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Go Back   TDIClub Forums > TDI Model Specific Discussions Areas > VW MKVI-A6 Golf family including Jetta SportWagen (~ 2010-2014)

VW MKVI-A6 Golf family including Jetta SportWagen (~ 2010-2014) Discussions area for A6/MkVI (2010-2014) Golf and Golf Wagons (Jetta Sportwagon in the USA).

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Old June 10th, 2010, 18:19   #61
Nimbus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truman
Quote:This makes sense to me and would explain why failure is sudden and catastrophic. The followup question would be how and why could a fuel starvation/lubrication condition occur at the cam roller interface?
Ok.... at the top of my list for root cause possibilities is the following:

Based on the design, its seems that VW took great pains to supply fuel to the cam/roller chamber and the HPFP (3 pumps in the fuel system - amazing). In fact, there are enough sensors to put the engine in "emergency mode" (page 37) giving me the impression that VW will not allow the engine to be run hard without the fuel system running as intended. So, instead of fuel starvation I'm thinking that the fuel used in the failed pumps does not have enough lubricity. I've stated this in other posts (see below - post #105), but the more I look into this issue the more a fuel additive seems required to minimized the potential for HPFP failure. We should not have to use an additive, but unless you can verify that the majority of fuel you use has a lubricity with an HFRR value of <460 microns you should use an additive. US fuel specification is <520 microns. See the following thread for more info on HFRR values.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...=282077&page=7
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Old June 10th, 2010, 18:50   #62
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Great info!
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Old June 10th, 2010, 18:51   #63
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Default Failure Facts

Ok guys, here's the facts on the failure of the pump in the labeled photos in the first post. This car was in my shop. The customer broke down a few blocks from the gas station after filling up. Upon initial inspection we opened the fuel filter canister and found no metal. The fuel was cloudy and white in color. It smelled like turpentine but not gasoline. The fuel felt oily to the touch. We drained the tank, cleaned out the lines, added fresh diesel and primed the system. The vehicle seemed to run ok so we released the vehicle to the customer but warned him of possible future problems. We also gave him a sample of the fuel. I was worried about the low pressure fault it had when it came in. The next day the car returned on a hook just as I feared. The fuel canister had metal in it this time. The fuel sample we gave the customer was still cloudy but had developed water droplets on the bottom of the jar. I can tell everyone for sure that this pump failed from contaminated fuel. Lesson learned, next car I find with no metal but suspect fuel, I will pull the piston out of the pump and inspect the roller for damage.

The thread started by KNOWLEDGE where his fuel canister was rusted and we found rust in his tank did not need a complete fuel system. On his car we found the rust by pure luck. We were chasing down a drivability concern which ended up being the 5 volt signal wire on the charge pressure sensor rubbing on the a/c pipe on the compressor. It was dumb luck that we opened the canister and found rust.We found no contaminated fuel. We cleaned the tank, replaced the lift pump and fuel canister . The car has been running fine to this day.

Last edited by VWSHPFRMN; June 10th, 2010 at 19:11.
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Old June 10th, 2010, 18:55   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimbus
Ok.... at the top of my list for root cause possibilities is the following:

Based on the design, its seems that VW took great pains to supply fuel to the cam/roller chamber and the HPFP (3 pumps in the fuel system - amazing). In fact, there are enough sensors to put the engine in "emergency mode" (page 37) giving me the impression that VW will not allow the engine to be run hard without the fuel system running as intended. So, instead of fuel starvation I'm thinking that the fuel used in the failed pumps does not have enough lubricity. I've stated this in other posts (see below - post #105), but the more I look into this issue the more a fuel additive seems required to minimized the potential for HPFP failure. We should not have to use an additive, but unless you can verify that the majority of fuel you use has a lubricity with an HFRR value of <460 microns you should use an additive. US fuel specification is <520 microns. See the following thread for more info on HFRR values.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...=282077&page=7
And which additives do you recommend? It seems to me that CR TDI owners don't want an additive that will separate water from the fuel. If that's true, which additives are safe for CR TDIs while adding the necessary lubricity? We don't want to solve one problem and create another by using the wrong additives.

