MB 300TD/320CDI, advice, discussion, help needed

Hi Alex,

I have some questions about those cars/ECU

Is there also a good and affordable way to make datalogs and diagnosis for these? Like in vcds for VW?

What about injector and HP pump sizing?

No, there is no such device as VAG related VCDS for MB cars of this age.

You need genuine Mercedes Benz Star Diagnosis (preferable incl. Developer Kit) or try to setup an external monitoring system like dashQ from zeitronics per example.

In fact I am not sure if even genuine Star Diagnosis can record logged data...

What do you want to know about injector and pump sizing?

On older OM606 IDI engines, injectors can stay stock, but you may upgrade the pump per example with a so called "Myna Pump" (bigger pump elements inside with 7.5mm)

On CDI engines you can use C30 CDI AMG injectors which deliver about 30% more fuel with stock railpressure. You can also upgrade the pump plus injectors, using CP3 CR pump from OM648 will allow to raise railpressure from stock 1200bar up to 1800bar.
In this combination you get enough fuel for 400+hp, but notice that you have to remove visco fan for this pump and replace it with electric fans.
You also need CR pressure sensor from new gen. CR because stock sensor wont read up to 1800bar, and it would be recommended to use modified rail lines.

For boost levels over 1.5bar you need different MAP which is available p'n'p from a different Mercedes and has 2.5bar measuring range.

Stock intercooler is very small, so you need to upgrade this too, its even worth to upgrade with chiptuning only to keep IATs low and power level upright.

On E300TD you can make about 220hp/410Nm with software only if engine and periphery is in good condition, on E320CDI 260hp/600Nm is safe.

Transmission on E300TD is way more weak than on E320CDI.

Regards, Alex

Ok,

the case is like this, we want to put this engine in a boat, the least of our concerns is cooling, the engine that will be sourced (OM642) is from an e320cdi IIRC and has edc16 and 1600bar railpressure, also the 17.5:1 (or 18:1 as some sources give) CR is not really optimal..

I found out that the 2010 OM642 LS has upgraded pistons with 15.5:1 CR

Is your car already edc16? or edc15c?

Just found out they made the R6 engine until 2006 too! om642 is offcourse V6

Mine is EDC15C6

OM648 is the lastest and last evolution of inline 6 cylinder engine its the follower of "my" OM613

OM642 is V6, thats correct. I think it comes always with DPF....

Regards, Alex

Jep, but dpf is the least of the concerns.. probaly the ecu has obd funtionality, but monitoring boost parameters, and main duration, timing, pilot quantity and dwelltime etc would be really nice

do you have any info bout nozzles for these engines?

I guess newer generation engines offer better OBD diagnostics circumfance than mine per example.

About nozzles I will ask if you want, i think there will be something out there....

What power goal?

That would be very nice!

goal is around 400nbhp at 4000-4500rpm, preferble with not more than 24-25 degrees injection duration.. we'll probaly use different pump with 1800 bar in case the stock one won't be sufficient

Injectors are very big on this engine, no need to swap for 400hp ;-)

me like!

Ok, plans have changed.. it seems we aquired a OM648, which should be quite compareable tot he OM613 you have Alex, it's a square engine so reviing it high should not be such a concern as with the OM642.. which permit higher power levels with reasonable torque.. unfortunatly the CR is 18:1 , but after some looking around it seems AMG made the 5zyl version with 97mm stroke.. I don,t know so much about the rod length of this engines, but if a suitable OEM rod could be found, the compressor ratio would drop to around 15:1 by just dropping in the AMG slugs.. which would make it a quite a bit more forgiving when running double the stock output continously.. any tought about the possible issues one would occur going this route?

Wanted to pose a question to keep this thread going. What modifications would it take to get the OM606 up to 300-350 ft/lbs of torque reliably?

Here are some calculations for the compressor wheel I am currently using in my MB.

First off: This compressor will for sure outflow the GT23 tubine by far!

