Thought experiment; trade in DSG Golf for Manual Golf?

MacTechG4 · Nov 29, 2019

I've been mulling around this idea ever since I bought my CPO '12 Golf DSG....

As some may be aware here, I am a *HARDLINE* manual transmission guy, out of the 8 cars I've owned, only two have been automatics, a '11 Honda Element AWD with 5 speed sludgebox (died in a car accident, no longer with us), and my current daily, the '12 CPO Golf TDI.

I originally wanted a manual Golf/JSW, but most were either out of my price range (funds from the totaling out of my Element), or had too many miles to be CPO, so I held my nose, drove both, and discovered that the DSG actually had a better overall driving feel and crisper shifts, it utterly floored me, how could an "automatic" be better than a REAL manual transmission, NOT SCIENTIFICALLY POSIBLE!

The price was right, the miles were right, and it was CPO, so I held my nose, and bought it, don't get me wrong, I love the thing, love how it drives, love the handling, the endless diesel torque, the driving lights, the *HEATED* cloth seats, and having paddle shifters makes up *a little bit* for the lack of a clutch pedal and shifter, and it *is* nice to have the option to be "lazy" in traffic...

that said, it's still *NOT A MANUAL*, and my hardcore manual side screams in protest every time I get behind the wheel, HMG is screaming "TRADE IT IN FOR A MANUAL BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!"

so here's the situation;
1; it's paid off (cash sale) and registration/inspection/insurance are nicely inexpensive
2; so far, it's been reliable, shows no signs of misbehaving, and rides and handles like it's brand new
3; aside from the DSG, it's extremely enjoyable to drive

basically it's a good car that I know is reliable (so far) and does the job, and I already own it.

on the downside;

1; I'm not happy with the fact that i'll have an expensive maintenance bill every 40K for a transmission i'm not completely confident in (yes I've sen all the videos on YouTube about the durability and robustness of the DQ250 wet clutch 6SP)
2; I don't completely trust that the transmission will actually *BE* reliable in the long run, there's that recurring 40K maintenance interval, the spectre of Mechatronics failure, and the fact that I've *NEVER* trusted or ben happy with any automatic, ever, they've all been compromises, some worse than others, the DSG is just the best compromise transmission I've driven, but it *IS* a compromise
3; my old MkV Rabbit with the 5M, went 140K on the *STOCK* clutch and *STOCK* fluid, that level of durability is simply unattainable by *any* automatic, it's simply not possible
4; I *miss* the subtlety of the clutch

however;
5; the 6M I drove at the dealership *DID NOT* impress me, compared directly against the 5M in the Rabbit, the 6M felt, well, mushy, vague, and imprecise, the clutch felt like it was filled with molasses, and the shift lever had an unpleasant "sponginess" and rubbery feel, the 6M actually felt "dumbed down" compared to the 5M, heck, the DSG felt closer to the 5M than the 6M did

I know that *IF* I did trade the DSG for a 6M, i'd have to have the clutch delay valve modified ASAP, removing the restrictor plate to bring back the crispness to the clutch, and I believe that could potentially void the warranty, so i'd have to deal with a mushy clutch for 2 years before I got the problem fixed...

Neither solution is really any good, adapt to a transmission I currently don't like , that will cost me more over time than the one I *do* like, or trade out of a known good and reliable car, into a potential unknown, and risk either voiding the warranty, or dealing with a substandard clutch feel , just because I miss the third pedal....

basically, to sum up an unnecessarily long and rambly thread, I don't completely trust the DSG, hate having to pay for 40K maintenance intervals, and am concerned the transmission might just grenade on me, but I also don't like the dumbing-down of the clutch on the 6M, and that may require potentially voiding the warranty to "fix" it, or i'll be itrritated with a substandard clutch feel for 2 years before I can fix it..

my *MIND* says "keep the DSG, it's paid off, it's a known reliable property, and the transmission will probably be okay, as long as it's properly maintained"

My *HEART* says "Get the Manual, you won't be happy with anything else, manuals have "soul", manuals are *real*, manuals have *Life*, automatics are soulless, and for the lazy/unskilled."

