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TDI Conversions Discussions on converting non TDIs into TDIS. More general items can be answered better in other sections. This is ideal for issues that don't have an overlap and are very special to swaping engines.

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Old June 10th, 2018, 20:31   #1
d0u8l3m
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Default 1999 S10 ZR2 BHW Swap

Hello everyone!

I'm starting to plan a TDI swap into my trusty old s10. I have a build thread on s10forum which serves as a place to get more information on interfacing with the truck, but I need some info from you TDI gurus as well, so here we are.

Here's the s10 thread where ill try to keep all the s10 specific info

http://www.s10forum.com/forum/f30/19.../#post12126209

I picked up a Passat wagon (which i will also be parting out if anyone needs anything other than engine related stuff) that has a bad torque converter (typical lol)

Towed the car home today with the S10





Still trying to figure out wiring, I want to get malone to do a standalone tune, for the engine, and use the s10 PCM to run the transmission. There are a few signals that Im hoping someone on here can help me figure out how to output form the VW ECU/convert them so the s10 PCM will think the 4.3 is still there. I think the main 3 are crank position which needs to be converted to a 24x or 58x signal, RPM and throttle position. More info on what im trying to do here:

https://sites.google.com/site/sloppy...ans-controller

If anyone has any insight please let me know. Im sure ill have further questions as they come.

Plan is to try and make 200hp with around 350ftlb torque, I think I can get close with a BV43 and maybe a colt cam if this engine needs a camshaft. Looking forward to hearing from everyone.

Thanks!
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Old June 12th, 2018, 19:55   #2
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this is of very much interest to me hahah.
where abouts in CT? i am around the waterbury/bristol area

read up on what whitebread did on his ranger. he does help with conversions as well
http://www.therangerstation.com/foru...d.php?t=171730
https://whitbreadperformance.com/


adapters
http://gastodiesel.tdconversions.com/adapter/

electrical
http://s-pautomotive.com/

i have been emailing this guy a lot about a harness and he is able to help, all the bells and whistles is like $600
https://www.fastforward.ca/


if you have facebook some help here too
https://www.facebook.com/groups/291980407818664/
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Old June 12th, 2018, 21:24   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sardo_67 View Post
this is of very much interest to me hahah.
where abouts in CT? i am around the waterbury/bristol area

read up on what whitebread did on his ranger. he does help with conversions as well
http://www.therangerstation.com/foru...d.php?t=171730
https://whitbreadperformance.com/


adapters
http://gastodiesel.tdconversions.com/adapter/

electrical
http://s-pautomotive.com/

i have been emailing this guy a lot about a harness and he is able to help, all the bells and whistles is like $600
https://www.fastforward.ca/


if you have facebook some help here too
https://www.facebook.com/groups/291980407818664/
Yeah I actually got a lot of that same info from that Facebook group. Bunch of great people and swaps on there.

My plan is to build up the drivetrain and make my own complete truck harness and test everything on the "bench" that way once I have everything simulated and running correctly I can just gut the truck and throw everything in there.

Also planning on using that SBC adapter from TD conversions with the 4l60e. I could get an nv3500 to make things easier but I'm an electrical engineer, so I love the challenge. My Passat sedan is my fun car to row my own, she's fast haha.

I actually got the wagon from Waterbury, small world!! I'm up in Tolland right off 84. Nice to see fellow diesel geeks in CT lol hit me up via pm maybe we can meet up and shoot the **** 😂

I'm hoping I can start gutting my old blazer for all the truck wiring this week. The actual S10 probably won't be touched for a while since I need it both to use to put less miles on the Passat and in the winter for plowing. Plus the Blazer is newer so it has the better 0411 PCM that I want to try to use as a standalone transmission controller and other misc upgrades.

Once I get all the wiring from that I'll probably do the same with the Passat wagon and work on the harness first. Then my next plan is to rebuild the blown 4l60e I have from the S10 (sacrificed the one in the Blazer for the truck lol) and set it up to handle the torque I'm planning on making. Then I'll rip the engine out of the wagon, and start working on that, it needs the bsm removed.

I'm not sure if I should rebuild it or not or even clean it as I've never ever torn that deep into an engine so it's a bit intimidating for me. But I will definitely do the BSM delete inspect the camshaft, and do a timing belt change. If it needs a new cam I might get a Colt cam but that's all planning for later on.

