True or False?

Will a well-maintained diesel outlast an equally well-maintained gas engine?

  • Yes, the diesel will last significantly longer.

    Votes: 39 75.0%
  • They should last about the same

    Votes: 13 25.0%
  • No, the gasoline engine will last longer.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    52
  • Poll closed .

McGuillicuddy

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2013
Location
Canada
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon (5MT)
True or False? A well-maintained diesel will outlast a similarly maintained gasser.

Wondering what the consensus is on this. It will obviously be biased, but I'm still curious.

For the sake of this poll, let's limit this discussion to TDI engines rather than big heavy duty diesels.

Edit: I guess it's not true vs. false after all. Oh well :).
 
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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
This is a loaded question. Which diesel? Which gasoline engine? My 1987 Mazda B2000 was still happily motoring along at 404k miles, head had never been off. My 1991 diesel Jetta needed a head gasket and valve job at 246k. Came apart again at 437k, this time had a couple broken rings.
 

McGuillicuddy

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2013
Location
Canada
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon (5MT)
Yes I guess I should have prefaced the question with 'Generally speaking' since obviously there are going to be different experiences on an individual level. What I'm really getting at is whether or not there is something inherent in diesel engines that make them more likely to last longer. Or is it just that people who buy diesel engines tend to drive on more highway trips and thus will ring up the odometer more than the typical gas engine driver, giving the false impression that diesels are actually more robust. Or maybe it's that diesel owners tend to maintain their vehicles better, which would give the same false impression.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I think a lot of people want to compare ALL diesels to some big, OTR trucks. If we were to just stick with Volkswagen or similar light duty automotive applications, for the most part the diesel has no real longevity advantage. Because the engine family (in the VAG world, anyways) on which diesels are based, are also found in gasoline trim.

If you stripped them down to the bare block, you'd be hard pressed to tell any difference. The diesel will have chunkier rods... they have to, they have ~ twice the compression ratio. The older (pre-TDI) VAG diesels were not very powerful, so they had to be geared lower, which meant they had to reciprocating friction advantage. The TDIs, however, make a significant amount more torque than most comparable gasoline engines, so they are geared higher. Which means they DO have a slight advantage. Over time, an engine that needs 2500 RPM to hold 80 MPH will have less wear than an engine that needs 3000 RPM to do the same. But how much does that difference really make? Chances are, no normal humans will dare keep a car long enough to truly find out. In a case like that, the diesel may go to 1,000,000 miles to show the same wear that the gasser would show at 800,000 miles. But who drives ANY car that much anyways?

Generally speaking, Volkswagen's gasoline engines are very good regarding wear. There are some that have some piston ring issues, and others that have some chain issues. But in general, with good care, they'll easily last as long as the car they are bolted into.

I just bought a 2004 Passat, AWM engine (1.8t), that is nearing 200k miles. I've cared for it since it was new. I've done every single service to it, with the correct 502.00 spec 5w40 oil, and the big Mann oil filters. Its engine uses very little oil, leaks no oil, and sounds and runs as good as new. This is an engine that is very often cited for being problematic, too. Just goes to show that if cared for properly, even an engine that has a troublesome track record can still buck the trend.
 
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RT1

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2006
Location
Central New Jersey
TDI
2005 Golf 1.9 TDI w/tiptronic 09A
Apples and oranges. There are too many components with the potential for failure to judge one vs. the other. I think a diesel has the potential to have the drive portion of the engine (crank, cylinders, pistons) last a very long time if everything that drives the combustion cycle works as it should and its maintained with the proper fluids. It would be a better question if you asked if a 4 cylinder diesel engine at "x" horse power would outlast a 4 cylinder gasser of the same horse power. I would say "yes" from the standpoint that the gasser would have to run at higher RPM to achieve the same torque. If RPM equals wear cycles then the gasser is going to wear out sooner.
 

Slurry Pumper

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Location
Allentown PA
TDI
2010 Jetta Sedan
In my Opinion, it is the body of the vehicle that will determine how long the car will last, generally speaking. All of the cars that I have owned and have since passed away have always gone to the dirt nap because the body was too rusted to justify the repair cost over replacement.
 