Do I listen to my *Heart* or my *MIND*?

MacTechG4 · Nov 29, 2019

Oh, and as far as a *FUN" vehicle, one that's a true, *REAL*, visceral, totally immersive experience, I already have that, a 1999 Yamaha V-Star 650 Classic motorcycle, it's a basic, simple machine, torquey V-Twin engine, carbureted, MANUAL transmission, and REAR wheel drive, the way the Flying Spaghetti Monster intended!

it's the simple, durable, mechanical driving experience that I love, yes the TDI cars are utterly brilliant, utter sleepers, and the best value on the road, but they can't compare with the feeling of flying through the wind, atop an iron horse, thundering down the road, wind in your face, bugs in your teeth, a *part* of the world around you, not enclosed in a box-on-wheels

that's one more notch in the DSG's favour, I don't *NEED* the Golf to be my "FUN" machine (even though it is

), I have a vehicle designed from the ground up for the pure driving (riding) experience that has no compromises, like the accursed automatic transmission.

Hmm, wonder how a motorcycle would be with a V-Twin diesel engine..

TDI Motorcycle? Yes Please!

turbobrick240 · Nov 29, 2019

If you do get a 6mt, the dieselgeek sigma six shortshifters make a world of difference in the precision of the shift linkage.

Ktmracer358 · Nov 30, 2019

I was in this position with my last vehicle. I had a Ford fusion as my last ride and it was the first auto I've had. I bought the car because my wife can't drive stick and this way everyone could drive it. Needless to say I always missed driving a manual. So after 2 and a half years I couldn't take it anymore and purchased a 2012 golf tdi manual with 30k miles. This was 5 months ago and I've never regretted making the switch back. Funny as it is the same weekend my wife picked up a dsg tdi Jetta. So I've had a good opportunity to compare driving both. I will say this I love the way her dsg drove. As far as automatics come it's about the only one I've driven that come close to how I would like an auto to feel. I would have no problem driving a dsg tdi as a compromise. But it's not a manual! If you have no reason to drive an auto and are missing the manual most likely that feeling won't pass.

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Ktmracer358 · Nov 30, 2019

Double post

Ktmracer358 · Nov 30, 2019

Triple post

IndigoBlueWagon · Nov 30, 2019

I, too, far prefer manuals to automatics. And I prefer VW's older 5-speed manuals to the newer 6-speeds. i don't mind the clutch action, it's the shifter I find less rewarding. I own two cars with manuals, neither were manufactured with automatics, so I didn't have an option. They'd both be better with manuals. I bought the last new manual GSW TDI my dealer had when the stop sale was lifted in '17 because I thought I would never again be able to buy a new small wagon with a diesel and a manual. Sadly, I may have been right.

You could look at this a couple ways. First, accept you made a mistake and bought a car you're not happy with. TDI values have fallen since more buyback cars have reached the market, so you're going to take a loss. And manual cars command a premium, so you're going to pay more for a manual car that's comparable to what you have. But if you don't want to live with what you have, that may be your option.

Or you can live with the DSG. Most likely it's going to be as reliable and durable as a manual, and the DSG service costs really don't add up to much. Both will suffer DMF failure at some point. Clutch packs are a rare failure item on the DSG, less common than manual clutch failure.

You've got a good car you like otherwise. Hindsight is 20/20. You should have bought a manual. Depending on how long you plan to keep the car, it might be worth switching. I'm not sure what I'd do.

JELLOWSUBMARINE · Nov 30, 2019

Ktmracer358 said:
I was in this position with my last vehicle. I had a Ford fusion as my last ride and it was the first auto I've had.Sent from my REVVL 2 PLUS using Tapatalk

On a side note: I wish the new fusion had a wagon, up to 2014 you could get a manual, rare put there.

Ktmracer358 · Nov 30, 2019

JELLOWSUBMARINE said:
On a side note: I wish the new fusion had a wagon, up to 2014 you could get a manual, rare put there.

