www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You

Order your TDIClub merchandise and help support TDIClub


Go Back   TDIClub Forums > TDI Model Specific Discussions Areas > VW B5 Passat TDIs

VW B5 Passat TDIs This is a general discussion about B5 Passat(>98 (2004-2005 in North America)). Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 23rd, 2008, 10:12   #1
FollowTheBlackRabbit
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Waldorf, MD
Default Does anyone know BHW manual trans swap

Does anyone know which 5 or 6 speed manual transmission would bolt up to a BHW 2.0 PD TDI?

I love my 05 variant, but i hate the fact that its an auto...

I know id need to fab up/source slave cylinder stuff and pedal cluster, but I think the main thing is figuring out which trans code matches...

Anyone?
__________________

05 TDI Passat variant -UNchained
03 Dodge 2500 Cummins
04 Victory Vegas
FollowTheBlackRabbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 23rd, 2008, 10:16   #2
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut Vendor
 
oilhammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: St Louis
Fuel Economy: fantastic
Default

Nothing imported to the US will work. You can bolt in all the 1.8t stuff, but it will be geared too low.

I hate slushboxes too, but that is the only way we got the B5 TDIs. Good news, though, the 01V transmission is the ZF 5HP-19FLA and is a pretty stout unit. They seem to hold up well.

Recoding them to sport mode helps with better shift mapping IMHO.
__________________
oilhammer
www.cardocautomotive.com
oilhammer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 23rd, 2008, 11:00   #3
FollowTheBlackRabbit
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Waldorf, MD
Default

yeah, i started playing with the VAG-com yesterday seeing which controllers i can play with.

I know the 01Z is a POS, but the 01V is white a bit better (can handle the W8)

I just keep reaching for a clutch only to not find one...

Even if a correctly geared manual is in.. say.. Canada, it might almost be worth the freight
__________________

05 TDI Passat variant -UNchained
03 Dodge 2500 Cummins
04 Victory Vegas
FollowTheBlackRabbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 23rd, 2008, 11:18   #4
TDIsyncro
Veteran Member
 
TDIsyncro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Saskatoon, SK
TDI(s): Audi/TDI x 2
Fuel Economy: 50-60mpg HWY, depending on speed and wind
Default

You can bolt up any of the Audi front wheel drive trannies - 01A variants..not sure what you need to do for the tranny mounts..may be plug and play, may be not. You can try swapping in a 3rd gear from a parts tranny to your 5th, but reverse the shaft sides...might work..otherwise you are looking at around 1500.00 for a 5 speed import or 2500.00 for a 6 speed import with TDI gears. Scott DeWitt has regular shipments of this stuff. Not sure who else. You can use Audi 1.8T flywheel and pressure plate. It will bolt right up and work with your starter, crank face and tranny spline.
__________________
2001 Audi A4 - New Project - 2.0TDI CR 450HP All Turbo
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=270527
2007 Canyon w/2011 TDI CJAA CR
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=415533
TDIsyncro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 23rd, 2008, 12:18   #5
JungleDeath
Veteran Member
 
JungleDeath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Reno, NV, USA
Fuel Economy: Pretty Damn Good
Default Sell this idea to my wife please...

So on the fence with this same idea...

Scott DeWitt is the guy to talk to: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=233879

I will get back to this thread when I get the info (I wrote it all down)...but,

NA W8 Passat's came with 6 speeds (rare)
NA V6 Passats and Audi's came with 5 speeds and come close to TDi ratios, but not quite (not so rare).

I have to research more Audi trans stuff.

Compare a rebuilt 5/6 speed from a NA V6 gas Passat/Audi with the correct gears or ring gear. It may be worth having one rebuilt/custom built and put some sort of diff lock in there like a Quaife, Peloquin, Torsen, or Wavetrack.

There are some yards that package together tranny swaps; find them. Scott is one of them AND is quite knowledgeable with TDi's. Keep that in mind.

It will be the little crap (brackets, cables, mounts) that will get you. Also don't forget an ecu that speaks manual tranny, not auto tranny.
__________________
2011 JSW "$" 2000 Golf "The Burner" 2007 Suzuki DRZ 400 SM "Fart Knocker"
JungleDeath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 23rd, 2008, 13:06   #6
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut Vendor
 
oilhammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: St Louis
Fuel Economy: fantastic
Default

There actually was a manual version listed in ETKA in parts lookup, but no actual engine in the engine list. Essentially, that engine (a 2.0L 8 valve PD TDI) was never bolted to a manual transmission in any market anywhere. ETKA does show the BGW engine listed for manual trans versions (essentially a BHW without the balance shafts) but that engine is not in the engine list.

As I understand it, B5 TDIs in Europe, if equipped with a manual, are a 1.9L, a 16v 2.0L PD (which bolts to a 6 speed), or the V6 TDI, which is a different bolt pattern anyways.

The 1.8t B5 stuff is the closest thing you'll have, but like I said the gearing would not be favorable to the BHW's nearly 250 pounds of twist at only 1900 RPMs.

