2005 BEW PD lift pump operation and internals

I finally pulled the pump one more time. The canister does not drain down, but the eductor line does drain down. It gurgles until that line purges air. Basically, the eductor hose level goes to the amount of fuel in the tank. If there is a check valve in the eductor, I am guessing that is where my problem is.

I think my reply got lost in a server outage.

What you have described is normal for that pump.

The eductor line is a discharge line, not a suction. The gurgling noise will not hurt a thing, and is not a sign of a problem.

Dan, thanks a lot for this thread. Your knowledge of the lift pump is tremendously helpfull. Came across all this info while troubleshooting my parents car.

They have a 2004.5 PD (50k miles), which has recently been suffering very erratic stalling. After the first stall I changed the fuel filter, sucked some fuel back through with a Pela, and it fired right up and ran great... For about a day, then stalled again, would not run without flooring it. Towed to dealer (grr!) who charged a couple hundred dollars to do nothing and say it seems fine. Ran great for a few more days, then stalls. So I finally do some real research (read this thread, etc).

Now with fuel line (pump supply to filter) run into a jar in the engine bay, I cycled the key several times. Always heard the pump "run" for just about 1 second, but nothing more than a dribble in the engine bay. So I figure the lift pump is toast (and it may well be). Unfortunately their fuel tank was FULL, so after siphoning a few gallons out, I pull out the lift pump. I was half expecting an obvious clog since we run biodiesel during the summers only, and thus get a nice clogging sovlent flush every spring. But it looked great (other than black grime coating). I put everything back together half expecting my just messing with it to do something. Now with key cycled, NO sound at all from lift pump! ***. I was very careful and did not disrupt anything on the assembly.

Have you ever seen problems with electrical connections on the pump? Is it really ok for this connections to sit immersed in diesel fuel at all times!?!? I was surprised.

So, I pulled the lift pump back out again. Sitting on its side in a drain pan with no fuel connections (but plugged in to wire harness), I still had no sound with key cycle. Then, I jiggled the wire connections underneath the lift pump lid and all of a sudden it came to life and began to spurt.

I think this is the source of their erratic stalling (lift pump electrical connections coming on and off). I plan to brake clean them off, and crimp them back together harder. Of course, I will do the LCR mod while the pump is out. But I am hoping that it is simply the electircal connections causing this problem. There is a chance that this same problem could be easily misdiagnosed as a complete pump failure for other folks... hopefully not, since $230 isnt really negligible.

Hopefully I'll get my LCR mod parts on tuesday and have it running that night. Will report back on electircal fix and testing before the re-install.

If your pump looks like the 'B' variant in the early photos, do not bother to do the LCR mod. The car will be able to run fine without it, if it has no air leaks in the fuel system. Yours does have air leaks, at least this is the most likely reason for why it will run sometimes and sometimes will have trouble. Save those parts for the replacement pump.

One typical failure mode for the pumps is to begin erratic operation. This is most often from brush tension issues as the brushes and commutator wear out inside the DC motor.

When your motor was running was it pumping well? More than 3 liters per minute, nearly 4?

I would suggest going ahead and buying the new lift pump and modifying it. If they keep the car, they will need it.

When the pump runs you should get at least 50 cc per key cycle. If you put a battery directly to it, you should get almost 4 lpm.

Good luck,

Dan

Dang Dan, you just ruined my day. haha.

They probably do have air leaks. How the heck does one troubleshoot that? Some of the fuel hoses up front arent looking so hot, even though the car is 2 years newer than my ALH, has 40k less miles, and has used a lot less biodiesel in its lifetime. Go figure.

I cannot state a pump flow when the engine was running well as I never tested it. I will test the pump tonight in a bucket akin to what you have done before, after I rework the electrical connections a bit. Fingers crossed that that gives me some confidence in this pump. Main reason is that I leave town for 10 days later this week, and the car is sitting in a random parking lot. So it needs to run!

If you smear a thick axle grease around the fittings that are likely to leak, then it will no longer be able to suck air.

This is a short term fix we would use on the farm to fix vacuum leaks (air leaking into vacuum).

I hope it was simply a loose electrical connection.

The best way to test the pump is not with the car running, but with an external power source. I use a trolling motor battery.

If the pump is in an intermittent failure mode, you might leave them a screwdriver to remove the cover. A good thump will often jar the brushes enough to get it rolling again for a short time.