That is true it was available with the 1.6L. the Mondeo wagon is sweet. That with the 2.7ecoboost awd and a 6speed would have kept me with Ford. But VW has earned my business with consistently offering manual transmissions

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JELLOWSUBMARINE · Dec 1, 2019

JELLOWSUBMARINE said:
On a side note: I wish the new fusion had a wagon, up to 2014 you could get a manual, rare put there.

Ktmracer358 said:
That is true it was available with the 1.6L. the Mondeo wagon is sweet. That with the 2.7ecoboost awd and a 6speed would have kept me with Ford. But VW has earned my business with consistently offering manual transmissions

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Yep, bad assss. 6 sp., wagon. What is the deal with the US market and wagons??? I'd still be with Ford also. Still love the JSW but it will probably cost me more to own & drive than if the fusion/Mondeo wagon were available.

Ktmracer358 · Dec 1, 2019

JELLOWSUBMARINE said:
Yep, bad assss. 6 sp., wagon. What is the deal with the US market and wagons??? I'd still be with Ford also. Still love the JSW but it will probably cost me more to own & drive than if the fusion/Mondeo wagon were available.

Plus for me the extended emissions warranty is hard to pass for the cost I payed for the vehicle.

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Pharcyde145 · Dec 1, 2019

Three pedals are better than two. I like to control the car and be fully engaged, not the other way around.

Indigo makes some terrific points, the hindsight aspect being particularly accurate. I don't think you need us to tell you how green the grass is on the other side of the fence, it's all in how the light hits it. If you want another fun vehicle go for it, but it might cost a bit more and only show you return in the form of sensory pleasure.

If I had to choose a 2.7 with a 6spd, it'd have to be an early 2000's S4 Avant, even if it's over 100K and 18 years old.

tjg · Dec 2, 2019

So I've got a 2005 Audi S4 with a 6 spd trans and I love it.

However, I've become a huge believer in the DSG. It's a phenomenal transmission and gets even better with the Malone tune.
I've just done my second 40k mile service on my sportwagen and it's not a hard diy at all... even if you're doing it on your driveway with jack stands. The top fill method is foolproof.

FL_BeachBum · Dec 2, 2019

MacTechG4 said:
I've been mulling around this idea ever since I bought my CPO '12 Golf DSG....

As some may be aware here, I am a *HARDLINE* manual transmission guy, out of the 8 cars I've owned, only two have been automatics, a '11 Honda Element AWD with 5 speed sludgebox (died in a car accident, no longer with us), and my current daily, the '12 CPO Golf TDI.

I originally wanted a manual Golf/JSW, but most were either out of my price range (funds from the totaling out of my Element), or had too many miles to be CPO, so I held my nose, drove both, and discovered that the DSG actually had a better overall driving feel and crisper shifts, it utterly floored me, how could an "automatic" be better than a REAL manual transmission, NOT SCIENTIFICALLY POSIBLE!

The price was right, the miles were right, and it was CPO, so I held my nose, and bought it, don't get me wrong, I love the thing, love how it drives, love the handling, the endless diesel torque, the driving lights, the *HEATED* cloth seats, and having paddle shifters makes up *a little bit* for the lack of a clutch pedal and shifter, and it *is* nice to have the option to be "lazy" in traffic...

that said, it's still *NOT A MANUAL*, and my hardcore manual side screams in protest every time I get behind the wheel, HMG is screaming "TRADE IT IN FOR A MANUAL BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!"

so here's the situation;
1; it's paid off (cash sale) and registration/inspection/insurance are nicely inexpensive
2; so far, it's been reliable, shows no signs of misbehaving, and rides and handles like it's brand new
3; aside from the DSG, it's extremely enjoyable to drive

basically it's a good car that I know is reliable (so far) and does the job, and I already own it.

on the downside;