The engine ECU could likely be recoded, that is not a problem. VAG uses the same ECUs in manual or auto cars, they just have different soft coding.
__________________
oilhammer
www.cardocautomotive.com
oilhammer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 23rd, 2008, 19:40   #7
leicaman
Veteran Member
 
leicaman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sheboygan, Wisconsin
Fuel Economy: Much better than the average car... :o)
Default

I think the best would be for you to hope VW sends us the B6 with a manual and a TDI. Of course that is probably a pipe dream.
__________________
2015 Golf SE TDI with DSG, 88k.
and formerly a 2005 Passat GLS TDI - RIP, 208k miles. Many good memories and friends made with this car.
leicaman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26th, 2008, 10:55   #8
PlaneCrazy
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Province of Quebec, Canada
TDI(s): Gone...
Default

I just ended up getting a B6 2.0T 6-sp manual. With the cost of diesel these days, my operating costs are about equal to my wife's B5.5 TDI anyway. Somewhat less torque (207 vs 247), but quite a bit more hp (200 vs 134), so the result is that the car is considerably quicker. The torque curve is at least similar to a TDI in that it peaks at around 1800 rpm; however unlike the TDI, the party lasts until 5000 rpm

Summer fuel economy is in the mid-30s highway. Tank range, up to 600 miles.

There are pretty good deals on 2.0T Passat Trendline wagons these days. Better pick up a 2008 quick though, in the US, in 2009, there will only be automatics in US Passats except the CC. Up here in Canada we're more fortunate, we can still get manuals in 2009 on all 2.0T trims.
__________________
Mike
Hers: '17 Golf TSI Sportwagen 5-MT
His: '18 Sportwagen 6-MT 4MOTION
'16 Marinoni Genius/Campy Record, '94 Marinoni Special/Campy Record
PlaneCrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26th, 2008, 11:29   #9
johnboy00
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bridgewater,Ma.,USA
Default

Possible, but expensive.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=222316

Contact Scott_Dewitt for details.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/member.php?u=20752
__________________
John
2005 Passat Wagon
2004 Jetta Auto
2003 IBW
1999.9 Golf (for parts)
johnboy00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26th, 2008, 20:48   #10
volkswagendude
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer
I hate slushboxes too, but that is the only way we got the B5 TDIs. Good news, though, the 01V transmission is the ZF 5HP-19FLA and is a pretty stout unit. They seem to hold up well.

Recoding them to sport mode helps with better shift mapping IMHO.
Oilhammer, based on the transmission code name you posted, this is the same transmission used on the following VW/Audi cars: 5HP19FLA = A4 (quattro 1.8, 2.8), S4 (quattro 2.7), A6 (quattro 2.7, 2.8, 3.0 ), Allroad (quattro 2.7), VW Passat W8 4motion, Input Torque = 420 Nm (~310 Ft/Lb).

Many of these Audi cars are frequently chipped to at least 380 lb-ft of torque!

But then there are people on these forums who suggest that an RC3 would be too much torque for our B5.5 transmissions(adds 90 lb-ft over stock figure), including Jeff(Rocketchip) himself. Now I'm confused....
volkswagendude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27th, 2008, 15:18   #11
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut Vendor
 
oilhammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: St Louis
Fuel Economy: fantastic
Default

Yes, the Audi A4/S4 rides on the same platform as the B5 Passat and uses the same transmission.

The Audi A6 rides on a bigger platform, and not sure which the 6 cyl versions get, but the V8s get the ZF 5HP-22 (VAG number 01L) which is a bigger but similar transmission to the ZF 5HP-19 series.

The easiest way to tell the difference is the number of ribs on the bottom of the front differential area. The 22 has a couple more than the 19, but I cannot remember just how many each has.

Keep in mind that handling the output of the engine is also somewhat dictated by what RPMs that output is achieved. It is MUCH harder to keep a TC clutch locked in place behind 200 lbs of torque at 2000 RPMs as it would be to keep it locked at 200 lbs at 3000 RPMs, because the higher the RPMs, the higher the ATF pressure can potentially be.
__________________
oilhammer
www.cardocautomotive.com

Last edited by oilhammer; December 27th, 2008 at 15:22.
oilhammer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 27th, 2008, 20:28   #12
volkswagendude
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Canada
Default

^^^The last two lines you wrote are excellent points!

Here is something that I forgot to copy and paste from this Audi Wiki page concerning the aforementioned transmission(s). I'm sorry to dwell on this, but it's just that I really want to know what our transmissions are capable of, and which variation our TDI's do have. The ZF 5HP-19FLA was already mentioned up above, but there seems to be one other one without the letter A in the end. The one without the letter A is a weaker one as far as potential maximum power capabilities are concerned. Here is the copy and paste of the info.

