Do It Yourself - Timing Belt Replacement Using the Mark and Pray Technique

SHOOOSH!



Great movie that one.

Sheesh. Even a stopped clock is right once a day.

I was looking at this guys website.. he has an a3 and a4 mark and pray method.. It's actually kinda sad that he feels the need to spread ignorance throughout the world.

paramedick said:

Sheesh. Even a stopped clock is right once a day.

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... make that twice a day ... (and depending on where it stopped, it may actually be correct one more time when daylight savings time is coming out of use...)

Truth be told, there are probably countless instances of so-called "mark and pray" timing belt changes being done by shops everywhere... Most of the time, although the engines are probably not running at optimum configuration, nothing catastrophic happens... As well, how many people out there actually keep a car long enough to need a 3rd or 4th timing belt change??

Yuri

PS: in case anyone gets the wrong idea, I strongly advocate using the proper lockdown tools and procedures...

FWIW,after I bought my TDI over 5 yrs. ago w/136k and original timing belt(for an AHU motor no less)-the VW guy I had do the TB I believe did a mark and pray(before I knew any trusted mechanics) and it was alright for over a year until the pump started to leak.....do to your car what you want,but the TB is one thing that a trusted person is going to do on my car-oops,I have 63k and climbing on this belt......

darkscout said:

I've also had unprotected sex and not contracted any diseases.

Unprotected sex for all!

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(outdated joke, sorry) HEE-Hee!

Mark and Pray Timing Belt Update:

Wow, I just looked back at the original date of this post, it's been 6 years... Thank You TDI Club members for all you have shared over the years! This is always the first place I look for information and solutions for my TDI questions. Whether you support this technique or not, I am providing full disclosure of the unofficial timing belt removal and replacement procedures I performed on two TDI's in 2007.

Car 1: My son's 1998 Jetta TDI, the odometer on the car I first wrote about on TDIClub.com just turned over 100,000 miles. It is in great shape, gets low miles because my kids are students at a local university, but I just received new struts and shocks since one rear strut/shock had failed.

Car 2: My 2002 Jetta TDI has 205,000 mile and just received it's second timing belt using the M&P technique! The water pump started to weep and squeek and while I was in there, I replaced the belt, tensioner, pulleys and bolts. So, I am just reporting that both my initial timing belt projects are/were successful, and I have just installed another replacement timing belt (the third one) on this vehicle.

It has been my pleasure to receive thank you notes from places all around the world... for showing how this can be performed easily, people in less developed areas of the world with basic tools, technology and techniques have apparently utilized and benefited from this thread too.

Hook up VCDS to any M&P car and the timing will be out of wack, I guarantee it. It literally takes fractions of a mm to change the IP timing a few degrees. Even with lock down tools it will be close but never exact. Number of teeth doesn't mean squat when you have belt stretch and different brand belts.

Mark and pray is dumb as hell in these engines. Not only do you not know if the timing is correct to begin with, you don't know if its correct when you end. Its like shooting a gun in the dark and hoping you don't hit somebody.Seriously get a drill bit and a flat piece of steel and you will be 100X better off than M&P.

I wouldn't even do M&P on my cousin's 03 2.slo. There's marks clearly visible once you take off the timing belt cover. If you are too lazy to put the engine at TDC then you should not be working on cars period.

Sorry if I am harsh but that's the truth. I have NO tolerance for plain doing things wrong and then trying to assure ones self its ok. If you are doing it wrong, admit you are doing it wrong. M&P is wrong. It may work, it may not but its still wrong.

To me, it's like working without a torque wrench (which I did when I was 16). It often works.

Graham

Hello all my TDI friends. We are all very fortunate to have such a wonderfully active forum to share experiences and learn from others. Here I am again to provide full disclosure on this thread.

Many who apparently do not understand the physics, have criticized and lambasted me in this thread. No problem. Thank You.

This week I received the 1998 Jetta back from my child who had gone out east. I began to investigate if it was time for a timing belt. I came here to tdiclub.com to review my posts and only then did I realize that I had replaced the belt in my kids' car at 76,500 mileage, way back in 2007. It is October 2017 now, and the car has 161,000 miles on it. So, I just ordered a timing belt kit aus Deutchland, nicht aus China and will put it on next weekend.

I do plan to use the Mark and Pray method again. I do not see any need to "Pray" using the methodical approach to swapping out the belt while the engine is TDC and the injection pump is locked in place...and all markings are accurately and clearly made.

I don't want to offend anyone, but I had laugh to myself when I read comments about resulting timing problems, even when tooth for tooth, cog for cog the belt is identical and identically placed, yet the VagCOM values were unchanged. I swear, the car never knew I removed the old belt and slopped a new one in it's place.

Low and behold, I have been to many lesser developed countries overseas since 2007, and I can assure you that this method is nothing new to mechanics in any of them. I was even shown home-made tensioner wrenches that were very similar to the one I made for my projects.

I promise to not promote this method to others, but I did want to provide feedback in this forum to the non-believers. I had No reason to believe there would be a problem... and there was not a problem. No magic, no mystery.

Aren't you just wonderful?

One of Dark scouts old threads where many of the disasters that did happen were a direct result of M&P.

darkscout said:

Newbies, do not go to the dealer. They don't know how to work on your car. They are over priced and cut corners. They won't do all the parts necessary for a timing belt. In general they will just mess your car up. There is sticky about "Gurus" look them up and make friends. Driving 4-5 hours to see a guru to have a timing belt done every 100k (or 60k depending) is MUCH cheaper than taking it to the dealer, including fuel and time. That's just the upfront costs. You'll also save $1-5k on a new head or engine when the dealer timing belt breaks.

