New clutch gear rattle/chatter

Joined
Sep 11, 2011
Location
Everywhere
TDI
'15 GSW tdi
Hey Guys,

So I was experiencing some DMF shudder, and replaced the clutch with a DKM stage 2 kit. I only have about 200 miles into the break in period, but i'm experience gear rattle at idle - clutch up. Obviously, I was expecting this.

However, I'm also experience gear noise/chatter while driving in gear. It sounds the loudest in 1-3, and calms down significantly in 4-6. I've notified the shop who advised to let it go for 1000 miles, and if it didn't get better they would call DKM.

Has anyone experienced this with an aftermarket clutch on these cars?

Thanks
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Both ECS and UROTuning say that clutch is for TSI engines only. Wonder if it transmits too much combustion shock to the transmission in TDIs. SMFs with 02Q transmissions and TDIs seem to be problematic, both in noise and synchro wear.
 
Joined
Sep 11, 2011
Location
Everywhere
TDI
'15 GSW tdi
Both ECS and UROTuning say that clutch is for TSI engines only. Wonder if it transmits too much combustion shock to the transmission in TDIs. SMFs with 02Q transmissions and TDIs seem to be problematic, both in noise and synchro wear.

I dealt directly with a shop that is a DKM dealer. There was significant communication between the two, and they knew the car was a tdi. So, I'm hoping that isn't the case. Originally I wanted the MS kit- twin disc setup, but the part was on backorder and delayed. DKM responded by advising this MB kit would work, and would still support 440 lb ft of torque at the wheels. So, instead of waiting and risking a big issue with a failed DMF, I had them get the MB kit.



www.fixmyvw.com shows the MS kit on their site, and has it in their own cars. If it doesn't go away after the mileage break in, i'll be back in contact with the shop to have them reach out to DKM.
 

740GLE

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Location
NH
TDI
2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
Do you have a part number for the DKM? whats the weight of it?

Max torque is moot if it's shaking your syncros to death.

Might want to look into a fluid damper.
 
Joined
Sep 11, 2011
Location
Everywhere
TDI
'15 GSW tdi
Do you have a part number for the DKM? whats the weight of it?

Max torque is moot if it's shaking your syncros to death.

Might want to look into a fluid damper.

The installed kit was MB-034-142. i'm barely over 200 miles into the breakin. Hopefully, it just gets better. I took a look on fluid dampers website, but don't see anything for the '15 tdi
 
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[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
However, I'm also experience gear noise/chatter while driving in gear. It sounds the loudest in 1-3, and calms down significantly in 4-6.
shift later

too much torque for the rotating assembly's moment of inertia is what causes the noise. So the easiest solution is to get your power through at higher RPM.

Not a huge help for long term, but hey. Make up a heavier flywheel. ;)
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
Max torque is moot if it's shaking your syncros to death.
I haven't seen anyone post pics of the actual failure mode, just that it damages them over time.
I'd imagine the locking angle on the back side of the dog teeth wears away from the cyclic loading and it eventually pops out of gear? The actual synchronizer clutch isn't something that would be doing anything while the noise is being produces, so I wouldn't expect the friction lining to be affected.
 
Joined
Sep 11, 2011
Location
Everywhere
TDI
'15 GSW tdi
Well, I have about 3700 miles on the clutch. The resonance is still there while under load between 1800-2200rpm, albeit to a lesser degree. The gear rattle at idle is still there.

However, as of this morning, I’m grinding into 1st gear. Sometimes throwing it into 2nd and then going into first helps. Other times it just grinds. I’m thinking 1st gear syncro is gone. Not super happy about the situation
 

Rrusse11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Location
PA Deutsch Country
TDI
2002 Golf, 5spd; 05 Jeep CRD
The problem is that the "new & improved" 6spd gearbox has steel synchros, which the SMF compounds. Not sure if you have the 02m, but the 02j 5spd has brass syncros, which are more forgiving to the increased vibration.



I had a Mk6, which after a SBC SMF install, was clearly going to eat

itself. I installed a Fluidampr, not cheap, but it certainly did the job
of soaking up a lot of the diesel vibrations.


On my Mk4 I got lucky and managed to find a used Fluidampr, which while technically was not necessary, quietened the gearbox to the extent that the difference between clutch in/out is barely perceptible. Next clutch job I'd like to shave a couple #s off the
flywheel for improved responsivness, and pay the price for increased harmonics in the gears.



