www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You




Go Back   TDIClub Forums > TDI Model Specific Discussions Areas > VW MKVI-A6 Golf family including Jetta SportWagen (~ 2010-2014)

VW MKVI-A6 Golf family including Jetta SportWagen (~ 2010-2014) Discussions area for A6/MkVI (2010-2014) Golf and Golf Wagons (Jetta Sportwagon in the USA).

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 17th, 2010, 11:12   #31
VWConvert
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Default

Not trying to jack this thread... but I am curious about the hydro lock thing. Can it happen on any Turbo charged cars intercooler, or naturally aspirated too?

I had a 3 day, 7 inch rain storm here in Cincinnati (3 days non-stop rain), afterwards... my Rx7 acts like the engines stalling when I give it a regular throttle (normal driving) I can only move my gas pedal about half way, any closer to the floor board and the car goes crazy. Would that be a result of hydro locking? It's a 91 naturally aspirated, and the car doesn't have a distributer... I can't think what the problem is.

Suggestions? Yeah, not a diesel motor... just curious if anyone might shed some light on it
VWConvert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2010, 11:36   #32
tcp_ip_dude
Veteran Member
 
tcp_ip_dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Cape Fear area, NC
Fuel Economy: 46@75mph/51@60mph/City 38mpg
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VWConvert View Post
Not trying to jack this thread... but I am curious about the hydro lock thing. Can it happen on any Turbo charged cars intercooler, or naturally aspirated too?

I had a 3 day, 7 inch rain storm here in Cincinnati (3 days non-stop rain), afterwards... my Rx7 acts like the engines stalling when I give it a regular throttle (normal driving) I can only move my gas pedal about half way, any closer to the floor board and the car goes crazy. Would that be a result of hydro locking? It's a 91 naturally aspirated, and the car doesn't have a distributer... I can't think what the problem is.

Suggestions? Yeah, not a diesel motor... just curious if anyone might shed some light on it
Hydrolocking under the circumstances being discussed in this thread is highly unlikely on a rotary engine (RX7) for many reasons, least of which is that they are relatively low compression engines and have an entirely different combustion cycle. But I won't say it's impossible, but I've never heard of it and I use to race rotaries (RX/3, RX/7, etc)

Hydro-locking occurs when a sufficient amount of un-compressible liquid (water, oil, etc) enters the combustion cylinder and during the compression stroke, well, something's got to give and things get very ugly, very fast.
__________________
______________________________
'10 Jetta 6M Sedan, 35% Llumar tint, WeatherTech Floor Liners, TDIclub Plate Frame, B2, PS, ScanGauge II, Micro-Can VAG-Com

Last edited by tcp_ip_dude; December 17th, 2010 at 11:53.
tcp_ip_dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2010, 11:47   #33
ToeBall
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Houston, TX
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcp_ip_dude View Post
Hydrolocking is highly unlikely on a rotary engine (RX7), they are relatively low compression engines and have an entirely different combustion cycle.
Actually for gas burners, Wankles are relatively high compression motors. Hydrolocking, in the true sense isn't possible, however, since all that would happen is the motor would blow its brushes if the volume was too high. Still would leave you stranded, but it's a much easier fix than replacing connecting rods and rebalancing the rotating assembly.

Hydrolocking isn't a function of compression ratio, only volume. If the volume at TDC is smaller than volume of water ingested during the intake cycle, the rod bends since the crank won't stop and there's nowhere for the piston to go.
__________________


2010 VW JSW TDI "Barley", 6-speed manual, Blue Graphite - 255/40's on 18x8's, Sigma6, B&M Shifter, Malone Stage 2, Koni coilovers w/H&R springs, 28mm front/27mm rear swaybars, GTD Grill, 900W stereo, PDE downpipe, Banks exhaust, APR intake, Votex kit.
ToeBall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2010, 12:06   #34
honda93
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IFRCFI View Post
Anybody else ever owned a new car that you have to manage what weather conditions you drive it in....? Yup...me neither...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 53 willys View Post
wow thats nasty!!! I dont want my engine taking in that shizz...i'm a bit disappointed to see that on a 2010 with 10k....
Quote:
Originally Posted by timwagon View Post
Thanks to all for the explanations.

Now I have one more thing to worry about...exploding fuel pumps and frozen intercoolers.