I don't have time to follow all threads on the forum, if you see something that falls into category send me a PM so I can add it. I'd like to concentrate everything in this first post.

Timing Belts:
another botched timing belt job
Problems after replacing timing belt
What to expect when a Dealer does a Timing Belt Job
Dealer timing belt change
Timing belt mess
98 jetta tdi that "runs away"
Default engine hesitating after timing belt replaced and engine decarbonized (Look at the Parts List)
Default Timing Belt Replacement, Dealer Quote: $1500
Default Dealer Replaced Timing Belt, Now Replacing Engine
Dealer changed timing belt - now no power
Mississauga VW Stealership Boycott
Default help possible dealer issues
Help me prioritize deferred maint. on our used '00 Golf
HELP...

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Threads about failures from doing the procedure correctly: Zero, none, zilch Nada........

other than, years ago, having been quite entertaining and somewhat informative, the old M&P way of swapping a timing belt seems ineffective, perhaps cumbersome, and in the same frame can lead to disaster. ^for instance. all you need is a few tools, which if you can M&P, you ll already have the basic tools. you need a cam lock (of one type or another), oh yea i dont want to forget here, feeler gauges. you in the same kind (of one type or another) need a pump lock. other than that most of your tools are basic tools you already have used/have, it would seem. one thing you need a smart way to 'smack' off cam gear. advice, using a 1/4"punch, or proper drift, use a plastic hammer. other than that you need a few parts, at least 2 or 3 seals(i prefer the silicone type, i dont know if the new viton applies here), an o-ring, for im shaft seal carrier, and oh yea dont forget the water pump, and related items. in addition you may want a new thermostat, and with that you ll want a new thermo flange, about $6 from napa, seems ok, and an o-ring for here as well.

other than that you need vag-com to finish the job off, its not cheap.

i had forgot to mention; for the water pump, dont forget the metal gasket! you may be able to find for $5bucks, usually find for $10buck$.

All I can say is, it is real expensive when you make a mistake.

98tdicolo said:

All I can say is, it is real expensive when you make a mistake.

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translation...........the crowd has spoken...

good luck, hope your prayers are answered in a positive way, again........

Two problems I see.

Belt length tolerances as was mentioned above.

Properly tensioning the belt when the cam gear can't float. The tensioner spring isn't strong enough to move the cam and set the right tension.

I wouldn't hesitate to do it if I had to but I'd put some torque on the cam to help the tensioner.

I don't see that it saves much time or trouble.

I would be interested to see before/after timing graphs but not enough to do it twice myself. I don't suppose the OP has VCDS.

KLXD said:

I don't see that it saves much time or trouble.

I would be interested to see before/after timing graphs but not enough to do it twice myself. I don't suppose the OP has VCDS.

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It will take more time and gives Murphy more opportunities to screw things up. There are a lot of folks that can't get their head around the fact that Spending $100 to save $5 is just bad math.

I've done 3 timing belts with all the goodies that go with them. I have the tools and VCDS. Now having said that, I have another special tool! I keep Steve Addy on speed PM. Works for me.

Col Sanders said:

I've done 3 timing belts with all the goodies that go with them. I have the tools and VCDS. Now having said that, I have another special tool! I keep Steve Addy on speed PM. Works for me.

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Ben, you are too funny...lol

In the end it's hard to justify the 'mark-n-pray' tactic on the Mk3/B4 cars, the tools are inexpensive and it's really not that hard to find a member with a vagcom who won't come to your aid when you're done.

The only reason someone would advocate 'mark-n-pray' is just to be contrary, and some people just like to be that way. In this case though it can get you in to trouble pretty fast.

The VW procedure is there for a reason and it's not tough to follow.

Steve

I agree about the procedure being easy to use. I've done timing belts without the tools, but did lock the IP and cam, watching the crank mark. It's still the same proper procedure. The procedure is just that, a methodology used that produces a consistent result. Anyone who has done a number of these knows you can't fine tune your marks enough to get it exact and all new parts have variances different from used parts. Will it run? Yes. Will it run the best it can? No. So, like the CRAP parts and injector balancing, if 'close enough' is good enough, then drive on and be happy. But if knowing it's dead on is your goal, that is achieved using the proper procedure, tools, and quality parts.

I did 11 timing belts in one calendar year (and was looking for #12 but no one needed a free timing belt change at the time) and had to adjust half the cars using the Vag-Com. But every one was dead perfect when finished. The point is that playing the odds will sometimes afford a win, but not every time like doing it correctly. It takes me about 2 hours for a timing belt and that includes pulling the cam for inspection, so how much time does not following the procedure really benefit you? Just food for thought.

Correct. history can speak for it's self.

• FUBARs from M&P = several as reported here.
• FUBARS from using the VW recommended procedure = Zero.

I AM THE ORIGINAL POSTER HERE: FINAL POST

It has been 14 years since I first posted to this forum and installed my first timing belt.

I just Sold the car to a TDI club member and it ran great. I had gotten rusty from living in Minneapolis, then in Iowa, and Pennsylvania, then back to Iowa again.

The new buyer flew in yesterday and proceeded to drive it over 850 miles to his home, and arrived there Today (next day) without an issue.

It takes a lot of patience to wait 14 years to toot your own horn.

paramedick said:

Sheesh. Even a stopped clock is right once a day.

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Twice a day unless it's military time.

I would procrastinate if I just could get started.