This is only compressor calculation with normal 20 degrees celcius ambient air temperature.

I chose high volumetric efficiency of 96%, this may be lower in real, but to compensate i chose high lambda of 1.2

I am aware that this is pure THEORETICAL calculation, real world will quite sure create more losses, this calculation shall only be a rough estimation.

Formula used:

CFM = L x rpm x VE x PR / 5660

L = Displacement
rpm = well....rpm *g*
VE = volumetric efficiency
PR = Pressure ratio

"CFM" is US measuring unit, "cubic feet per minute" , and is used in some compressor maps.
CFM / 14.27 = lb/min
lb / 0.45359 = kg

Our comp-map is in m³/sec so we have to convert from weight to volume. Typical weight of ambient air is about 1.2kg/m³ at 20 degrees celcius.

PR = requested boost plus ambient pressure plus pressure losses
.
I have calculated plotting points for following rpm steps:

1500/2250/2500/3000/3500/4000/4350

2250 shall be our point of highest torque, and highest power shall be from 3500-4350

To go sure we don't come left to surge line, there is also 1500rpm calculated and a "starting point" with 20% from max. flow at PR1


Displacement in Liter 3.222
VE 96%

Plot 1 (Requested boost in intake manifold is 1.45bar + Ambient +0.15 losses = PR2.6))
3.222 x 1500 x 96 x 2.6 / 5660 = 213.13 CFM = 14.93lb/min = 6.77kg/min = 0.113kg/sec = 0.094m³/sec

Plot 1 = 0.094 / PR 2.6

Plot 2
3.222 x 2250 x 96 x 3.2 / 5660 = 393.47 CFM = 27.57lb/min = 12.50kg/min = 0.208kg/sec = 0.173m³/sec

Plot 2 = 0.173 / PR 3.2

Plot 3
3.222 x 2500 x 96 x 3.1 / 5660 = 423.53 CFM = 29.68lb/min = 13.46kg/min = 0.224kg/sec = 0.187m³/sec

Plot 3 = 0.187 / PR 3.1

Plot 4
3.222 x 3000 x 96 x 3.1 / 5660 = 508.23 CFM = 35.61lb/min = 16.15kg/min = 0.27kg/sec = 0.224m³/sec

Plot 4 = 0.224 / PR 3.1

Plot 5
3.222 x 3500 x 96 x 3.0 / 5660 = 573.81 CFM = 40.21lb/min = 18.24kg/min = 0.304kg/sec = 0.253m³/sec

Plot 5 = 0.253 / PR 3.0

Plot 6
3.222 x 4000 x 96 x 2.65 / 5660 = 579.28 CFM = 40.59lb/min = 18.41kg/min = 0.306kg/sec = 0.256m³/sec

Plot 6 = 0.256 / PR 2.65

Plot 7
3.222 x 4350 x 96 x 2.4 / 5660 = 570.53 CFM = 39.98lb/min = 18.13kg/min = 0.302kg/sec = 0.252m³/sec

Plot 7 = 0.252 / PR 2.4

Starting point for surge line: 20% of plot 6.

0.256 / 5 = 0.05 / PR 1

These data can be filled into the compressor map now:



Now we got our airmass. Lets see what fuel we need....

A 6 Cylinder 4 stroke engine has 3 combustion strokes per revolution.

This means @ 1500rpm:
1500 x 3 / 60 = 75 combustion strokes per second

2250 x 3 / 60 = 112.5T/sec
2500 x 3 / 60 = 125 T/sec
3000 x 3 / 60 = 150 T/sec
3500 x 3 / 60 = 175 T/sec
4000 x 3 / 60 = 200 T/sec
4350 x 3 / 60 = 217.5 T/sec

Lets calculate with Lambda 1.2.

When we converted from kg/sec to m³/sec for the plotting points above we also used factor 1.2 so we can use these numbers from above calculations.