I think I have a good game plan, it's just a ton of reading and analyzing wiring diagrams that I've been doing lately to get more confident in starting. I'll also probably have to probe several signals from the truck on a scope and see how I'll need to convert the signals from the VW ECU to trick the 0411 into thinking the 4.3 is still there. That's my biggest concern right now, I could always use a quick shift or some other standalone trans controller but I really really want to try to make this look and run as stock as possible. If I can achieve that not only will I have a really unique truck, but I'll know that it will be just as safe as it is from factory, and hopefully give me fewer problems.
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Old June 13th, 2018, 08:23   #4
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Made a preliminary swap list, let me know if you think I need to add anything, or If i'm missing critical components.



Thanks
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Old June 13th, 2018, 11:59   #5
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Talked to Dave over at fast forward automotive up in Canada about the signals I need for the 0411 PCM and got this response
Quote:
Throttle Position
As you know, TDIs are drive by wire, so the only throttle position is the output from the accelerator pedal. 0% is 0.35V and 100% is 4.00V. Assuming the input of that device is high enough impedance not to interfere with the actual signal going to the ECU you could use that.

Crank Shaft Position
The TDI doesn't have a signal like that at all and it is very important to the ECU so I wouldn't mess with it. You would have to install a cog of sorts to the crank shaft pulley and use the universal VSS that we sell to count the 24 teeth on said cog, or a lower count of teeth an the VSS Korrekt to multiply the count up again. You could also just use the tachometer signal (2 pulse per revolution) and multiply it by 12 with the VSS Korrekt.

Vehicle Speed Sensor
Again the universal VSS and the VSS Korrekt would be your friend here.
With all this being said, I've never done this exact setup before, so I could be completely right or completely wrong.
This at least gets me started, Ill need to figure out exactly what the 0411 needs. Waiting to see if anyone over on s10forum knows what type of signal the crankshaft position is.
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Old June 13th, 2018, 14:22   #6
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you can get stand along GM trans controllers from a lot of placed, GM software is very mod friendly as well as SOOOOOOOO many offroad, racing, swap stuff uses GM transmissions.

http://www.radesignsproducts.com/win...trol-kits.html

if you want to mod my wiring harness and make a few bucks since you seem to like wires let me know hahaha
i hate electrical crap
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Old June 13th, 2018, 18:30   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sardo_67 View Post
you can get stand along GM trans controllers from a lot of placed, GM software is very mod friendly as well as SOOOOOOOO many offroad, racing, swap stuff uses GM transmissions.

http://www.radesignsproducts.com/win...trol-kits.html

if you want to mod my wiring harness and make a few bucks since you seem to like wires let me know hahaha
i hate electrical crap
Yeah true. I'd rather stay away from the manual shift stuff, the goal here is to keep it close to working like stock.

I was originally thinking of using a quick shift 4 from US Shift, but I really want to try to use the s10 pcm because that will simplify things from a controls standpoint having one computer doing the trans as well as all the body functions. If it doesn't pan out I'll probably order a quick shift and start playing around with it, their software looks pretty great tbh.

Yeah if you tell me what you need I'd be more than willing to try and get it done, just know that being an electrical engineer doesn't mean that I have all the knowledge about automotive wiring redially available, there's still a lot for me to learn on this front, but my background is definitely an advantage. My strengths are mainly in embedded systems, and software development. Which is probably why I really like this challenge lol.
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Old June 14th, 2018, 08:51   #8
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Originally Posted by d0u8l3m View Post
Yeah true. I'd rather stay away from the manual shift stuff, the goal here is to keep it close to working like stock.
I was originally thinking of using a quick shift 4 from US Shift, but I really want to try to use the s10 pcm because that will simplify things from a controls standpoint having one computer doing the trans as well as all the body functions. If it doesn't pan out I'll probably order a quick shift and start playing around with it, their software looks pretty great tbh.
Yeah if you tell me what you need I'd be more than willing to try and get it done, just know that being an electrical engineer doesn't mean that I have all the knowledge about automotive wiring redially available, there's still a lot for me to learn on this front, but my background is definitely an advantage. My strengths are mainly in embedded systems, and software development. Which is probably why I really like this challenge lol.
So here's something to take into consideration - gasoline vs Diesel shift points.