Thaks a lot!
This is my first TDI and my first VW in general. Should I ditch it now with just 6500 on it, go underwater on the loan, and get a GTI? This is silly... I entered into this purchase expecting a 400K mile capable automobile, not one that would have me biting my fingers each time these not-so-minor issues surface on this forum. I had delusional visions, didn't I?
__________________
Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA
www.autox4u.com


Last edited by honda93; December 17th, 2010 at 12:11.
honda93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2010, 12:12   #35
tcp_ip_dude
Veteran Member
 
tcp_ip_dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Cape Fear area, NC
Fuel Economy: 46@75mph/51@60mph/City 38mpg
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToeBall View Post
Actually for gas burners, Wankles are relatively high compression motors.

Hydrolocking isn't a function of compression ratio, only volume. If the volume at TDC is smaller than volume of water ingested during the intake cycle, the rod bends since the crank won't stop and there's nowhere for the piston to go.
Highest I've ever seen or heard of (in a Mazda race engine) was ~10:1, which is I guess in par for a regular 4 stroke street gas engine, but the apex seals were replaced after each race.

But try parking an RX/3 in first gear on a hill and leave the e-bake off and see what happens (ask me how I know this)

You are absolutely correct about the relationship of Hydrolocking, Compression Ratio and volume.

Back on topic. Sorry for the deviation.
__________________
______________________________
'10 Jetta 6M Sedan, 35% Llumar tint, WeatherTech Floor Liners, TDIclub Plate Frame, B2, PS, ScanGauge II, Micro-Can VAG-Com

Last edited by tcp_ip_dude; December 17th, 2010 at 12:26.
tcp_ip_dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2010, 12:29   #36
TDIFred
Veteran Member
 
TDIFred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Fuel Economy: 64, 60, 48
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by honda93 View Post
This is my first TDI and my first VW in general. Should I ditch it now with just 6500 on it, go underwater on the loan, and get a GTI? This is silly... I entered into this purchase expecting a 400K mile capable automobile, not one that would have me biting my fingers each time these not-so-minor issues surface on this forum. I had delusional visions, didn't I?
unfortunately for you, and many other newer owners on here, there is a tendency for doom and gloom to dominate. many over-dramatise small problems which get undue attention. while I am not trying to minimise engine failures or HPFP failures, they are relatively rare. we are car buffs otherwsie we would not be on this forum. what about all the other drivers who are not TDIClub members? my 2009 JSW is my fourth VW diesel and I (touch wood) have not yhet had catastrophic failures. I have had some minor annoyances but none more than I would had I done like my neighbour's license plate read: "OUt of a Job Yet, Keep Buying Foreign". I like diesels, and hopefully will never have to go back to gas...
__________________
2015 Tiguan (no diesel)
2009 Jetta Sportwagen TDI (gone)
1993 Ducati 900 'Black Monica' (California)
1994 Ducati 900 Supersport Red
2014 Ducati 899 Panigale Red
TDIFred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2010, 12:39   #37
honda93
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIFred View Post
unfortunately for you, and many other newer owners on here, there is a tendency for doom and gloom to dominate. many over-dramatise small problems which get undue attention. while I am not trying to minimise engine failures or HPFP failures, they are relatively rare. we are car buffs otherwsie we would not be on this forum. what about all the other drivers who are not TDIClub members? my 2009 JSW is my fourth VW diesel and I (touch wood) have not yhet had catastrophic failures. I have had some minor annoyances but none more than I would had I done like my neighbour's license plate read: "OUt of a Job Yet, Keep Buying Foreign". I like diesels, and hopefully will never have to go back to gas...
Thank you Fred!

I try to avoid falling for such "doom and gloom" scenarios on a general basis, but a lot of people I know, especially within the SCCA, implied before the purchase that I should avoid VW's in general (in making the jump from almost 20 years of owning Honda's).

I would hate to see them proved correct because I really do love the car and am impressed by so many components of its design and engineering that I would hate for repairs (versus maintenance) to become the first thing that comes to mind when I think of the car.
__________________
Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA
www.autox4u.com

honda93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2010, 12:41   #38
Ryephile
Veteran Member
 
Ryephile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Metro Detroit
TDI(s): MkVI Golf
Default

Wow, the sky is falling again. :P

If you want to be proactive, every 10k oil change, loosen the IC hose and dump out whatever is in there. It'll add a whole 2 minutes to your oil change procedure, and ease your mind.

