a 30 A fuse SB-8 (under hood). I bet those parts labeled #18, which are 2-pole flat contact housings make #17 the "in-line" heater? I wonder how warm/hot it actually get the urea since it must be able to be sprayed into the exhaust system in order to vaporize and thermally decompose into ammonia to react with the NOx in the SCR. To reduce NOx in power generation emissions, the urea is injected into a 700*F hot air stream to turn it into ammonia. I know that the exhaust gas stream in our cars is not always over 700F, especially when coasting downhill.

vw_norm said:

I know that the exhaust gas stream in our cars is not always over 700F, especially when coasting downhill.

Click to expand...

Real question is, does the car need urea injection when coasting downhill? It's plausible that the engine is designed to run without AdBlue under a certain load, so no AdBlue is used in those conditions.

#4 really doesn't look like a heater that I've seen, looks more like just a pump. What's its official name? Makes me wonder if it's a recirc-style heater instead of just a simple immersion element.

And where did you get that diagram? I've been looking for VW diagrams forever, it's like finding rainbow unicorns.

The car cranks up the EGTs during the first mile of driving, presumably to get all of the emissions components up to temperature to make the urea injection effective. The urea injector fires based on the amount of fuel being injected, so I think it's safe to assume that it stops injecting during overrun since there is no fuel being injected and no NOx being produced.

Parts diagrams can be found here: http://www.partsbase.org

The page covering the DEF systems can be found here: http://www.partsbase.org/vw/passat-...-catalytic-reduction-scr-see-workshop-manual/

Does the car reach a point where it will simply shut down? I know it won't re-start if shut off when there's no Adblue supply, but I wonder if it will simply stop running at some point.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

Does the car reach a point where it will simply shut down? I know it won't re-start if shut off when there's no Adblue supply, but I wonder if it will simply stop running at some point.

Click to expand...

No. AdBlue faults will not interrupt engine operation or reduce power (unlike the DuraMax). The only fallout is not being able to restart the engine once the countdown reaches zero miles.

Thanks for the links and diagrams folks!

vw_norm said:

According to the electrical schematics, there are 3 heaters: a pump heater, a line heater, a tank heater, fed by a 30 A fuse SB-8 (under hood). I bet those parts labeled #18, which are 2-pole flat contact housings make #17 the "in-line" heater?

Click to expand...

#4 is not only the heater, it is the reservoir level and temperature sensor, called the delivery module. The pump which sits on top of the delivery module,external to the tank does as you say also have a heater. I'd concur on your schematic that 17 or 18 are the line heater or maybe pump electrical connectors. Even the repair manual doesn't really specify exactly where the line heater is located. When I looked at the system when I bought the car, having looked at the manual I'd say it's located between the tank and the muffler, in a group of connectors and delivery line. This means after the line runs near and past the muffler, there is no further heating. The line runs from the muffler, apart from the exhaust to the injection site at the front of the car.

If I were still in the cold, as I said in another thread, I'd wrap the tank in insulation, and likely insulate the line from the muffler forward.

Here's the link for the drawing in post #98: http://www.partsbase.org/vw/passat-pa-us-2012-25366-exhaust-gas-treatment-system-for-vehicles-with-selective-catalytic-reduction-scr-see-workshop-manual/
And here's the part nomenclature for the above drawing:
. exhaust gas treatment system; for vehicles with selective; catalytic reduction (scr); see workshop manual; 2.0 ltr.; common rail; diesel eng.
1 561131878B reduction agent tank 1
2 WHT004793 o-ring 1
3 3C0131980 end cap 1
4 561198970 heater element repair kit 1
5 7N0198975 lock set heater element 1
6 2E0201485 ventilation union 1
7 561131213 clip 1
8 3D0971838N cable ties. cable ties; 4,5X200 1
9 2E0971350M cable tie with fixing. cable tie with fixing; tab 1
10 561198969 repair kit for fuel. repair kit for fuel; delivery module 1
11 2E0919050T gasket set 1
12 561131977A insulating piece 1
13 7N0941329 control unit for reduction. control unit for reduction; agent metering system 1
14 3C0906651 evaluation unit for reduction. evaluation unit for reduction; agent reserve 1
15 N 0195307 hex collared bolt. hex collared bolt; M8X25 3
16 561971830A bracket for connector housing 1
17 561131983 supply line for reduction. supply line for reduction; agent 1
18 1J0973702 flat contact housing with. flat contact housing with; contact locking mechanism; matching contact housing:; 2 pin; black; 1J0 973 802 2
19 3D0971838N cable ties. cable ties; 4,5X200 X
20 561131984A supply line for reduction. supply line for reduction; agent 1
21 1J0973802 flat connector housing with. flat connector housing with; contact locking mechanism; matching contact housing:; 2 pin; black; 1J0 973 702 1
22 . injector for reduction; agent; see diagram, item:; 253-65,29
23 G 052910A2 urea solution adblue. urea solution adblue; 1890ML 1
23 G 052910A4 urea solution adblue. urea solution adblue; use only in conjunction with:; container; 10 ltr.; white; VAS 6542; VAG 1383A/1 X

DEF Issues in Wisconsin's Cold

I wanted to post this this thread to see if anyone else in Wisconsin or Minnesota had issues during our -25 degree stint.