Obviously the best fix is to put in a good pump. (Not trying to aggravate you, just makeing sure you look at all the options.)

Yep. Thanks again Dan.

Just did the external test in my garage. After cleaning and crimping the connections on firmer, the pump fires right up everytime when connected to 12V... only no fuel comes out whatsoever. Shot. What a piece of junk, only 5 years and 48k miles. New pump on the way. I think the connections still may not have been great, but clearly that wasnt the cause.

Maybe I'll go beat on it and see if it starts working, just for fun.

Ah, the joys of TDI ownership.

Edit: One tap with a 2lb hammer and its flowing a stream of fuel 2' into the air. Too risky to keep using?

I would use it until my new one came in.

Dan

shizzler said:

Yep. Thanks again Dan.

Just did the external test in my garage. After cleaning and crimping the connections on firmer, the pump fires right up everytime when connected to 12V... only no fuel comes out whatsoever. Shot. What a piece of junk, only 5 years and 48k miles. New pump on the way. I think the connections still may not have been great, but clearly that wasnt the cause.

Maybe I'll go beat on it and see if it starts working, just for fun.

Ah, the joys of TDI ownership.

Edit: One tap with a 2lb hammer and its flowing a stream of fuel 2' into the air. Too risky to keep using?

Click to expand...

Mine failed at 46,000 miles. It quit suddenly while driving (no warning), so the wire may have come loose inside. Since it was a warranty repair, I never saw the failed pump, so I have no idea how it failed. I do recall hearing a slightly lounder "normal" pump sound for the second or so when the key is turned on, about one day before it failed, though.

--Nate

I copied my post from LCR's thread post 58. Got tired of referring folks to both.

My new grey top white bodied fuel lift pump came in today from BoraParts.com.

I modified it using larger tubing and components than LCR did originally.

I used 7 spring type hose clamps 14-0094 from procycle for their hose.
I used a 5/16 barbed check valve 47245K24 from www.mcmaster.com
I used a 5/16" barbed tee 5372K614 from the same source.

One link to the hose is on this page: http://www.procycle.us/main/fuel_hose.htm

I cut the tee back, as did LCR.
As LCR did, I could see no way to make anything but large sweeping curves to avoid crimping the lines.
I mounted my tee directly on top of the pump.

I had earlier modified one using the 1/4" viton that LCR initially recommended, but the viton had failed on one person's pump, and I wanted to try a different material that was physically tougher. The 1/4" tubing is stretched to its limits to get over the pump's components.
The barb on the underside of the assembly top has a 9.25 mm bulge on it.
The barb on the top of the electric pump has a 9 mm maximum OD.

SnowCat has used this polyeurethane for his ALH clear fuel line for 3 years with no problem, and the vendor says it is good for fuel, WVO and BIO. So I thought I would give it a shot. It is also a lot cheaper than Viton.

This pump has a check valve in the return line, so the return line cannot be used as a fuel source, even with high fuel levels. You might also check yours out, Jeff (jsrmonster); I think I see the bulge of a check valve housing on your pump's return line as well. It was built into the top assembly.

Once modified this pump assembly should be even better than the originals. The original only had a tiny orifice to pull fuel through, and it had to overcome a spring loaded valve in order to pull fuel. This one will have much lower resistance to flow in the emergency, pump off, mode.

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Hose lengths that I use. Any shorter and they tend to crimp. Though this makes loops that stick out pretty far.

14.0inches tee to check valve
6.5 inches CV to sump, crenellated end
19.0 inches, tee to outlet
1.25” pump to tee.
Remember the tee has to be cut back to a single barb.

Some hints and tips.
Check very closely that the clamps, hose and check valve do not fret or rub on any wiring or other part. Remember that the top will be forced down about an inch when it is installed in the tank.
You should be able to blow through the crenellated end that goes into the canister, but not suck through it. This verifies the check valve is inserted the correct way.
Once the tubing is installed on the pump, insert the lower canister into the tank. Leave the elastomeric seal ring out for now. Then tuck the tubing down and in, first one side and then the other. Ensure the tubing springs out and uncrimps itself.
Let the assembly sit in the tank, then plug it in electrically and install the fuel line connections.
1. Cycle the key and ensure at least 50 ml of fuel flows out at the filter connection. (A better test would be to hook up 12 volts to the pump at terminals 1 and 4, to run it continuously and measure the flow rate. It should be over 3 liters per minute. I think I normally see closer to 4 lpm.) This verifies that your normal fuel path is not pinched or impeded.
2. Then with the key off, verify that you can pull 500 ml of fuel from the tank with a mityvac at the filter connection. This verifies that your check valve and suction line are clear, you want to pull much more than the fuel lines could hold, to prove you are pulling it from the tank suction lines.

