VW's latest response about biodiesel in TDI

Kai

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Location
Kailua, Hawaii
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2004 Jetta TDI wagon manual; 2006 Jetta TDI sedan manual
Every so often I call, write, or email VWofA inquiring about biodiesel usage in the current model TDIs. I own 2004 and 2006 Jetta TDIs and have run them mostly on B100. I ordered a new Jetta TDI Sportwagen, but did not purchase it when I learned that the TDI JSW would not run any significant blend of biodiesel fuel. I love the JSW and was really disappointed . . .
This is my latest question to VW:
Is VW going to change the TDI motor to accommodate owners in states that mandate higher percentages of biodiesel at the pump than 5%? The TDI owner's manual says use of any higher blend than B5 can void the warranty, yet in some states B5 or less may not even available.
This is VW's answer:
Volkswagen is currently researching the suitability of higher percentage biodiesel blends; however, no conclusive decision has been reached at this time. Your feedback has been noted here at VW of America, and customer feedback is always an important factor in the production of future US models.
If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact Volkswagen Customer CARE at 1-800-822-8987, Monday through Friday, 8 a.m. - 6 p.m. your local time.
 

TomB

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Cle Elum, Washington/Las Vegas, Nevada
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2015 Audi TDI Prestige Sport
Every so often I call, write, or email VWofA inquiring about biodiesel usage in the current model TDIs. I own 2004 and 2006 Jetta TDIs and have run them mostly on B100. I ordered a new Jetta TDI Sportwagen, but did not purchase it when I learned that the TDI JSW would not run any significant blend of biodiesel fuel. I love the JSW and was really disappointed . . .
This is my latest question to VW:
Is VW going to change the TDI motor to accommodate owners in states that mandate higher percentages of biodiesel at the pump than 5%? The TDI owner's manual says use of any higher blend than B5 can void the warranty, yet in some states B5 or less may not even available.
This is VW's answer:
Volkswagen is currently researching the suitability of higher percentage biodiesel blends; however, no conclusive decision has been reached at this time. Your feedback has been noted here at VW of America, and customer feedback is always an important factor in the production of future US models.
If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact Volkswagen Customer CARE at 1-800-822-8987, Monday through Friday, 8 a.m. - 6 p.m. your local time.
Bottom line is NO. We have known that for quite a while. Calling customer service on this issue is pointless. The emissions equipment and the engineers do not want to change anything at this time since it costs $$$$.
 

highender

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Location
Northern California
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2012 Jetta TDI
VW states that with newer models, NO MORE than 5% biodiesel is allowed.

With the issues of the HPFP,. VW may even deny warranty on the engine if the fuel in your fuel tank exceeds 5%. Then you would be stuck with the $8000 to $10,000 repair bill.

I would not exceed 5% biodiesel in my 2012 VW jetta tdi.

I do think a little bit of biodiesel , way less than 5 % , would help lubricate the HPFP without getting into problems with warranty.

This is just my opinion, which may be wrong. Your opinion may vary ( YOMV).
 

hamilton7550

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2010 Golf TDI 2010 Jetta Sportwagon TDI.
WalMart bio diesel

I noticed at my local WalMart that the diesel pump now "warns" that 10 -20 % biodiesel may be in the pump tank...it's like an ethanol "warning" sticker.
 

Dieselfitter

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Edmonton Alberta
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I noticed at my local WalMart that the diesel pump now "warns" that 10 -20 % biodiesel may be in the pump tank...it's like an ethanol "warning" sticker.
States that are Mandating higher than 5% Bio-Diesel, while Knowing FULL WELL that VW Does not approve? ***
 

tditom

Top Post Dawg
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Jackson, MI
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formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
States that are Mandating higher than 5% Bio-Diesel, while Knowing FULL WELL that VW Does not approve? ***
I'm not sure if that is the case in Alabama, but it is true that some states are targeting higher and higher SME biodiesel content.

It would be one thing if VW were the only one, but MB and BMW along with a couple of US engine manufacturers also limit to 5% SME biodiesel.

Hopefully algae based alternative fuel will be price competitive someday, but in the meantime some states will really be limiting the operation of new diesels in their area.
 

Bob_Fout

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Indiana
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2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
States that are Mandating higher than 5% Bio-Diesel, while Knowing FULL WELL that VW Does not approve? ***
I'm not sure if that is the case in Alabama, but it is true that some states are targeting higher and higher SME biodiesel content.

It would be one thing if VW were the only one, but MB and BMW along with a couple of US engine manufacturers also limit to 5% SME biodiesel.

Hopefully algae based alternative fuel will be price competitive someday, but in the meantime some states will really be limiting the operation of new diesels in their area.
Gents,

TDIs (and other light-duty pax diesels) are such a small number of diesels in the US, they really don't care if VW (or BMW or MB) approves or not. B20 is approved for most medium and heavy duty diesels.
 

