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VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) This is a general discussion about A4/MkIV Jetta (99.5-~2005), Golf(99.5-2006), and New Beetle(98-2006). Both VE and PD engines are covered here.

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Old September 17th, 2018, 21:26   #1
Dro.Pru
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Default Engine Stalling. Would like to bounce ideas.

Hello All.
New member here, I made an introduction in the appropriate thread. Link if you care to read it it.

Skip ahead to TLDR if you care less for details/background.[br]1[/br]
In October 2017, the timing belt on my 04 jetta (BEW) was nearly destroyed when the idler pulley seized, causing the nut at the end of the stud to shear off, getting stuck in between the crankshaft pulley and the timing belt, shearing half of the timing belt lengthwise. The timing belt had been replaced 50k prior and I honestly think it was a freak accident. Maybe the mechanic that did the TB in June 2015 didn't replace the idler, but either way it happened. The car had 241k miles.

Since then I have taken the head off, decided to rebuild it with new valves/valve seats. Had the head resurfaced. (Camshaft was replaced when the TB was done last) Then I decided to rebuild the block/ paint it. Had the block honed as well. I rebuilt the engine with new piston rings and bearings all around. (eventually I will do a full write up chronicling the entire process with pictures.)

ANYWAY, I put the car back on the road last week and I do have a few bugs with the car that I'm trying to resolve. Initially I had trouble starting up the engine; the fuel sender in the tank was not spinning under battery power, so I took that apart and the impeller was stuck, freed it, and checked if it spun under power. reassembled, back in tank. Even after priming the fuel filter there was a no start condition. Used a mityvac to draw fuel from the return of the tandem pump. NSC. the glow plug harness wasn't making proper contact via the bullet connectors on two of the GP, so i used a little jumper (read: wire with alligator clips) to bypass that for the time being (I plan on repairing/replacing). ENGINE STARTED!!

I had the engine idling as break-in procedure, but then once it got to operating temperature it cut out (about 15 minutes). It would start back up no problem. Took it for a test drive the next day, get to OT then stalls. Starts back up. Read through the forums and saw that ASV might be causing the issue. The next day I disconnected and went for a test drive that lasted longer than getting to operating temp. Unplugging the ASV seemed to do the trick.
Seeing that the engine was more reliable I felt comfortable commuting to work Monday. 20-25 miles, highway with traffic lights. I was doing about 40mph coming up to a light about 10 minutes in, we're at operating temperature now, car stalls. Get it going again, get to work with time to spare, decided to let it idle in the parking lot before I went into work. Car stalls (smoothly as if the ASV was connected but it wasn't). Didn't turn it back on since I had to go into the office anyway.

Drive home later no problems. I'm not stepping on it mind you. I've been changing gears much earlier than my typical spirited driving would like, about 200-2500. And I'm trying to not get it there too quickly either, so smooth accelerations. I get home and wanted to let it idle again, no problems but then after 15 minutes it cuts out again.

I was advised by a TDI friend to delete my EGR upon putting the whole thing back together again. I realize that there are mixed opinions on removing it. I live in NJ so they do not check the emissions on diesels, and I liked the idea of removing it to prevent sooty/dirty exhaust air from entering the intake theoretically being healthier for the engine. I also put in the larger passat tdi oil cooler. My thoughts on this were, that the lack of EGR and addition of the oil cooler would cancel each other out.

TLDR
From my understanding, the ASV throttles the intake whenever the ECU is introducing more exhaust gases. With the egr removed, I would think that the ASV would still close (partially or maybe fully) but since there is no EGR to replace the blocked airflow the car would stall. Removing the ASV from the equation should have solved the stalling issue I was having while driving and while idling. My question is if anyone things this is all related to EGR removal? Could getting a tune and taking the CEL out of the equation "fix" this problem.

I had intended of going to a stage 1 or 2 tune via Malone tuning once I have gone through the engine breaking in process for the first 500-1000 miles. With a tune deleting the EGR is a free add-on. Standalone it is about $100. I'd rather not spending the money on the egr delete if I can get it with the tune i plan on doing anyway. Nor do I want to get a tune too prematurely....