Remove the electrical and fluid connections. Install the elastomeric seal ring on the tank, ensure it is flush and smooth, both on the outer lip and inside the tank. Then lower the top assembly down into the elastomeric seal ring, push down on the top to set it flush, square up the hard plastic seal ring and turn and drive it until it is tight and in the original orientation.

3. If you wish to test the suction path, then (after running the pump at least once for a minute) pull fuse 28 and verify your engine will start and run. Then you know the mod is installed right, and you know your car does not have air inleakage that would prevent the mod from being effective.
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dieselfueler said:

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Why are you bumping this?

Stalled then no start.

My car stalled on Friday and then would not restart. I suspect that I have a lift pump issue. I wasn't getting any fuel up at the filter so I started to go after the in tank pump. I put a hose right on the outlet of the pump and I got about 2.5 Tbsp or 36 cc of fuel directly out of the pump. Based on what Dan has said in this thread, that is well under the 50 to 100cc I should be seeing. I suspect that the screen is dirty. So far I haven't been able to get the ring to turn much using a hammer and a drift. I'm off to get a gear puller and latch onto it that way. Should be much easier to turn. Any words of advice?

Do you think that low of a flow would have caused the car to stall and not restart? It happened when the RPMs were low as I was starting to turn a corner.

Bob

Try a piece of 2 X 4 wood and a big hammer to persaude the rubber lock ring.

--Nate

When trying to get the ring to turn, keep moving around the ring. Do not just hammer on one ear. Hammer on all of them in turn. They usually start moving after you have been around once.

While 36 cc per minute seems low, it still seems to me that you would get the car to start with that flow, if you were getting that much out of the fuel filter, rather than out of the pump.

Quite often the pumps become intermittent in operation before they fail completely. Do you think that might be the case here?

Have you inspected your timing belt? This is a good idea on a "stalled while running" scenario.

Has it been cold enough for fuel to gel in your area?

Nate wins the biggest hammer award. The 2x4 and hammer took the ring right off.

Now I need to figure out what the extra spring and plastic piece/tube is that was sitting at the bottom of my tank. I don't see where they could possibly go.


"Extra parts"

Dan it has dropped to freezing here, but I use fuel from a high turnover station and treat with the white DP, so I don't think it gelled. The TB was done 10k ago by a trusted mechanic, but I guess there's no harm in pulling the upper cover to check.

To clarify, it squirted about 36cc of fuel out when I cycled the key, so maybe I'm going in the wrong direction here.

Bob

Pulled TB cover. Everything is intact.

I'm still thinking some sort of fuel delivery issue. I'm going to pull the pump apart and check the screen. I suspect its not clean as I often run the tank down pretty low, which probably caused any sediment in the tank to get sucked into the screen. I also did not realize that the lift pump counts on fuel in the tank to cool the pump.

Still puzzled by the extra parts. The spring looks like the spring on the pump in the pictures at the start of the post. Maybe leftover from a previous pump change prior to me owning the car. Strange.

Bob

Does the pump in the tank still have this spring on the right?

There is no spring on my pump as shown in you picture. I may have a different pump as there doesn't appear to be any place for that spring to sit in that position. I assume that spring is to keep the bottom of the pump housing pressed against the bottom og the fuel tank, right? My pump is spring loaded (must be internal) and compresses & expands when presssed down on.

Bob

May the ECU have become unplugged? Since there was some work done with it in the last weeks.

mctdi said:

May the ECU have become unplugged? Since there was some work done with it in the last weeks.

Click to expand...

The ECU never came out of the car. I had the most current VW software (from the GP update) so he was able to do it all thru the ODBII port.

I was out of town over the weekend, so I'll be back to checking out the lift pump tonight. The extra parts are driving me crazy.

Bob

Here's what my pump looks like. Any idea if those extra pieces belong on here? I'm starting to think that they are the remants of a sloppy replacement job.



Either way, it's not getting my car started....