Bob_Fout

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2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
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cookeze

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Joined
Jan 24, 2012
Location
Sacramento, CA
TDI
2012 Passat
I realize this has been discussed at length, but I need to find some clarity on the biodiesel issue. Here in California, a biodiesel mix is not required, however B20 is pretty available. Propel Fuels indicates that many diesel manufactures like; GM, Ford, Chrysler & Cat approve the use of B20 even in their urea equipped vehicles. Propel says they have run extensive test using B20 and the fuel dilution issue just isn’t a problem. They’ve published a paper on this. It seems that HPFP issues would be reduced with the improved lubricity of biodiesel. Granted 2% or so is sufficient, but B20 is still beneficial so why not allow it.
The larger confusing issue to me is how can VW sell TDI’s in states like Illinois that require diesel fuel contain greater than 5% biodiesel. Is the VW warranty void or not? If it isn’t voided, then how can it be void at more than 5% in other states?
 

TDI smile

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2002 TDI (ALH) with 513,000 km. First Owner and very happy... No Problems, never left us stranded on the Highway. Average useage is about between under 4 ltr. and 5 ltr. Normal longdistance travel: 4.1/100
........................


VW, MB and BMW have no bearing on diesel in the US. Look at our cetane...

Cetane in Canada is min. 40
Germany 60
 

tditom

Top Post Dawg
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Location
Jackson, MI
TDI
formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
I realize this has been discussed at length, but I need to find some clarity on the biodiesel issue. Here in California, a biodiesel mix is not required, however B20 is pretty available. Propel Fuels indicates that many diesel manufactures like; GM, Ford, Chrysler & Cat approve the use of B20 even in their urea equipped vehicles. Propel says they have run extensive test using B20 and the fuel dilution issue just isn’t a problem. They’ve published a paper on this. It seems that HPFP issues would be reduced with the improved lubricity of biodiesel. Granted 2% or so is sufficient, but B20 is still beneficial so why not allow it.
The larger confusing issue to me is how can VW sell TDI’s in states like Illinois that require diesel fuel contain greater than 5% biodiesel. Is the VW warranty void or not? If it isn’t voided, then how can it be void at more than 5% in other states?
This is inaccurate. IL does not mandate >5%, they just have incentives for higher bd level. I know MN had a plan to mandate > B5 in the next few years, but that may be on hold.

Nothing to be confused about- your 2012 VW is still under warranty and if you run > B5 and subsequently have a problem, then VW will not cover it.

The future is in renewable diesel. SME biodiesel is not the answer. Hopefully we can see biomass diesel develop and scale up to be cost competitive in the next 5-10 yrs.
 

armylifer

Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2011
Location
Maple Valley, WA
TDI
2009 Jetta
I realize this has been discussed at length, but I need to find some clarity on the biodiesel issue. Here in California, a biodiesel mix is not required, however B20 is pretty available. Propel Fuels indicates that many diesel manufactures like; GM, Ford, Chrysler & Cat approve the use of B20 even in their urea equipped vehicles. Propel says they have run extensive test using B20 and the fuel dilution issue just isn’t a problem. They’ve published a paper on this. It seems that HPFP issues would be reduced with the improved lubricity of biodiesel. Granted 2% or so is sufficient, but B20 is still beneficial so why not allow it.
The larger confusing issue to me is how can VW sell TDI’s in states like Illinois that require diesel fuel contain greater than 5% biodiesel. Is the VW warranty void or not? If it isn’t voided, then how can it be void at more than 5% in other states?
I'd like to see what manual you are reading regarding your statement about GM allowing more than 5% biodiesel. My GM manual for my Duramax LMM engine says; "Biodiesel is produced from
vegetable oils or animal fat that have been chemically
modified to reduce the possibility of damage to your fuel
system and engine. Higher concentration (i.e., greater
than B5) biodiesel-containing fuels or the use of
unmodified bio-oils blended into diesel fuel at any
concentration is not recommended and could damage
your fuel system and engine. Such damage would not be
covered by your warranty. If there are questions about
the biodiesel-containing fuels you are using, contact your​
fuel supplier.
"

It's pretty clear to me that GM does not approve of biodiesel in any amount greater than 5%. I just called a friend of mine that owns a 2009 Ford with a Powerstroke engine and he says his manual also specifies no biodiesel greater than 5% too.

I'm not trying to call you out on your statement but I really want to know where you got your information from.
 

Honeydew

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 28, 2006
Location
Florida
TDI
13 Passat DSG
I just called a friend of mine that owns a 2009 Ford with a Powerstroke engine and he says his manual also specifies no biodiesel greater than 5% too.