My understanding of computer-controlled automatics is limited, however, would the Volkswagen TCU operate the GM transmission? Is it not "just" a set of solenoids that need to work to switch gears? If it is that simple, would be crazy to re-invent the wheel here.
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Old June 14th, 2018, 10:24   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d0u8l3m View Post
Yeah true. I'd rather stay away from the manual shift stuff, the goal here is to keep it close to working like stock.
I was originally thinking of using a quick shift 4 from US Shift, but I really want to try to use the s10 pcm because that will simplify things from a controls standpoint having one computer doing the trans as well as all the body functions. If it doesn't pan out I'll probably order a quick shift and start playing around with it, their software looks pretty great tbh.
Yeah if you tell me what you need I'd be more than willing to try and get it done, just know that being an electrical engineer doesn't mean that I have all the knowledge about automotive wiring redially available, there's still a lot for me to learn on this front, but my background is definitely an advantage. My strengths are mainly in embedded systems, and software development. Which is probably why I really like this challenge lol.
I am not sure you are able to modify shift points and line pressure in s10 ECM to work well with tdi. I went with USShift. The software is nice to work with tweaked tune for about 3 months. It's pretty good now other than my 1st to 2nd shift. It's a bit to high in rpm, combined with corvette 2nd gear solenoid.. Almost gives me whiplash if I forget to let off pedal at moment of shift. That really annoys my wife. Lol makes nice tire chirps under only moderate acceleration if you like that sort of thing. BHW is nice engine. The stage 2 colt cam or an equivalent will give you some extra torque of bottom end and all the way up.
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Last edited by TDIsyncro; June 14th, 2018 at 10:27.
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Old June 14th, 2018, 10:34   #10
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Originally Posted by Hasenwerk View Post
So here's something to take into consideration - gasoline vs Diesel shift points.
My understanding of computer-controlled automatics is limited, however, would the Volkswagen TCU operate the GM transmission? Is it not "just" a set of solenoids that need to work to switch gears? If it is that simple, would be crazy to re-invent the wheel here.
It would be nice if it worked that way, but I highly doubt it. Though yeah mostly everything is run through the CAN bus, I'm guessing that GM and VW use different proprietary protocols. If I could modify the programming of the VW TCM via JTAG or something i'm sure eventually it could be done, but not without a massive rewrite of code.

That being said, the reason I really want to stick with the S10 PCM is that you can modify it to your hearts content fairly easily via HPTuners and other programs that are readily available to consumers. I can change the shift maps to be very similar to how the diesel shifts.

I'm still a bit lost on things like the gear ratios and the final drive though. Via another post from here the DUK in my passat has these ratios:

3.556 final drive
1st 3.500
2nd 1.944
3rd 1.222
4th 0.875
5th 0.686

(For Reference)
Stock GMR Auto from the Passat
The ZF 1060 030 106 was used behind the 2.0 diesel.

1 ------ 3.67
2 ------ 1.99
3 ------ 1.41
4 ------ 1.00
5 ------ 0.74
Final Drive 3.09

A stock 4l60E has these:

1st 3.06
2nd 1.62
3rd 1.00
4th 0.70
Reverse 2.29

At first glance it seems they aren't that far off, however I don't get how the differential gear ratios and wheel diameter come into play. The truck has 3.73 gears in it now and 31in wheels, not sure what the Passat has tbh. There are several calculators available online to help determine your speed at a given RPM but its still a bit confusing for me. Sonnax makes a different planetary gear set that brings 1st and second gear much closer together but I don't fully understand the affect it has on engine RPM.

Last edited by d0u8l3m; October 8th, 2018 at 13:30.
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Old June 14th, 2018, 10:41   #11
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Originally Posted by TDIsyncro View Post
I am not sure you are able to modify shift points and line pressure in s10 ECM to work well with tdi. I went with USShift. The software is nice to work with tweaked tune for about 3 months. It's pretty good now other than my 1st to 2nd shift. It's a bit to high in rpm, combined with corvette 2nd gear solenoid.. Almost gives me whiplash if I forget to let off pedal at moment of shift. That really annoys my wife. Lol makes nice tire chirps under only moderate acceleration if you like that sort of thing. BHW is nice engine. The stage 2 colt cam or an equivalent will give you some extra torque of bottom end and all the way up.
Haha sick, I'm all for a bit of tire squeal. You can definitely modify the shift points with HPTuners, line pressure however I'm not sure, but that can be modified mechanically with things like a transgo shift kit or Sonnax's performance pack. At least to make it a bit more firm.