1; I'm not happy with the fact that i'll have an expensive maintenance bill every 40K for a transmission i'm not completely confident in (yes I've sen all the videos on YouTube about the durability and robustness of the DQ250 wet clutch 6SP)
2; I don't completely trust that the transmission will actually *BE* reliable in the long run, there's that recurring 40K maintenance interval, the spectre of Mechatronics failure, and the fact that I've *NEVER* trusted or ben happy with any automatic, ever, they've all been compromises, some worse than others, the DSG is just the best compromise transmission I've driven, but it *IS* a compromise
3; my old MkV Rabbit with the 5M, went 140K on the *STOCK* clutch and *STOCK* fluid, that level of durability is simply unattainable by *any* automatic, it's simply not possible
4; I *miss* the subtlety of the clutch

however;
5; the 6M I drove at the dealership *DID NOT* impress me, compared directly against the 5M in the Rabbit, the 6M felt, well, mushy, vague, and imprecise, the clutch felt like it was filled with molasses, and the shift lever had an unpleasant "sponginess" and rubbery feel, the 6M actually felt "dumbed down" compared to the 5M, heck, the DSG felt closer to the 5M than the 6M did

I know that *IF* I did trade the DSG for a 6M, i'd have to have the clutch delay valve modified ASAP, removing the restrictor plate to bring back the crispness to the clutch, and I believe that could potentially void the warranty, so i'd have to deal with a mushy clutch for 2 years before I got the problem fixed...

Neither solution is really any good, adapt to a transmission I currently don't like , that will cost me more over time than the one I *do* like, or trade out of a known good and reliable car, into a potential unknown, and risk either voiding the warranty, or dealing with a substandard clutch feel , just because I miss the third pedal....

basically, to sum up an unnecessarily long and rambly thread, I don't completely trust the DSG, hate having to pay for 40K maintenance intervals, and am concerned the transmission might just grenade on me, but I also don't like the dumbing-down of the clutch on the 6M, and that may require potentially voiding the warranty to "fix" it, or i'll be itrritated with a substandard clutch feel for 2 years before I can fix it..

my *MIND* says "keep the DSG, it's paid off, it's a known reliable property, and the transmission will probably be okay, as long as it's properly maintained"

My *HEART* says "Get the Manual, you won't be happy with anything else, manuals have "soul", manuals are *real*, manuals have *Life*, automatics are soulless, and for the lazy/unskilled."

Do I listen to my *Heart* or my *MIND*?

Have you thought about doing a DSG tune and seeing if that lessens the compromise? I was in the a similar position and I’m going to do the tune on the DSG once I have some parts fall off my car in the next couple months.

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MacTechG4 · Dec 4, 2019

If I end up holding on to the DSG Golf, I do plan to do at least a DSG tune, maybe a tuning mod to update the power, and possibly a DPF delete (no emissions test in northern New England... yet)

The features I’d like to change in the DSG;
Disable kickdown in manual mode so it holds the gear until I choose to shift
Maximize performance in “S” mode
Remove the start off lag in “D”, tune a bit more for economy

Basically, remove as much of the “automatic-ness” as possible, try to get it as close as possible to a traditional manual.

Of course all of the above is easily done with a manual, you just give up the”convenience” of the automatic operation...

No start off lag (unless you botch the shift)
Performance whenever you want it (shift later in the RPM range)
Economy whenever you want it (shift earlier at lower RPM)
You just lose the ability to be in “LazyMode”

FL_BeachBum · Dec 4, 2019

MacTechG4 said:
If I end up holding on to the DSG Golf, I do plan to do at least a DSG tune, maybe a tuning mod to update the power, and possibly a DPF delete (no emissions test in northern New England... yet)

The features I’d like to change in the DSG;
Disable kickdown in manual mode so it holds the gear until I choose to shift
Maximize performance in “S” mode
Remove the start off lag in “D”, tune a bit more for economy

Basically, remove as much of the “automatic-ness” as possible, try to get it as close as possible to a traditional manual.

Of course all of the above is easily done with a manual, you just give up the”convenience” of the automatic operation...

No start off lag (unless you botch the shift)
Performance whenever you want it (shift later in the RPM range)
Economy whenever you want it (shift earlier at lower RPM)
You just lose the ability to be in “LazyMode”

Sounds like a good tune would fix your woes for sure

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thought experiment; trade in DSG Golf for Manual Golf?

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