High elevation, hill climb, high load overheating?

740GLE

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ChadS99SVT

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UPDATE:

So I took the car in over the weekend and I was able to take a tech for a drive up I70. After hopping in the car and driving for a bit I was picking the brain of the tech and to my disappointment he was not a TDI tech and had very little knowledge of TDI or Diesel. He came from AUDI and was new to VW. I was explaining things to him and I'm sure he was understanding, but I was just hoping to have an actual TDI tech that knew the nuances of the turbo diesel.

Anyway, He started off in teh drivers seat and was driving up the hill we hit 225 with his driving but what I found with him is he was all over the place with mashing my gas upshifting etc not real smooth at all and I feel like that was affecting things. I asked to drive and he had no problem with that. I hopped in and we had to go back down the hill and turn around for another drive up due to massive traffic. on my short drive we hit 229*

Bottom line is in his opinion as a non tdi tech :)mad:) it was operating normal. I still disagree.

The dealer has agreed to let me go with a tech in another TDI passat hooked up with their scan tool up the pass to determine if it is also reading similar temps. IF it does I agreed to give it a rest. IF it comes back with much lower temps (which I expect) I will continute to fight this.

I hope they don't back down from this offer becasue it sounded like I will need to take a brand new passat up as they do not have any loaner tdi's.

the VW care followed up with me yesterday and he was Nice and basically just touched base with me. He didn't have anything to add or offer and agreed that he would follow up after my next appointment which is scheduled for Feb 1st.


The story continues...............
 

Moltenburn

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Chad are you reading your temp numbers off a Scann GaugeII? B/C if so I think I noticed something with my torque and bluetooth set up that may be your scan gauge being not right. Every once and a while my Torque program when it connects to OBDII it will read the wrong EGT temp and the Coolant Temp. It will read the EGT 400 degrees higher than normal and it will say my engine temp is about 20 over. When I back out of program on phone and reboot then it reads properly. My thought is maybe your scan gauge is botting with your OBD incorrectly and giving you Bull Sh-ite #s. Just a thought.
 

ChadS99SVT

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2013 Passat TDI DSG
Chad are you reading your temp numbers off a Scann GaugeII? B/C if so I think I noticed something with my torque and bluetooth set up that may be your scan gauge being not right. Every once and a while my Torque program when it connects to OBDII it will read the wrong EGT temp and the Coolant Temp. It will read the EGT 400 degrees higher than normal and it will say my engine temp is about 20 over. When I back out of program on phone and reboot then it reads properly. My thought is maybe your scan gauge is botting with your OBD incorrectly and giving you Bull Sh-ite #s. Just a thought.
I don't think that's the case. My EGT's read normal, and my stock temp gauge in the cluster is adjusting in unison with the scan gauge. When it goes above 225 the stock gauge needle jumps.
 

VeeDubTDI

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I think you have a good plan there, Chad. Go for a ride in one of their Passats and monitor the temperature on a similar drive. If it's the same, let it go... if it's lower, something is wrong.
 

psd1

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Subscribed!

As I climbed a 6% grade this evening I noticed something strange in the 13 Passat, the temp needle moved off of 190*. In almost 40K miles in the Jetta I never saw the needle above 190*. Outside air was about 34* and the needle made it to the second hash past 190* (220*?) the grade is about 5 miles and there were 4 of us in the car.

I'm not overly concerned, but it does seem strange that the temp would go up quite so much.
 

VeeDubTDI

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Keep in mind the needle won't move off of "190" until the actual coolant temp is 225. Normal operating temp is around 210, despite what the gauge would have you believe.
 

psd1

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Keep in mind the needle won't move off of "190" until the actual coolant temp is 225. Normal operating temp is around 210, despite what the gauge would have you believe.
Interesting info. Why would that be the case? I understand it's a "Semi" dumb gauge, but why would VW want 210* to only show as 190*?

So, if my gauge hit the first big hash mark after 190* yesterday, what would the true temp be?
 

ChadS99SVT

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2013 Passat TDI DSG
Interesting info. Why would that be the case? I understand it's a "Semi" dumb gauge, but why would VW want 210* to only show as 190*?

So, if my gauge hit the first big hash mark after 190* yesterday, what would the true temp be?
hard to say exactly but I take a guess and say 230* max.


what was your build date out of curiosity?

I think you're the first person on the board to duplicate this possible problem.
 

VeeDubTDI

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They do it to keep armchair engineers from second-guessing them at every step along the way.

"210!? MY CHEVY NEVER RAN 210 I'M CHANGING THE THERMOSTAT AND DOING 3000 MILE OIL CHANGES"

We've all heard it before... ;)
 

psd1

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hard to say exactly but I take a guess and say 230* max.


what was your build date out of curiosity?