Bob

Could you try a clear fuel line returning to the filter, see flow from the pump on the end of the camshaft and if there are air bubbles in the fuel?

If needed, I have some clear blue 5/6" fuel line.

I'm going to give the pump the bucket test. If that passes I'll put it back in and give your idea a try. I wish the PD would have used clear hoses like the ALH did, it lets you quickly see if you have fuel moving thru the system.

Bob

I also think that the parts are from the original pump.

I would not worry about them.

Problem solved.

I was able to get my car started. It turns out that the problem was fuel related in that the computer was not calling for fuel.

I went thru all the fuel system tests that Dan outlined. I even took apart my lift pump to clean and check it. My screen had a little debris on it by nothing major. I did find little chunks of plastic in the canister portion of the pump. I suspect those came from the previous hack job someone did when they replaced the pump before. Based on the pieces I found sitting at the bottom of the tank, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I surmise that the only problem those little pieces would have cause would have been to maybe get stuck in the check valve which holds fuel in the canister after shutdown.

In the end, after reading through more no-start threads, I happened to notice that my scangauge showed a GPH reading of 0 when cranking the engine. I decided to pull the connecting plugs off the ECU and clean them with contact cleaner. I also cleaned up the three ground wires near the ECU. As soon as I cleaned those and attempted to restart, the car started to sputter and then caught. It's started and ran fine since then.

I want to thank DanG144, McTDI, & PDJetta for their help. Even though the problem ended up not directly being the fuel "pumping" system, I learned a lot about the PD fuel system.

Bob

There are a lot of grounds the can cause problems. You did the right thing by doing the "Due Diligence" by throughly trouble shooting your problem. We found out at the last Asheville GTG that not all lift pump problem are due to a bad liftpump one car we worked on didn't have any power going to it ends up the fuse for the liftpump was missing in the fusebox. The car had been running fine but when we did a Diesel Purge injector clean the loop back line on the fuel filter showed no fuel being moved by the pump. The tandem pump had been doing all the work moving the fuel from the tank.

Nice write up Dan.. Well done with excellent pictures to boot.
Just reading through the starting issues with the PD to help determine my own no start issue. I,m currently in the middle of changing out my Convenience control module under drivers seat
Here http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=265152&page=2
This happened over the holidays as result of clogged weep holes under battery try and servo unit. (Passat) in culmination with car wash and rain
It ran fine all week (minus door locks etc that he module controls) Yesterday was the first chance I got to remove the carpets to check the state of CCM under there. When I tried to start yesterday before commencing work on this it wouldn't fire. It was plugged in and the engine felt warm to touch,. I haven't done the glow plug recall and it has always started no problem down to zero.
Since this water issue messed things up is it possible I have a compromised relay for the fuel pump.
I haven't done any further testing since removing the convenience control module. Just researching no start issues and came across your thread. I know this will probably bring a barrage of the usual questions like, going to the doctor with a cough and asking him / her do I have cancer
No I haven't checked the filter yet (changed about 5k miles ago) but your thread sound like the logical progression from here once I get the Convenience control module replaced.
Thanks for excellent write up. How much do these replacement pumps cost? sounds like something that should be done as a maintenance issue to clean that screen. So is cleaning those silly weep lines and I can attest to that .
Chris

Been having issues with the lift pump in my 2003 Bora TDI 150 PD ARL as in it failed and i dont think it has ever worked since ive had the car!
Thanks to the info on here Im up and running again with a nice smooth car! I only had problems in frosty weather and it would run for 1/2 mile or so then stall and be hard to restart then fine for the rest of the day, You could drive through it if it started to miss on the open road.

The 1JO 919 050 B seems rare in used form and is £236 $372 ish for new.
I now have a 1JO 919 050 that i bought used to get me going.

My question is why cant i use the 1JO 919 051 H out of the petrol?
They look the same and can be picked up used for £15 or so.

So give me a valid reason or am i going to have to try 1 and be the guinea pig?

Planning the bypass as soon as i get the materials.

scotclayshooter said:

My question is why cant i use the 1JO 919 051 H out of the petrol?
They look the same and can be picked up used for £15 or so.

So give me a valid reason or am i going to have to try 1 and be the guinea pig?

Click to expand...

The gas/petrol version puts out way more pressure than the diesel version. There are some threads on here where people have tried to use them (unsuccessfully).

Bob