At 1500 rpm these where 0.113Kg/sec or 0.094m³/sec. So we use 94g/sec. Divide by Lambda 1: 14.7 . 94/14.7 = 6.394g = 6394mg Diesel, divided through 75 combustion strokes per second = 85mg or 101mm³/stroke (Diesel densitiy is calculated with 0.84)
So here are the other points:

1500rpm: 94g/sec air and 85mg / 101mm^3 Diesel
2250rpm: 208g/sec air and 125mg / 149mm^3 Diesel
2500rpm: 224g/sec air and 122mg / 145mm^3 Diesel
3000rpm: 270g/sec air and 122mg / 145mm^3 Diesel
3500rpm: 304g/sec air and 118mg / 140mm^3 Diesel
4000rpm: 306g/sec air and 104mg / 123mm^3 Diesel
4350rpm: 302g/sec air and 94mg / 112mm^3 Diesel.

So if we look at stock program:


we see,the engine need 72mm³/stroke (60.5mg) for 470Nm in point of highest torque, this equals to 6.52Nm/mm³ or 7.77Nm per mm3.
At 2250 rpm we have 125mg/149mm³ which would lead to about 970Nm with a clean lambda of 1.2

About 60mm³ the stock engine needs at highest power rpm for the 197hp, in upper calculation our result is about 120mm³, so this would also give about TWICE the stock power ~ 400hp.

What a pity the GT23 turbine wont flow these amounts of exhaust gas :-(

But impressive what this "little" compressor could do, if coupled with a right sized turbine....

Regards, Alex

Are you sure that compressor map belongs to exactly yours compressor wheel ? If yes, i amazed really, i am almost ready with BV50 hybrid with same compressor wheel and seems 330hp what i want from it are possible even with good compressor efficiency.

Anyway what fuel mods you plan to made for your new turbo ? And what is the power limitation of stock fuel system ?

Yes, it is Borg Warner 2480 extended tip wheel map. I am using it already in my car.
I was also thinking that a 300+ hp would be limit until I calculated.
But you must keep in mind that these calculations are done with 20degrees celcius intake air temperature which you more likely won't reach in real life application.
With 20 degrees higher IAT you loose about 10% of airmass already and therefore you also have to reduce injection quantity = less power.

The stock fueling system has its "safe" limit at about 255-260bhp, my current tune is not "safe" for sustained WOT runs but ok for short sprints.

For upgrading fuel system I use V8 CP3 high pressure pump, rails and sensor in first step and later add C30 CDI AMG injectors which will in summary give enough fueling for ~400bhp.

As stated above the compressor seems to be flowing quite some airmass, but downside is, that it is hard to come by some bigger VNT turbine to match the compressor. I am quite sure kkk bv50 turbine will not be able to flow 330bhp.

I found one bigger Garrett turbine with about 2mm bigger exducer diameter which results in a very high trim of 95 ( stock turbine is about trim 88 )
so this will help moving the choke line a little, approx. 10-15% higher flow should be possible.

Stock turbine is on it's limit at about 265-270hp, so the slightly bigger version should be good to at least come close to 300hp mark....

Regards Alex

there are some nice medium frame S200 vnt turbine out there..

Altough you need bit bigger compressor as the turbine cannot spin 200k rpm offcourse

Alex,

What rail and sensor are you using, it seems the OM648 rail has different fuel line orientation.. Sensor also is not pnp on the OM613 rail

If you use the V8 pump and AMG line from pump to rail its fits all pnp on the OM613 rail, AMG nozzles fit nicely pnp in the stock OM613 injectors, so only thing left is a sensor which can measure at least 2000bar and fits the OM613 rail

If you slightly lower the shimming of the nozzle you gain also a few % of fueling, in worst case

Yes to use V8 pump you need a little parts "mixture" of OM648 and AMG OM612 engine then it all fits pnp incl rail pressure sensor.
This is capable of 1600-1800bar measuring range.
The injectors will be rebuilt to AMG spec when testing with V8 pump and stock injectors is finished, I want to see "step by step" results of every change.
Regarding S200 turbine: I have been looking for a solution which fits into GT2359V hotside, but there is very limited space for improvement due to the very small gap between turbine inducer diameter and VNT vanes in max. open position.
So you actually can't use turbine with bigger inducer diameter, but I found one with same inducer and 2mm bigger exducer = higher trim.