Last week Wisconsin and the surrounding states went through the "polar vortex," I'm sure you all know that.

Here's my story:

Last Sunday night my 2013 Passat TDI 6MT sat outside during the night in temperatures reaching -27 below with -59 degree wind chills. I went to leave my lady friends house in the morning and started the car. It took a few glow plug cycles and several attempts to crank it over, but it finally started. Shortly after I left for home and the glow plug light started flashing, and stayed flashing, for several miles. I attributed this to the cold and kept driving. The flashing glow plug light went away and things were fine.

The next morning 3 of my friends and I left for a snowboarding trip to Colorado in temperatures hovering around -20 degrees. All was well until northern Iowa when the check engine light came on and a warning sign saying I had x amount of miles left until no start. Since it was 6 a.m. and we were in a hurry I kept driving with the intention of not shutting the car down until we reached Vail. A few hundred miles later, and 20 degrees warmer, the Adblue system stopped harassing me but the check engine light stayed on.

Fast forward 4 days to Saturday when I finally was able to visit a dealership in Denver, Larry H. Miller VW, and was told that I would need to purchase DEF fluid from them to rectify the situation since I was "out of fluid." I had spoken to my hometown dealer about this a few days earlier and was told that I could stop by any VW dealership and they would give me Adblue for free. Knowing this, I had it out with the service manager(with a very, very jerkish demeanor) regarding why I shouldn't have to pay for this. He tried saying that I would have to make an appointment, have the vehicle diagnosed and then they could give it to me for free.

Finally they caved and gave me a bottle of it and said fill it yourself, which I did. I realized very quickly that the DEF fluid was not empty and ended up spilling some in my trunk(the dealership would not produce an MSDS to a "Non-professional," even though in a previous HR job I was the MSDS manager). The service advisor informed me that since I still had DEF fluid, it was most likely a fault in the system. I replied, "VW is going to have a very expensive tow bill back to Wisconsin if it breaks down." He said nothing back to that, probably due to my jerkish demeanor during the interactions.

Anywho, I just wanted you guys to know that I had problems, and it looks like others are too in the cold.

Any input is appreciated... Although I am not entirely sure what that input could be.

HDNERI said:

I wanted to post this this thread to see if anyone else in Wisconsin or Minnesota had issues during our -25 degree stint.
Last week Wisconsin and the surrounding states went through the "polar vortex," I'm sure you all know that.
Here's my story:
Last Sunday night my 2013 Passat TDI 6MT sat outside during the night in temperatures reaching -27 below with -59 degree wind chills. I went to leave my lady friends house in the morning and started the car. It took a few glow plug cycles and several attempts to crank it over, but it finally started. Shortly after I left for home and the glow plug light started flashing, and stayed flashing, for several miles. I attributed this to the cold and kept driving. The flashing glow plug light went away and things were fine.
The next morning 3 of my friends and I left for a snowboarding trip to Colorado in temperatures hovering around -20 degrees. All was well until northern Iowa when the check engine light came on and a warning sign saying I had x amount of miles left until no start. Since it was 6 a.m. and we were in a hurry I kept driving with the intention of not shutting the car down until we reached Vail. A few hundred miles later, and 20 degrees warmer, the Adblue system stopped harassing me but the check engine light stayed on.
Fast forward 4 days to Saturday when I finally was able to visit a dealership in Denver, Larry H. Miller VW, and was told that I would need to purchase DEF fluid from them to rectify the situation since I was "out of fluid." I had spoken to my hometown dealer about this a few days earlier and was told that I could stop by any VW dealership and they would give me Adblue for free. Knowing this, I had it out with the service manager(with a very, very jerkish demeanor) regarding why I shouldn't have to pay for this. He tried saying that I would have to make an appointment, have the vehicle diagnosed and then they could give it to me for free.
Finally they caved and gave me a bottle of it and said fill it yourself, which I did. I realized very quickly that the DEF fluid was not empty and ended up spilling some in my trunk(the dealership would not produce an MSDS to a "Non-professional," even though in a previous HR job I was the MSDS manager). The service advisor informed me that since I still had DEF fluid, it was most likely a fault in the system. I replied, "VW is going to have a very expensive tow bill back to Wisconsin if it breaks down." He said nothing back to that, probably due to my jerkish demeanor during the interactions.
Anywho, I just wanted you guys to know that I had problems, and it looks like others are too in the cold.
Any input is appreciated... Although I am not entirely sure what that input could be.

Click to expand...

I merged your thread with this one, where you will find several reports identical to yours.