I think you're the first person on the board to duplicate this possible problem.
Build date is 12/12, just picked up on 1/21, this occured with 680 miles on the odo. I have a 2 mile 6% grade I drive daily, and although it isnt the 5-6 mile one I climbed yesterday it is a beast in it's own as there is no way to carry much momentum at the bottom . I will watch it tonight on the way home.
 

VeeDubTDI

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VW has been using temp gauges with a dead zone since 1996...
-J
I think he was wondering why normal (gauge straight up) is marked as 190 when it's actually 210. Interestingly, normal is marked as 200 on the Touareg. When I say "normal," I actually mean normal cruising temperature like what you would expect to see on a long highway trip.

TDIs operate in such wide temperature ranges that dead zones and mis-labeling are VW's way of controlling the flood of calls/emails about why the car never warms up (winter) or why it runs hotter sometimes but not others (regens) or any number of other questions from owners who don't fully understand what really goes on under the hood. They have chosen to hide information rather than educating the buyers - ignorance is bliss.
 

axnels2

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I climbed Loveland pass last weekend and my Scangauge E on the JSW did not go past 207f . The needle on the dash did move slightly over from the top dead center. Outside temp was 20f.

Perhaps Passats run that much hotter being a larger car and all...
 

psd1

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So last night I made my way home and payed close attention to the temp gauge: I had two adults and three teenagers and a trunk load of grocerys. On the first 6% grade (2 miles from a dead stop at the bottom) the needle hit the first hash past 190*, after descending 1/2 mile or so it was back on 190*. I then started the next 6% and it went to the first hash again. On the third (5% +/-3 miles), the needle went to just a little past the second hash. The cruise was set at 60, in 6th gear and ambient was 38*. There are still 4 hash marks before the RED zone.
 

ChadS99SVT

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On my way to te dealer to test drive another passat and see if we can replicate. Will post results in a few hours
 

psd1

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Nice. I am anxiously awaiting your results. When I have three to five people I can get the needle to move every time on my route. If it's just me, it won't move.
 

VeeDubTDI

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This is exactly why they programmed the gauge with a 60 degree dead zone to begin with. OMG THE GAUGE MOVED!! ;)
 

psd1

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This is exactly why they programmed the gauge with a 60 degree dead zone to begin with. OMG THE GAUGE MOVED!! ;)
I'm not sweating it, but I do seem to be one of the few that has a gauge that moves...or at least one of the few that see's the gauge move. ;)
 

ChadS99SVT

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Ok. So we took a brandnew 2013 TDI DSG SE with Sun. had 20 miles on the clock. I drove about 40 miles with it and we took it up the initial hills of I70 basically to evergreen. They had the laptop hooked up and we were monitoring a few things. The short of it was the temp reached 225 Max. so all things considered I "think" my car is probably operating somewhat normal. The tech wants me to bring the car back when I have time and he's going to run some tests on my temp sensors and also check the thermostat and make sure it's functioning properly. He said I "could" have a problem there but it's hard to say. (for those that don't remember my max temp I have seen was 233*) However on that same drive in my car with the tech a few weeks ago we hit 229*

couple questions. I don't remember every thing he had up on the laptop since I was driivng it was hard to watch both but there were two temp sensors one was the coolant temp, and we weren't sure what the second one was. it was only reading ~41* give or take a few degrees. it didn't fluctuate much. I was thinking amient air temp? but it was in the 20's so not sure...anyone know?

Also I hear you guys talking Vagcom a lot and whatnot he said this was the newer software I can't remember hte name of it. I want to say something S, cap S, or Vag S, He said the vagcom is much cheaper which is why most people probably use that? Can anyone shed light on this?

Either way right now I plan to let him run some tests next weekend and go from there but right now my thought is drive more worry less and it appears "normal" even though i would say this is a possible design flaw, but something I will probalby just have to live with.
 

unixb0y

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Maybe this was asked before, but did they test the coolant? Could the coolant with the wrong amount of water cause this?
 

ChadS99SVT

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Maybe this was asked before, but did they test the coolant? Could the coolant with the wrong amount of water cause this?
not sure that it was. I'm not sure what they put in it from the factory.