B5 A4/S4 (ZF 5HP19FL and ZF 5HP19FLA)

There are two different automatic transmissions in the B5 A4s. In 1998, Audi introduced the Tiptronic feature. There was no change to the transmission, only the control module and shifter. If your A4 is Frontrak (front wheel drive) you have the ZF 5HP19FL tranny. If your A4 is quattro or you have an S4 you have the ZF 5HP19FLA. The 5HP19FLA in the quattro cars is designed to handle more torque than the 5HP19FL in the Frontrak cars.
Max Torque Specs:
5HP19FL = A4 (1.8, 2.8), A6 (2.8), A8 (3.7) Input Torque = 310 Nm (~ 228 Ft/Lb)
5HP19FLA = A4 (quattro 1.8, 2.8), S4 (quattro 2.7), A6 (quattro 2.7, 2.8, 3.0 ), Allroad (quattro 2.7), VW Passat W8 4motion, Input Torque = 420 Nm (~310 Ft/Lb)

Many people have said that the B5 A4 auto tranny is weak. Some people say the transmission is a lot stronger than most people say. Let me put forth some reasoning on the subject.
Some people that believe the A4 auto tranny is weak don't realize there are two different versions. Looking at the torque specs listed above, it is obvious that the Frontrak transmission is weaker than the quattro transmission.
The A4 quattro 5HP19FLA transmission is also used in the B5 S4 cars. They are frequently chipped to 382lb-ft torque (APR chip) and run just fine for years. One person (Cole on Audizine) claims 431lb-ft of torque to the wheels on his S4 with an upgraded torque converter. The only known differences between stock B4 A4 quattro and B5 S4 transmissions are the gear ratio and the torque converter.
A lot of people don't think about upgrading transmission components on the automatic transmissions when they start putting a lot of torque down. With a manual transmission, wouldn't you expect the clutch to start slipping and need an upgrade when you start putting down some real power? The same goes for the automatic transmission. When you upgrade the torque converter and valve body in the transmission it can handle a lot more power safely.

The rest of the article can be found here. http://www.audiwiki.net/Automatic_Transmission

So with all that Oilhammer, I wanted to assume 100%, that our B5.5 Passat TDI has the "FLA" one and NOT the "FL" tranny. If so, then this will make me feel MUCH BETTER that my car is not equipped with the more durable stick, and I MIGHT just as well take the tuning on the car a smidgen further than the RC2 and upgrade the turbo when this one(if ever) decides to bite the dust.
volkswagendude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28th, 2008, 08:19   #13
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut Vendor
 
oilhammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: St Louis
Fuel Economy: fantastic
Default

I believe they all say 'FLA' on the trans tag, as in 1998 they changed some stuff on those ZF autoboxes. The changes mainly were to the valve body, as there were some plugs that could loosen up and drop out causing all sorts of problems. And of course they added the Tip feature, but that is all on the control side, nothing internal to the trans.

There is virtually no internal differences to the FWD or AWD 5HP-19 transmissions, so I am not sure how one would be able to handle more output that the other. In fact, I bet you could remove the rear housing of the FWD unit and bolt on the rear housing with the rear drive flange and convert them over, they are otherwise identical. All the internals are the same.

I have however not had any of these particular units apart, as I have never had any reason to. I have replaced a couple output shaft speed sensors. I did see one fail due to a severely smashed pan that broke the filter pickup tube and resulted in ATF starvation.
__________________
oilhammer
www.cardocautomotive.com
oilhammer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 29th, 2008, 10:48   #14
JungleDeath
Veteran Member
 
JungleDeath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Reno, NV, USA
Fuel Economy: Pretty Damn Good
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlaneCrazy
...snip...I just ended up getting a B6 2.0T 6-sp manual. With the cost of diesel these days, my operating costs are about equal to my wife's B5.5 TDI anyway. Somewhat less torque (207 vs 247), but quite a bit more hp (200 vs 134), so the result is that the car is considerably quicker. The torque curve is at least similar to a TDI in that it peaks at around 1800 rpm; however unlike the TDI, the party lasts until 5000 rpm ...snip...
The dyno's I have seen (06-08 GTi's,) do not have a torque peak at 1800. It's more like 3400-3600. The dyno's also do not start till 2500 which is approx 175lb-ft. At 4500 rpms, the 2.0T is generating @ 225lb-ft, after chip tune, which may be more or less than the TDi at the same rpm.
The 2.0T is a mean little motor. Simple chip tunes make them even meaner.

With RC2, I'm guessing I'm at 160/290. If your wife is not tuned, she should be. If she was, you may see things differently as far as performance matching is concerned between the two.

A manual trans would make this car so-much-more fun to drive. It would feel a lot faster...not what I need.
__________________
2011 JSW "$" 2000 Golf "The Burner" 2007 Suzuki DRZ 400 SM "Fart Knocker"

Last edited by JungleDeath; December 29th, 2008 at 11:27.
JungleDeath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 29th, 2008, 11:06   #15
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut Vendor
 
oilhammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: St Louis
Fuel Economy: fantastic
Default

And the 2.0t has been replaced with another 2.0t....the latter of which I am not so thrilled with but we'll see how they hold up. It is a totally different family of engines, BTW.
__________________
oilhammer
www.cardocautomotive.com
oilhammer is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:15.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.17200 seconds with 10 queries
[Output: 133.56 Kb. compressed to 111.74 Kb. by saving 21.83 Kb. (16.34%)]