Short answer: VW is aware of the issue and apparently coming up with a resolution (according to reports from members). There is no estimated repair time that we're aware of.

If you find yourself in this situation again, do not turn the engine off if it is displaying 0 miles on the count down, as the engine will not restart. Fortunately, I think everyone has had the warning clear itself before reaching 0 miles.

I had to post this, since I know we all have our dealership annoyances.

I just got off the phone with OSHA's Denver office about the MSDS not being produced... guess who is now going to be getting a visit from OSHA

There is no federal requirement for the dealer, or any retailer, to provide a consumer with an msds. OSHA hazcom applies only to employer situations.

kydsid said:

There is no federal requirement for the dealer, or any retailer, to provide a consumer with an msds. OSHA hazcom applies only to employer situations.

Click to expand...

Truth. I'm also pretty sure that the MSDS for AdBlue is readily available online.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=AdBlue+MSDS#

From my experience in HR, which was backed up by the conversation with the OSHA representative, a business with 10 or more employees is required to keep an MSDS, now SDS, on record for most chemicals that they use. They are supposed to provide it if you ask them for it, but are only able to be fined if an employee asks for it and it is not provided.

Moral of the story is, I was pleased to be able to provide that dealer with an OSHA inspection. At minimum, they will know in the future that they are supposed to provide the SDS. Maximum they'll have a violation or two and will have to pay up, which the "stealership" can afford due to them grossly overcharging for every service that they provide.

Just got back. The techs hooked it up and read the codes.

Turns out I was right. It was too cold for the AdBlue system heaters to keep pace with, resulting in freezing in the line.

That being said, there is an improved heater that will be installed on Friday along with upgraded software to sort out the issue.

Talking with the techs, they had seen a few during the cold snap, usually from people driving long distances on the highway. Since it's warmed up substantially, the issue hasn't come up again.

The car is running fine and no harm was done to the car. I can drive it like normal.

Regards

Nebelwerfer said:

Just got back. The techs hooked it up and read the codes.
Turns out I was right. It was too cold for the AdBlue system heaters to keep pace with, resulting in freezing in the line.
That being said, there is an improved heater that will be installed on Friday along with upgraded software to sort out the issue.
Talking with the techs, they had seen a few during the cold snap, usually from people driving long distances on the highway. Since it's warmed up substantially, the issue hasn't come up again.
The car is running fine and no harm was done to the car. I can drive it like normal.
Regards

Click to expand...

Interesting info! Keep us posted (and get a new part number for the revised part).

Nebelwerfer said:

Just got back. The techs hooked it up and read the codes.
Turns out I was right. It was too cold for the AdBlue system heaters to keep pace with, resulting in freezing in the line.
That being said, there is an improved heater that will be installed on Friday along with upgraded software to sort out the issue.
Talking with the techs, they had seen a few during the cold snap, usually from people driving long distances on the highway. Since it's warmed up substantially, the issue hasn't come up again.
The car is running fine and no harm was done to the car. I can drive it like normal.
Regards

Click to expand...

Wow that was fast to have a improved heater. Ready to put in cars

MonsterTDI09 said:

Wow that was fast to have a improved heater. Ready to put in cars

Click to expand...

Probably ran into the issue in 2012 with cars in colder climates here in Canuckistan and came up with the fix, so probably two years ago. Many people haven't needed it until recently.

It never got too cold where I live until the last cold snap getting down to -30C.

/conspiracy theory LOL

Nebelwerfer said:

Probably ran into the issue in 2012 with cars in colder climates here in Canuckistan and came up with the fix, so probably two years ago. Many people haven't needed it until recently.

It never got too cold where I live until the last cold snap getting down to -30C.

/conspiracy theory LOL

Click to expand...

I thing this is a good guess, and probably the most likely one. The other possibility is that cars being delivered to the far north had them from the beginning installed at the factory and they are now pushing them out to others that have experienced this problem.

That seems far more likely to me, since VW sells in countries that are far colder than the US.

- Tim

Well, apparently I spoke too soon.

Parts are on order but there appears to be none available in NA. On back order.

Currently in a rental waiting for parts to arrive. As long as it gets fixed right the first time, that's all I care about.

I hate Chrysler.......sigh.

Get the car back this afternoon, fixed test driven and cleaned up.

Happy to be out of the POS Chrysler and Hyundai rentals and be back in the TDI.

Left the details in the car and the temps are a bit on the cool side tonight. I'll post them sometime tomorrow. They removed the tank, drained the DEF, took the pump/ heater out and replaced it. Refilled the DEF without making a mess ( I looked under the mats and in the spare tires well ) Updated the software as well. Shouldn't have the same issue again.

Regards

I'm glad for you Nebelwerfer, that they got you going again. I'm glad my Passat is only a lease, b/c it would be irking really bad knowing that the ad blue heater is inefficient in our cars. Although I probably would never visit or live those extreme cold areas in North America, it would be my luck, that Nebelwerfer's situation would happen to me, lol!