You're up for some expensive tranny repairs. I believe that SBC is
now offering a "quiet clutch" SMF kit. Spring loaded to deal with

some of the excess harmonics through the gearbox, and suspect synchros.







 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
The problem is that the "new & improved" 6spd gearbox has steel synchros, which the SMF compounds. Not sure if you have the 02m, but the 02j 5spd has brass syncros, which are more forgiving to the increased vibration.
I'm not sure it's the actual blocker rings that are being damaged, all the pictures I see seem to be the three detent keys falling out of the input dog clutch hub, those pieces are hardened steel on every transmission I've encountered.
 

Wayne64SS

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2011
Location
here
TDI
none
Well, I have about 3700 miles on the clutch. The resonance is still there while under load between 1800-2200rpm, albeit to a lesser degree. The gear rattle at idle is still there.
However, as of this morning, I’m grinding into 1st gear. Sometimes throwing it into 2nd and then going into first helps. Other times it just grinds. I’m thinking 1st gear syncro is gone. Not super happy about the situation
I have a 14 and the same clutch... and am in the same boat with the exception that i lost synchros in all gears 1-4. Started with first and will gradually progress. The fluidampr won't help.... I put one on long before I lost any gears and it didn't do **** for the resonance from 1700-2200 or the rattle at idle. Clearly didn't prevent any loss of synchros.

I can't find any info on upgrading the synchros in this trans to brass.. so my options are to A) toss the single mass in the scrap bin and buy a darkside DMF and upgraded clutch and fix / replace trans or B) swap to an 02M but i haven't done enough research to see what this entails i may need a different clutch anyway i guess the bellhousing isn't as deep...

Some thing to note... I put a SMF conversion kit in a customers car when his dmf failed from IDPARTS - https://www.idparts.com/speed-smf-clutch-flywheel-conversion-kit-p-7062.html and there was far less rattle at idle and the flywheel was significantly lighter than that in the DKM clutch. I'd be tempted to try this setup before returning to a DMF if I hadn't already pooched the synchros.
 

KERMA

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 23, 2001
Location
here
TDI
99 beetle and 04 jetta
the problem with shudder in the TDIs is in the engine controller N O T the transmission and N O T because "the stock DMF clutch can't handle it"

100% handled in the tune.
 

Wayne64SS

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2011
Location
here
TDI
none
if you're saying that the vibration / resonance between 1700-2200 is from the tune and that if I buy a tune from you it will disappear i'm all ears. I used to be a long time customer of kerma, I had your tunes on every tdi I've owned except this one.
 

KERMA

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 23, 2001
Location
here
TDI
99 beetle and 04 jetta
I guess only one way to find out for sure ;)

PM please
 

740GLE

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Location
NH
TDI
2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
Why PM when its been an open discussion regarding "shudder" on the '15 for quite some time?

Is it adjusting the post combustion injections? and or a sort of scaling factor isn't taken into account? Inquiring minds want to know!

If a tune just neuters peak torque is "the solution" i really wouldn't call it a solution.
 

KERMA

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 23, 2001
Location
here
TDI
99 beetle and 04 jetta
If I say details it will sound like empty boasting and it always comes across the wrong way, opens me up for personal attacks, and so forth. Especially since it contradicts 100% what the other vendors have been saying to CYA so far.

So let's just leave it at "proof is in the pudding". If someone with this shudder wants to see for themselves, no risk other than your time. Contact by PM or e-mail please.
 
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eddieleephd

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2012
Location
Battle Ground, Wa
TDI
2002 jetta Wagon
If I say details it will sound like empty boasting and it always comes across the wrong way, opens me up for personal attacks, and so forth. Especially since it contradicts 100% what the other vendors have been saying to CYA so far.

So let's just leave it at "proof is in the pudding". If someone with this shudder wants to see for themselves, no risk other than your time. Contact by PM or e-mail please.
I have read plenty of posts where you've been questioned by others and understand the reason for the pm request.
Tuning has more and more to do with the effect of how aftermarket parts affect the operation of the vehicle's performance.

Also, it's just not accepted for vendors to sell their products in the threads and this is your avoiding that.

Hopefully you will get the OP to finish this thread with, "fixed with tune."
 

740GLE

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Location
NH
TDI
2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
I respect your mentality and the work you've done for the platform and def don't want to get in the mud slinging.

It's pretty impressive to have a tune that can hit 300-330 trq from 18-2200 RPM, that low end pull is what everyone is searching for.
 
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