A catch can would be another good idea, though AFAIK nobody has developed one for the CR TDI yet.
__________________
'11 Golf TDI :: 6MT 4DR :: Reflex Silver
KW Variant 1 coil-overs :: VW Mud Flaps :: Frost Heater :: Opti-Lube + B2
Ryephile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2010, 13:18   #39
GraniteRooster
Veteran Member
 
GraniteRooster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Upper Valley NH
TDI(s): '12 JSW 6MT
Fuel Economy: 41 Winter | 45 Summer
Default

Just got off the phone with VWoA - rep was initially clueless but after being forced to review the case with her supervisor, found out that apparently that VW is supposed to come out with a TSB "Soon" on this. And, my case will be elevated to the regional rep immediately, I should hear from them within a business day.

Hopefully the TSB is more than "drain it out and put it back together". I feel no need to disconnect my intercooler hoses for this kind of nonsense. Dealer thinks it should take another 5k miles before I collect enough water for this to happen again. I give it a week, and just one "run" in the right conditions.

By my calculations our engines move ~71 cfm through the manifold at 2000rpm - over my 100 minute commute to work that is total 7100 ACFM (that is 7100 cu.ft. @ typical boost pressure) or about 10,000 cu.ft SCFM total depending on what you figure for typical cruising boost @ 65 mph average. I'll bet a lot of water can be condensed out of that volume under humid conditions... no way I should have to check my hoses every week, or every day - thats junk.

For bonus points - what engine RPM's are required to "Blow Out" your intercooler full of water? For a roughly 2" intake pipe @ above 2000 rpm, I get 54 ft/s intake velocity, or about 37 mph. Anyone know the terminal velocity of water drop falling in air?? I looked it up - seems like 10 m/s or about 33 f/t sec is the max speed published for a big raindrop.

So it seems to me like about 1200 rpm (just above idle coincidentally) would make enough airflow to lift out the big drops, and @ 2000 rpm it should be like a 40mph wind tunnel inside the intercooler and water should have very little if any chance to "collect". And if you ever rev your engine to 3-4k RPM (like daily, right!!!) that should really blow through collected water, unless there are some seriously poor flow geometries in the system.

Icing from condensation on the other hand, I can see that. Ice melting after shutting down and sitting warm, making puddles down low, and then slugs of water ingested straight in on startup - I can definitely see that.

My $0.02 - thanks for reading. Typing is therapeutic and I'm a little riled up

Last edited by GraniteRooster; December 17th, 2010 at 13:26.
GraniteRooster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2010, 13:33   #40
ymz
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Between Toronto & Montreal
Fuel Economy: 5.3 l/100 km (at 115 km/h)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIFred View Post
they are relatively rare.
Yes, they are, but...

It's VW's response to these things that irritates most... (And if you happen to have a 2004/5 Passat TDI, it's not a rare occurrence when your balance shaft / oil pump fails... at some point it's a certainty unless you've had the geared module installed - at your expense, and hopefully before the engine's trashed...)

Not that it's of any comfort, but we've heard of plenty of horror stories about other manufacturers not standing behind their products, leading to expensive repairs that the hapless owners must endure...

As someone once said: A little bit of paranoia can be the key to a long life...

Yuri
__________________

Pereat mundus, fiat musica!
ymz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2010, 13:59   #41
IFRCFI
Veteran Member
 
IFRCFI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Winchester, VA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GraniteRooster View Post
Hopefully the TSB is more than "drain it out and put it back together".
You can guarantee it will be as inexpensive a solution as possible, and be kept as quiet as possible. TSBs generally doesn't equal Recall or even re-engineered or additional parts/components. So, draining it will probably be the quiet solution.

OK resident TDI engineers, time to develop a solution to put a petcock drain at the low point on the intercooler hoses.

Small airplane engines use this to separate air from the oil/moisture that normally would drip out the breather.

IFRCFI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2010, 14:00   #42
n1das
TDIClub Enthusiast
Veteran Member
 
n1das's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Nashua, NH, USA
Fuel Economy: Who cares? It's a DIESEL! Great fuel economy comes as a bonus!
Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by GraniteRooster View Post
For bonus points - what engine RPM's are required to "Blow Out" your intercooler full of water? For a roughly 2" intake pipe @ above 2000 rpm, I get 54 ft/s intake velocity, or about 37 mph. Anyone know the terminal velocity of water drop falling in air?? I looked it up - seems like 10 m/s or about 33 f/t sec is the max speed published for a big raindrop.