Some hings I haven't done yet:
  • Removed the ASV and check if the gears in it are worn.
  • performed a flow test on the previously stuck fuel sender to rule out a bad motor.
  • Used vcds to take logs of car performance and capture a stall. (currently don't have VCDS, I have an Actron Autoscanner with some data logging capabilities though. I'm not opposed to purchasing VCDS though, as it's something i've been contemplating for a while.)
  • checked timing for Cam sprocket in relation to crank sprocket. (when I did the timing belt job I was very meticulous and checked it over several times)

I'm looking for suggestions as to what you might think it could be. I am certainly no expert, But I tried to do as much research as possible and I truly appreciate any and all help!
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Old September 18th, 2018, 03:36   #2
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Step 1: get a proper scan tool (like VCDS). Should have had that right away.

Step 2: replace the lift pump already, stop dorking around with trying to "fix" it... just put the updated VDO unit in there and be done with it. If yours went almost a 1/4 million miles already, it did good, and owes you nothing.

The intake regulating flap, throttle flap, anti-shudder valve, whatever you want to call it, is almost certainly NOT causing your stalling. I doubt the EGR is either. The EGR is normally commanded on some at idle anyway. Without a scan tool we have no clue as to the operation of your EGR, but I doubt that is causing a stall.

If you have no DTCs, aside from those caused by shotgunning unplugging things, I would suspect maybe the crank sensor. When it stalls, does it restart right away? When it is running, does it have good power? Really sounds like your lift pump may not be working properly, and the tandem pump is too worn to take up the slack even if the system is primed.
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Old September 18th, 2018, 07:15   #3
Dro.Pru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer View Post
Step 1: get a proper scan tool (like VCDS). Should have had that right away.
Picking one up today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer View Post
Step 2: replace the lift pump already, stop dorking around with trying to "fix" it... just put the updated VDO unit in there and be done with it. If yours went almost a 1/4 million miles already, it did good, and owes you nothing.
touche'. duly noted. I was leaning toward the idparts motor replacement. saves $100-200.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer View Post
The intake regulating flap, throttle flap, anti-shudder valve, whatever you want to call it, is almost certainly NOT causing your stalling. I doubt the EGR is either. The EGR is normally commanded on some at idle anyway. Without a scan tool we have no clue as to the operation of your EGR, but I doubt that is causing a stall.

If you have no DTCs, aside from those caused by shotgunning unplugging things, I would suspect maybe the crank sensor. When it stalls, does it restart right away? When it is running, does it have good power? Really sounds like your lift pump may not be working properly, and the tandem pump is too worn to take up the slack even if the system is primed.
Thank you for the input. I will report back later today when I get home from work.
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Old September 18th, 2018, 16:10   #4
Dro.Pru
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I picked up VCDS, an online retailer is local to me and I can pick up same day.

Scanned the car. Here are the codes being displayed


This was with the engine off and keys in the ignition.


Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer View Post
. When it stalls, does it restart right away? When it is running, does it have good power? Really sounds like your lift pump may not be working properly, and the tandem pump is too worn to take up the slack even if the system is primed.
Yes it restarts right away. I'm still in the process of breaking in the engine after the rebuild so I haven't been stepping on it and asking for power.
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Old September 19th, 2018, 03:16   #5
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Just post the individual DTCs here.
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Old September 19th, 2018, 15:51   #6
Dro.Pru
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These are the codes I got today:

Quote:
Wednesday,19,September,2018,18:47:28:03799
VCDS Version: Release 18.2.1 (x64) Running on Windows 10 x64
www.Ross-Tech.com

Address 01: Engine Labels: 038-906-016-BEW.lbl
Control Module Part Number: 038 997 016 R HW: 028 101 114 6
Component and/or Version: R4 1,9L EDC G000SG 0282
Software Coding: 0150031
Work Shop Code: WSC 05244 444 91366
VCID: 2D070AAE6101D31FEA2-5184
6 Faults Found:

16791 - EGR Sensor 2
P0407 - 000 - Signal too Low
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 882 /min
Torque: 44.0 Nm
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Load: 0.0 %
Lambda: 0.0 %
Mass Air / Rev.: 235.0 mg/str
Mass Air / Rev.: 465.0 mg/str
Bin. Bits: 00000000

18996 - Turbocharger Boost Control Position Sensor Circuit
P2564 - 000 - Signal too Low
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 882 /min
Torque: 42.0 Nm
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Load: 0.0 %
Lambda: -8.9 %
Absolute Pres.: 1020.0 mbar
Absolute Pres.: 1050.6 mbar