Do you have the colt cam? Is it a BHW specific profile? More torque down low would definitely be nice in the truck so that sounds very ideal in this application.
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Old June 14th, 2018, 15:45   #12
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ok i see you know about the options, i only posted that link to show there are a lot of GM trans control options out there.


what are your plans with the motor, head work and single turbo or compounds?
Whitbreads B2000 build is pretty nice, and not too expensive seeing as he used OEM turbos which can be found for pretty cheap
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Old June 14th, 2018, 19:47   #13
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Haha sick, I'm all for a bit of tire squeal. You can definitely modify the shift points with HPTuners, line pressure however I'm not sure, but that can be modified mechanically with things like a transgo shift kit or Sonnax's performance pack. At least to make it a bit more firm.
Do you have the colt cam? Is it a BHW specific profile? More torque down low would definitely be nice in the truck so that sounds very ideal in this application.
That's interesting to know you can modify shift points. You will need throttle position as well for line pressure control. The USShift uses speed from electronic speed sensor on the 4l60e I imagine the pcm does the same so now worries there either way. You will want a little but smaller torque converter than the standard 4l60e unit, as well as giving yourself generous stall speed.
I helped develop the colt stage 2 and 3 cam. Back then the stage 2 was called stage 1. Most of the pd cams are the same and work equally as well the only other comment is that the colt has been from a new billet stock for quit a few years while some of the other options are regrinds (that's what my original ones were). I use to have a bhw in an audi a4 (2008). My canyon has a cjaa common rail in it. Sometimes I wish it was the bhw but one thing certain it puts down 240hp pretty easy with just turbo and tune.
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Old June 15th, 2018, 07:50   #14
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Originally Posted by sardo_67 View Post
ok i see you know about the options, i only posted that link to show there are a lot of GM trans control options out there.


what are your plans with the motor, head work and single turbo or compounds?
Whitbreads B2000 build is pretty nice, and not too expensive seeing as he used OEM turbos which can be found for pretty cheap
Right now the engine is gonna stay the way it is unless I find out the cam is trashed, if it is then that will be upgraded. Also from before i'm just gonna stick with a single BV43. As much as I like that ranger setup, that's just too complicated and overwhelming for me for now.

Still have in back of my head if I should have the engine rebuilt though. Id like to go through it and at least clean it up, but again tearing that deep into an engine myself is a bit intimidating. I know TDIs last a while but 211k is a little high.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIsyncro View Post
That's interesting to know you can modify shift points. You will need throttle position as well for line pressure control. The USShift uses speed from electronic speed sensor on the 4l60e I imagine the pcm does the same so now worries there either way. You will want a little but smaller torque converter than the standard 4l60e unit, as well as giving yourself generous stall speed.
I helped develop the colt stage 2 and 3 cam. Back then the stage 2 was called stage 1. Most of the pd cams are the same and work equally as well the only other comment is that the colt has been from a new billet stock for quit a few years while some of the other options are regrinds (that's what my original ones were). I use to have a bhw in an audi a4 (2008). My canyon has a cjaa common rail in it. Sometimes I wish it was the bhw but one thing certain it puts down 240hp pretty easy with just turbo and tune.
USShift definitely makes a nice controller, and right now it's definitely my plan B if I cant get the stock pcm to work.

I have two transmissions, one is the original 99 from the s10 that's bad, and the other is the 01 that's in there now from the blazer. I'm not sure what year they switched (finding conflicting information some say 98 some say 2000) but what ever the cut off was, I believe they went to a 300mm torque converter instead of a 298mm (not a massive difference). You think the 298mm one would still be too big? And what stall speed would you recommend, from my limited understanding of how that works I was thinking of one with a stall between 2100-2400rpm.

That's really cool you helped develop that cam! I'm not looking for crazy numbers (for now) but yeah the fact that these engines wake up so much from just a software configuration is incredible.

Your truck is a major motivator for me to do this swap btw. Anytime im thinking this is gonna be too difficult I look at that and am like, damn If that can be done so well I NEED to do this lol.
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Old June 15th, 2018, 21:04   #15
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211k really is nothing on a tdi, if you want piece of mind do a compression check and inspect before you pull from the car and then after it is pulled pull the oil pan and inspect the bearings.
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