Doesn't Stanadyne Performance Formula separate water from the fuel? Doesn't Stanadyne sell a lubricity-only product that doesn't boost cetane or separate water? Wouldn't that be a good choice?
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Last edited by sgoldste01; June 10th, 2010 at 19:01.
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Old June 10th, 2010, 19:01   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgoldste01
And which additives do you recommend? It seems to me that CR TDI owners don't want an additive that will separate water from the fuel. If that's true, which additives are safe for CR TDIs while adding the necessary lubricity? We don't want to solve one problem and create another by using the wrong additives.
How many times does this have to be answered B2
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Old June 10th, 2010, 19:08   #66
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imo 50% plus failures are due to negligence of putting gasoline or bad diesel fuel in the tank
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Old June 10th, 2010, 19:12   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgoldste01
And which additives do you recommend? It seems to me that CR TDI owners don't want an additive that will separate water from the fuel. If that's true, which additives are safe for CR TDIs while adding the necessary lubricity? We don't want to solve one problem and create another by using the wrong additives.
Good question. I think everyone should do their own research on this one because, as you stated, its not clear which way to go on this. If the CR systems still had a water separator in the fuel filter it would make the decision easier. (clarification - CR fuel filters will separate water, but there is no easy method of draining the water, except during filter changes. Using an additive that helps to separate the water from the fuel is a good thing for the fuel system as long as filter maintenance is performed at the correct interval and the fuel is not contaminated with large amounts of water).

For me, I use the Stanadyne Lubricity formula because I know (and work with) engineers that have worked for Stanadyne and VW has approved this particular formula ("approved" may be a strong word here but its clear that if they had to pick one, this would be it).

Last edited by Nimbus; June 10th, 2010 at 20:15.
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Old June 11th, 2010, 01:41   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddschwaner
imo 50% plus failures are due to negligence of putting gasoline or bad diesel fuel in the tank
I'm not criticizing or contradicting this, but on what experience do you base it?
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Old June 11th, 2010, 02:21   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plus 3 Golfer
How many times does this have to be answered B2
I don't have access to biodiesel in Rochester, NY.
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Old June 11th, 2010, 05:21   #70
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Thanks Pete for your contributions, and thanks to everyone for sharing information.

I got another failed pump sent to me today.... same exact thing, galded up piston roller, worn shaft cam lobes. This one had no sign of rust either, and the little dribbles of fuel left in the pump seemed 'normal' to me. This car had 37k miles.
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Old June 11th, 2010, 07:00   #71
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I'm glad that someone outside of VW is able to get these pumps, analyze them and share the information, but why are VW and/or Bosch not keeping them to do their own analysis and find a solution? The information is good to have and I seems to be pointing toward low lubricity of the ULSD, so when our Golf arrives I'll be adding Stanadyne lubricity formula at every fill-up.

On the other hand all of the information we get here won't solve the problem, VW and Bosch have to do that, but it may allow owners to do things to prevent or postpone HPFP failure.
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Old June 11th, 2010, 07:20   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimbus
I've read some questions on this thread that can be anwsered by the following pdf. Not sure how long this will remain on the web, so save a copy.

http://www.dsd.go.th/itrain/km/kboc/...il_BIN5_UL.pdf
I'm guessing it's down because I can't get to it anymore.
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Old June 11th, 2010, 07:36   #73
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I saved a copy PM me to get an e-mail. Less than 5MB. Also if you give Google a chance it will find a cached version for you (albeit without pictures)
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Old June 11th, 2010, 08:27   #74
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Oil hammer, can you inspect the pump for the fine mesh filters that are internal to the pump by the metering valve and overflow valve? See if these collected enough crap to cause the to clog up.
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Old June 11th, 2010, 09:51   #75
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This little mesh screen is clean on both the pumps I have here. One seems to have a couple tiny 'flecks' of gray stuck in it, but nothing what you would think to see given the amount of wear on the internals. That screen must not filter anything after the pump itself.
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