So it seems to me like about 1200 rpm (just above idle coincidentally) would make enough airflow to lift out the big drops, and @ 2000 rpm it should be like a 40mph wind tunnel inside the intercooler and water should have very little if any chance to "collect". And if you ever rev your engine to 3-4k RPM (like daily, right!!!) that should really blow through collected water, unless there are some seriously poor flow geometries in the system.

Icing from condensation on the other hand, I can see that. Ice melting after shutting down and sitting warm, making puddles down low, and then slugs of water ingested straight in on startup - I can definitely see that.
I regularly run mine up to 4k RPM at WOT while running thru the gears whenever I'm on a long highway on-ramp and traffic permits. I drive mine like I stole it in addition to cruising along at 2000 RPM. I don't baby it, same with my older TDI(s). My JSW sees DAILY WOT runs!

These cars don't like to be babied. They need to be reguarly driven hard and use the engine's entire power band. "Drive it like you stole it" describes it best.

Any more info on a TSB mentioned?
__________________
Why DIESEL is better: (Courtesy TDIclub forum member wxman)
PM - https://sites.google.com/view/lmarzccm/home
Air Toxics - https://sites.google.com/view/loren-marz-ccm/home
Ozone Precursors - https://sites.google.com/view/lorenmarz-ccm/home
General - https://sites.google.com/view/emissions-general/home

Last edited by n1das; December 17th, 2010 at 14:02.
n1das is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2010, 14:08   #43
IFRCFI
Veteran Member
 
IFRCFI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Winchester, VA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IFRCFI View Post
time to develop a solution
Perhaps like this:

IFRCFI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2010, 17:26   #44
frugality
Veteran Member
 
frugality's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Spring Lake, Michigan
Fuel Economy: 33mpg
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcp_ip_dude View Post
Also, being a fuel throttled engine (diesel) as opposed to an air throttled engine (gasser), relatively speaking, the diesel moves a much larger volume of air through the intercooler (and engine), so I could see how a proportionately larger volume of condensate could accumulate on the 'cold' side of the intercooler.
There is less air going through a TDI intake (intercooler included) than a gasser intake. Our cars get better mileage because they get more 'bang' for the amount of fuel and air. At highway speed, our TDI's will be turning 2000rpm. A similar 2.0T gasser will be higher, say 3000rpm. With the same displacement (and boost), the gasser will be flowing 50% more air.

How it's throttled is a separate matter.
__________________
2016 GTI SE 6M with lighting package, runs on RUG, has spark plugs? AVERAGING 33mpg!
2010 Jetta Sportwagen TDI, 197,089 miles, Silver, manual, 17" Goals, original brakes -- GONE; REPURCHASED BY THE MANUFACTURER.
frugality is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2010, 17:40   #45
Samcar222
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Rochester, NY
Fuel Economy: 35-38 MPG town, 45-48 hw; {40 town, 51.6 hw w/ massive tailwind, 42.6/tank are records}
Exclamation

This is all very interesting....

Can someone post a pic(s) of these intercooler hoses, where they are, and how one drains them? Is it a long job? (aka, could some dealer tech do it if I kindly asked on a sticky note on the steering wheel at my 10k service due in one week??)

And in the meantime, (before TSB/recall) WOT runs are advisable?
(like anyone would say no....)

(And the car (in terms of powertrain) has been flawless, save the occasional DSG hickup.*knocks on wood*)
__________________
'10 JSW TDI-Moms-Salsa Red-DSG-rear side airbags-pano roof-mats/splash-buy back at 90k replaced with '17 Alltrack SEL, 23k, 25/36, tank in snow
'03 ALH Jetta Wagon 5mt 305k lots o' rust, will explode at any moment
'01 BMW 530iA-Dads-Anthracite-118k

Last edited by Samcar222; December 17th, 2010 at 17:46.
Samcar222 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Golf tdi 99 hard start from cold and yesterday won't start at all deep_sing VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) 17 December 13th, 2013 07:48
TDi 130 PD - Hard Start When Cold, No Start When Hot ginboomerang VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) 5 July 12th, 2011 12:36
Hard Start Plus Check Engine Light and Blinking Glow Plug Indicator Greg_Morgan VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) 13 December 21st, 2006 17:21
No Glow? Hard cold start? Check coolant temp sensor. Jimmy TDI 101 3 January 29th, 2006 08:27
Check Eng Light - Hard start - glow plug - $$$ basco2 VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) 9 January 27th, 2001 19:28


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:04.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.37233 seconds with 13 queries
[Output: 150.84 Kb. compressed to 127.96 Kb. by saving 22.88 Kb. (15.17%)]