19557 - Motor for Intake Manifold Flap (V157)
P3101 - 000 - Open or Short to Ground
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 882 /min
Torque: 42.0 Nm
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Load: 0.0 %
Voltage: 13.38 V
Bin. Bits: 00001000
Torque: 152.0 Nm
Torque: 0.0 Nm

17911 - Load Signal from Alternator Term. DF
P1503 - 000 - Implausible Signal
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 882 /min
Torque: 42.0 Nm
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Load: 0.0 %
Voltage: 13.45 V
Bin. Bits: 00001000
Load: 0.0 %
(no units): 0.0

16725 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40)
P0341 - 000 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 882 /min
Torque: 42.0 Nm
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Load: 0.0 %
Voltage: 13.45 V
Bin. Bits: 00001000
Idle Stabilization: 0.0°KW
(no units): 48.0

19558 - Motor for Intake Manifold Flap (V157)
P3102 - 000 - No Signal
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 0 /min
Torque: 0.0 Nm
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Load: 0.0 %
Voltage: 12.69 V
Bin. Bits: 00001100
Torque: 0.0 Nm
Torque: 110.0 Nm


Readiness: 1 3 1 1 1
I changed the fuel pump and primed it by cycling the key on and off several times. Started right up. Then after about 15 minutes it turned itself off.
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Old September 19th, 2018, 16:49   #7
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I would get the EDC wiring diagrams out and start looking for anything those items have in common as well as carefully checking all your wiring including the grounds.
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Old September 19th, 2018, 17:07   #8
Dro.Pru
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So after it stalled earlier. I tried to start it again. I had to crank it several times for several seconds. And it finally started after a stutter.

I will whip out the Bentley manual and check those schematics.
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Old September 19th, 2018, 20:10   #9
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I have a 2005 bew that has the egr deleted, no egr cooler and so on. I am not tuned yet, and I just get a code for insufficient flow. My car has never cut off. So I would think you could cross that off.
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Old September 19th, 2018, 20:59   #10
Dro.Pru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktmkris View Post
I have a 2005 bew that has the egr deleted, no egr cooler and so on. I am not tuned yet, and I just get a code for insufficient flow. My car has never cut off. So I would think you could cross that off.
Thanks ktmchris.
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Old September 19th, 2018, 21:03   #11
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I went for a drive and it stalled after a few minutes. then wouldn't want to start again. A friend had to come and tow us home. I was also taking logs at the time of engine groups 001, 002, 003. I don't know if that is helpful but it catch some stumbling and the stall if anyone would like to see it.
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Old September 20th, 2018, 03:50   #12
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I would not bother driving the car, as it clearly isn't reliable and has a problem.

I would check the wiring, and the grounds. You may also be able to just have the key ON, clear the DTCs, then cycle the key OFF then back ON, see what (if any) DTCs come right back. If none do, then with the key left ON, start wiggling around on the harness, especially at the ECU connection in the cowl.

You said you took the engine apart LAST YEAR, so depending on how and where the car was sitting all that time you could have water damage, rodent damage, or something of that nature. You could certainly have some gunk in the fuel system, but even if the lift pump was at fault, you'd have no DTCs as there is no monitoring for either the pump's circuit or the fuel pressure.

The EGR connector, intake flap connector, and VNT vane sensor connector, all go into a small subharness on the passenger side of the engine, and up into the cowl together near the coolant bottle area.

The CMP sensor goes into the engine harness along with most everything else on the engine proper, ultimately going around the other side of the engine bay. And of course you could just have a bad CMP sensor too.

I have never seen that alternator DTC, but the alternator has its own harness (the A/C harness is also in there) that goes to a connector on top of the starter area.
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Old September 22nd, 2018, 19:21   #13
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To many codes with 'Intermittent', 'Open or Short to Ground
' or 'RPM: 0 /min'

I also suspect wiring or bad ground.

If the ground cable under the battery is bad then anything that grounds to the body is bad.
The ECU grounds to the center of the firewall. Not sure if its in the engine compartment or under the cowl on your 04.

Also check fuses 29, 32, 34, and 34 inside the car.
Fuse 176 is above the battery. Check the connections are clean and tight.

When the engine was out were any wire harnesses twisted, stretched, or pinched?
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