In future I will be ending up with complete turbo conversion anyway with something like Master Power or Holset...

But before all of this I have to make stronger transmission, mine is slipping now with ~750Nm...

Regards Alex

750Nm at 6000 rpm I can see ain't nothing to be ashamed for

so you know the OM648 rails fits pnp with the OM612/3 injectors and the little line going from pump to rails? (OM612 amg line)

I was looking on ebay for a OM648 rail, and on the pictures the orientation of the inj outlet and HP pump inlet looked much different to the OM613 rail

You need:
Leitung (Line) A6120700033
Leitung (Line)A6120702232
Drucksensor (Pressure sensor)A0061536528

;-)

majesty78 said:

As stated above the compressor seems to be flowing quite some airmass, but downside is, that it is hard to come by some bigger VNT turbine to match the compressor. I am quite sure kkk bv50 turbine will not be able to flow 330bhp.

Click to expand...

Why you think BV50 exhaust side cant flow 330hp ? When i see BV50 on first time years ago i think that too, but like you know this turbo is used on Porsche 997tt engine, i compare both turbos and shaft and compressor both are same, with stock turbos Porsche max out them on 570-580hp(3.0tdi max out its on 290hp) but when you put hybrids(only compressor wheel change without exhaust side mod) same car made 650hp easy. Some monts ago guys in France made such car with LOBA BV50 hybrids and reach 700hp easy on their Dynostar dyno. LOBA use 2383 billet wheels on their turbos.

You can't compare diesel with gasoline ;-)

majesty78 said:

You can't compare diesel with gasoline ;-)

Click to expand...

I dont compare them, its all about airflow and same turbo made almost same power on both engines when its maxed out
Like i wrote you gasoline twin BV50 turbo engine is maxed out on 570-580hp(290hp per turbo), in same time same turbo on diesel engine is maxed out on 290hp

Yes, I have no problem with 290hp ;-)

majesty78 said:

Yes, I have no problem with 290hp ;-)

Click to expand...

290hp is flow limit for stock BV50, for hybrid it will be more

Maybe I understand something wrong.

But: If you make a hybrid bv50 by changing compressor wheel, how can turbine flow more then?

due to the bigger compressor, the turbine spins slower for equal massflow, but on the other hand needs to be able to suplly more shaft power to the compressor at a slower speed.. I do not know how this will affect the turbine efficiency.. Alex do you have an idea how this will work out?

majesty78 said:

Maybe I understand something wrong.

But: If you make a hybrid bv50 by changing compressor wheel, how can turbine flow more then?

Click to expand...

Like you know turbine side have flow chart/map too, with stock turbo configuration with stock compressor wheel turbine side is not on its flow limit, so it can flow more gas. Unfortuntely for BV50 there is not available turbine flow chart and to see where is the limit you need to test. Fortunately BV50 hybrids are not new on tuning market, and there are a lot of results with them from different companies. I spoke with TurboDynamics UK and LOBA DE and both tell me that in the past they try to clip turbine wheel on BV50 hybrids, but dont reach difference in power only difference in lag, so they decide to dont done that because of no reason, such opinion have USA companies who made hybrids like Blouch turbo in example

are you sure that so large turbo can have PR over 3 ;-)
that's the domain of small, high pressure turbochargers as mine GT1646V ;-)
GT22 uses around 2200mbar on Audi V6 3.0TDi, which translates into PR2.5
larger turbo = more air flow but less pressure/PR

Unlikely. Big frame turbos s300v, hx55v etc do pr 4.5 with good efficiency.