I'm not trying to call you out on your statement but I really want to know where you got your information from.
I don't know about the other makes but the 09 PSD is the previous generation engine (6.4L) without urea. The 2011-on 6.7L PSDs have urea injection and allow up to 20% bio, it's even on the door badge.
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
I thought Illinois was a B2 mandate....
That's MN (or other northern state). IL has no state tax on bio over B10, so lots of stations sells B11 for less than B0 or sell B11 only.
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
I'd like to see what manual you are reading regarding your statement about GM allowing more than 5% biodiesel. My GM manual for my Duramax LMM engine says; "Biodiesel is produced from
vegetable oils or animal fat that have been chemically
modified to reduce the possibility of damage to your fuel
system and engine. Higher concentration (i.e., greater
than B5) biodiesel-containing fuels or the use of
unmodified bio-oils blended into diesel fuel at any
concentration is not recommended and could damage
your fuel system and engine. Such damage would not be
covered by your warranty. If there are questions about
the biodiesel-containing fuels you are using, contact your​
fuel supplier.
"

It's pretty clear to me that GM does not approve of biodiesel in any amount greater than 5%. I just called a friend of mine that owns a 2009 Ford with a Powerstroke engine and he says his manual also specifies no biodiesel greater than 5% too.

I'm not trying to call you out on your statement but I really want to know where you got your information from.
Post #8.
 

armylifer

Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2011
Location
Maple Valley, WA
TDI
2009 Jetta
Sorry but biodiesel.org is NOT authoritative when it comes to recommending what fuel to run in my vehicles. That site is a self serving advocate for biodiesel. The only authority I accept is the manufacturer. The biodiesel.org website will not reimburse me for damage to my fuel system or engine if I use biodiesel.
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
Sorry but biodiesel.org is NOT authoritative when it comes to recommending what fuel to run in my vehicles. That site is a self serving advocate for biodiesel. The only authority I accept is the manufacturer. The biodiesel.org website will not reimburse me for damage to my fuel system or engine if I use biodiesel.
Based on the info from biodiesel.org, there might be a way to search for information online. Some website that searches vast amounts of data based on criteria? :confused:

I found this within 5 minutes.

http://www.chevrolet.com/2012-silverado-2500hd-pickup-truck.html

http://www.chevrolet.com/2012-silverado-3500hd-pickup-truck.html

http://www.chevrolet.com/silverado-2500hd-pickup-truck.html
 
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armylifer

Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2011
Location
Maple Valley, WA
TDI
2009 Jetta
Okay, I'll play the game for awhile. Although this site deals with the TDI, this particular thread is dealing with biodiesel in generic terms so I assume that it is okay to comment on it's use in any vehicles. So, I hope that my comments are not considered a thread hijack. If anyone thinks it is, I apologize and I'll bow out if asked to by anyone. That said, I found the following on the new Duramax and biodiesel.

Validated and approved fuel
Extensive testing and validation was performed on the Duramax 6.6L using B20 that meets ASTM International's standard D7467, which covers biodiesel blends between B6 and B20.
"True biodiesel is created through transesterfication and that's what the Duramax 6.6L is designed to use," said Coleman Jones, GM biofuels implementation manager. "Strict testing and validation was performed to ensure the new engine is B20-capable, however approved biodiesel is the only way to guarantee engine performance and longevity."
The Duramax diesel is covered by GM's five-year/100,000 mile powertrain warranty.
To make the Duramax 6.6L and its fuel system compatible with B20, GM upgraded some seals and gasket materials to withstand the ester content of biodiesel and included an upgraded fuel filter that includes a coalescing element. It improves the separation of water that may be present in the fuel, because biodiesel can attract and absorb water. Also, additional heating of the fuel circuit was added to reduce the chance of fuel gelling or waxing that could plug filters.

Now, does anyone have any information on whether our TDI's have undergone any of the modifications that GM has done to make the Duramax biodiesel compatible? I think that VW has not wasted that kind of time or money to cater to a very small contingent of people that advocate biodiesel use. Also, how does one guarantee that the source you buy fuel from is meeting ASTM International's standard D7467? One more thing, even if it does meet specified standards biodiesel is extremely hydroscopic. Much more so than straight No. 2 diesel. So much more so that GM has an upgraded fuel filter that includes a coalescing element. I know that my 2009 TDI does not have one of those.