I know back in my mustang days we used water wetter to help control temps and I may get some of that depending on what the final outcome is.
 

unixb0y

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There was someone on an NMS forum (might have been here) that said that their coolant wasn't mixed correctly for their climate (seem to remember something about -20C). I tried searching but didn't find it.
 

psd1

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Ok. So we took a brandnew 2013 TDI DSG SE with Sun. had 20 miles on the clock. I drove about 40 miles with it and we took it up the initial hills of I70 basically to evergreen. They had the laptop hooked up and we were monitoring a few things. The short of it was the temp reached 225 Max. so all things considered I "think" my car is probably operating somewhat normal. The tech wants me to bring the car back when I have time and he's going to run some tests on my temp sensors and also check the thermostat and make sure it's functioning properly. He said I "could" have a problem there but it's hard to say. (for those that don't remember my max temp I have seen was 233*) However on that same drive in my car with the tech a few weeks ago we hit 229*

couple questions. I don't remember every thing he had up on the laptop since I was driivng it was hard to watch both but there were two temp sensors one was the coolant temp, and we weren't sure what the second one was. it was only reading ~41* give or take a few degrees. it didn't fluctuate much. I was thinking amient air temp? but it was in the 20's so not sure...anyone know?

Also I hear you guys talking Vagcom a lot and whatnot he said this was the newer software I can't remember hte name of it. I want to say something S, cap S, or Vag S, He said the vagcom is much cheaper which is why most people probably use that? Can anyone shed light on this?

Either way right now I plan to let him run some tests next weekend and go from there but right now my thought is drive more worry less and it appears "normal" even though i would say this is a possible design flaw, but something I will probalby just have to live with.
Sounds like your dealership is doing good by you!

not sure that it was. I'm not sure what they put in it from the factory.


I know back in my mustang days we used water wetter to help control temps and I may get some of that depending on what the final outcome is.
Watter Wetter, I remember that back in my Fox Body days as well!:D I guess I should have picked up on your username!
 

VeeDubTDI

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not sure that it was. I'm not sure what they put in it from the factory.


I know back in my mustang days we used water wetter to help control temps and I may get some of that depending on what the final outcome is.
Don't use Water Wetter!

Interesting outcome on your test drive.

The wrong coolant mixture post was in regard to freeze protection up in Canada, IIRC.

Next time you test: check to see what the cooling fan speed is - if they are at 100% and the temp continues to climb, then the cooling system is inadequate or the thermostat is restrictive (not opening or something). Also test flat-out acceleration up the mountains (on the test car, maybe not yours) to see how high it will get.
 

Thermo1223

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Man if you guys ever had a first gen Saturn S Series you'd trade the car in. Not to diminish an issue just interject some fun into it.

First gen Saturn's 1991-96 had what I would call a autometer dummy style coolant gauge. In as it seemed to read exact temp but no marks on the dash to tell you. Couple in the fact the rad fan waited to kick on till right below the red zone. Ya you had people pulling off the road wondering why the car was overheating, 'cept it never did. With the advent of OBDII and obvious customer feedback they tuned the gauge to not move much after hitting operating temp unless something was really wrong.

It certainly gave me a hell of a scare after seeing it I'll admit.


So it is clear, normal temp was dead middle of the gauge. If you were using A/C it would never budge from there. However on a mild day in stop & go you could easily get to the red before the fan was turned on. It wasn't a bad fan stat it is just the way they designed it.
 

ChadS99SVT

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Well as I suspected I didn't get anywhere with VWOA. They just called to follow up on my final visit to the dealer from this past weekend where they ran tests on my sensors, thermostat etc.

They gave me much of the canned responses that I've already heard and suggested stuff I have already done (take it to another dealer, replicate the issue, which I did, etc etc.)

To me it's a design flaw that VW didn't do enough testing in the mountains and figured that the temp ranges they saw were satisfactory enough considering the extremely small percentage of people that would be doing this type of driving on a regular basis.

Irritating that I fall into that percentage and now have to fear each time I go for a drive in the mountains that my car made in 2013 can't handle it.

I get that it's operating within spec and that's fine and dandy that by definition it's not overheating but what kind of longterm damage am I creating by running these sustained temps a few times per month for 30-60 minutes. how much abuse will the seals and coolant system take before it pre-maturely blows.

I am looking forward to heading up there this summer and seeing what kind of temps I see. I told them they will be getting an ear full when/If my car ever overheats.

Anyways I am disappointed but not at all surprised at the outcome.:mad:
 

FormerGasser

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Went up last Thursday packed with four of us, trunk full of gear plus 1/3 of the back seat. Snow packed from before the tunnel to Breck; my gauge never moved.
 

ColoradoDriver

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Previously: 2012 Candy White Passat TDI SEL. Sold back to VW. Now: Only gas vehicles, including 2017 Passat V6 SEL Premium
Still have never seen mine move either. Just a thought: Using any additive (or not) that might change the combustion temp?
 

Thermo1223

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I really doubt it will overheat in the summer either and there is no excess wear going on with the coolant system. I think you might be looking for an issue where non exist. I could be wrong but it is possible.

The car may be purposely holding in the heat to run more efficiently. You never know.
 
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