One last comment that I'll make is that I used to buy fuel from a station that advertised B-20. In my Silverado, I had my WIF light come on two times before I decided not to buy fuel from that station again. BTW, when I drained the water out of my fuel filter I had more than 6 ounces of water come out. The danger of introducing water in your fuel system is much greater with a biodiesel mix that using straight diesel and that alone is enough for me to not use it anymore.
 

booksgamesvideos

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Santa Ana(CA) and Lancaster(PA)
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beetle
States that are Mandating higher than 5% Bio-Diesel, while Knowing FULL WELL that VW Does not approve? ***
Just the same as some politicians want to raise the ethanol content to 15% even though many gasoline cars can only do 10%. The politicians don't give a damn about the people any more, or if the fuel eats the rubber hoses/gaskets. The politicians serve the megacorps now.
 
Last edited:

naturist

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Bro Jerry's hometown, Virginia
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2001 Jetta TDI, 2005 Jeep Libby CRD, 2012 BMW X5 35d
Just the same as some want to raise the ethanol content to 15% even though many gasoline cars can only do 10%. The politicians don't give a damn about the people only more, or if the fuel eats the rubber hoses/gaskets. The politicians serve the megacorps now.
It has NEVER been a requirement for the legislative process for the proposed legislation to (a) make logical sense, (b) have any relation whatever to the realm of possibility, (c) have any factual basis, or (d) be remotely related to being a good idea.
 

Kai

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Location
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2004 Jetta TDI wagon manual; 2006 Jetta TDI sedan manual
Aside on the new TDI (09+), there have been several threads on this site in which TDI owners have run B20 consistently without any issues. Yes, if something does go wrong in the fuel system etc., VW could deny warranty claims. But, again, there have been no reported problems. TDIsky is one of these B20 users. See his posts.
 

Ludicrous Speed TDI CUP

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Northern IN
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2010 TDI Cup, 06 Jetta TDI
From what I've talked to several guy's in the chat about this topic is that when the newer TDI's go into Re-gen they put extra diesel in the exhaust stroke which ends up down past rings into oil... diluting the oil with the bio-diesel over 10,000mi oil changes with the "VW Spec" oil will cause the oil not to be protective enough and do engine wear/damage.
With no re-gen and a good oil (Rotella T-6) there should be no problem running B-20.

Just had a F-450 in here "B-20" edition and it uses Rotella T-6 Oil.

The DPF and or Cat's over 100,000mi with using T-6 my clog "Maby"
The extra fuel of the re-gen cycle to clean the DPF is what's diluting the oil... .
With Re-gen disabled then there's not a problem.

This is how my car is currently setup and how I'm able to run B-20.
~Scott
 

Tap2112

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Bay Area, CA
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS 5sp (SOLD), 2002 Jetta GLS auto (gave to daughter), 2003 Jetta GLS Wagon 5 sp (SOLD), 2006 Jetta TDI PKG 2 with Nav
Not sure why biodiesel would leak into the oil while regular diesel does not?
If I were to run that stuff, I'd wait until the warranty period is over.
It is due to a small injection of fuel after the combustion stage. It is how the manufacturers chose to meet the new SMOG regulations. Regular diesel burns at a much lower temperature than biodiesel and the post combustion pressure and temps are not enough to completely burn the biodiesel, whereas it will burn the diesel #2 fuel.
 

kgall

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2012 Audi A-3
This thread clarifies the debate a bit for me. Thanks all!
As a newbie who has not run his TDI much outside Arkansas (except during our Eurodelivery period), are there places in the US and Canada where you can't get diesel without >5% biodiesel?
Or where it is hard to do so?
 

naturist

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Location
Bro Jerry's hometown, Virginia
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI, 2005 Jeep Libby CRD, 2012 BMW X5 35d
This thread clarifies the debate a bit for me. Thanks all!
As a newbie who has not run his TDI much outside Arkansas (except during our Eurodelivery period), are there places in the US and Canada where you can't get diesel without >5% biodiesel?
Or where it is hard to do so?
I understand that because of tax issues, Illinois may be such a place. There 11% seems to be the sweet spot fuel retailers try to hit. There may be others.

And I am one of those folks who's run non-DPF diesels (see my sig) for tens of thousands of mile on B20-B100, including both mine one winter on B50. Both are now around 150,000+ miles. I have had to replace the Jeep's cylinder head due to cracking due to overheating (while on straight petro-diesel, I might add) while towing, and I had to have the Jetta's IP rebuilt due to leaking seals. The Jeep's IP and injectors are what and as they came from the factory, which is significant because common-rail engines are supposed to be more sensitive to biodiesel than unit injection systems, like the Jetta.
 
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powerfool

Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
Indianapolis Metro Area
TDI
None anymore
Part of the problem with running higher percentages of biodiesel is the fuel nozzles. Considering that nearly all of the diesel engines in production use Bosch nozzles, for passenger vehicles (cars and trucks), I think they will tend to suffer the same results.

Its funny, because all of the biodiesel pushers discuss how it can be used in all diesel vehicles without modification. This is clearly not true.

Perhaps new nozzles that sit a bit further back could assist.
 
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