MichaelB

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Location
SE Wisconsin
TDI
2014 Passat SE DSG
I think a lot of people want to compare ALL diesels to some big, OTR trucks. If we were to just stick with Volkswagen or similar light duty automotive applications, for the most part the diesel has no real longevity advantage. Because the engine family (in the VAG world, anyways) on which diesels are based, are also found in gasoline trim.

If you stripped them down to the bare block, you'd be hard pressed to tell any difference. The diesel will have chunkier rods... they have to, they have ~ twice the compression ratio. The older (pre-TDI) VAG diesels were not very powerful, so they had to be geared lower, which meant they had to reciprocating friction advantage. The TDIs, however, make a significant amount more torque than most comparable gasoline engines, so they are geared higher. Which means they DO have a slight advantage. Over time, an engine that needs 2500 RPM to hold 80 MPH will have less wear than an engine that needs 3000 RPM to do the same. But how much does that difference really make? Chances are, no normal humans will dare keep a car long enough to truly find out. In a case like that, the diesel may go to 1,000,000 miles to show the same wear that the gasser would show at 800,000 miles. But who drives ANY car that much anyways?

Generally speaking, Volkswagen's gasoline engines are very good regarding wear. There are some that have some piston ring issues, and others that have some chain issues. But in general, with good care, they'll easily last as long as the car they are bolted into.

I just bought a 2004 Passat, AWM engine (1.8t), that is nearing 200k miles. I've cared for it since it was new. I've done every single service to it, with the correct 502.00 spec 5w40 oil, and the big Mann oil filters. Its engine uses very little oil, leaks no oil, and sounds and runs as good as new. This is an engine that is very often cited for being problematic, too. Just goes to show that if cared for properly, even an engine that has a troublesome track record can still buck the trend.
Back in the day (early 1970's) I owned a 67 MB 200D and a 69 MB 250S both the cars engines were in need of major engine repairs at comparable mileage.
 
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whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
In our stable we have one each 2002 and 2005 Caravan and one each 2004 and 2006 Ford Freestar and they all have over 300,000 miles and the 05 DGC should hit 425,000 today.

The 2002 engine has two holes that are quite low and the 04 has two holes that keep fouling plugs. So with close to 1.4 million miles between these four engines have kept running and running and running. They use some oil and on the 04 I pull two plugs and clean them at every oil change, but we will keep running them. I will probably do something about the one fouling plugs sometime soon, but at the moment, there are higher priority tasks.

Then there are the twin 2007 Duramax engines. 640,000 miles on each of them and they start and run better than the 420,000 mile 2005 Powerstroke.

I can see lots of engine swapping in the next year or two.
 

Dragracerzzz

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 25, 2014
Location
Northcentral WISCONSIN
TDI
2006 Jetta 1.9L BRM 300K Mi. Malone Stage 1.5 tune and haulin the mail! (Courtesy of WIDiesel Service) Thanks Kevin
How long a car lasts is usually dictated by the nut that holds the steering wheel. In my opinion. :)
DRZ
 

TDI smile

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Location
Edmonton, Alberta (b4 BC - LOWER MAINLAND = Chilli
TDI
2002 TDI (ALH) with 513,000 km. First Owner and very happy... No Problems, never left us stranded on the Highway. Average useage is about between under 4 ltr. and 5 ltr. Normal longdistance travel: 4.1/100
If I would go with Irv Gordon, it would be the GAS engine (VOLVO P1800). But...!?
 

ChiTownPilot

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2013
Location
Valparaiso, IN
TDI
2013 Jetta TDI + Premium
I think it's safe to say that if you are a regular on this site you probably care more about your car than the average Joe. Because of this I'd be willing to bet that a TDI Club member's diesel will last longer than the average car.
 

keaton85

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2011
Location
Camden, ME
TDI
Golf MK4
If I had to pick based on the mechanical aspect instead of the fuel economy, it would be gas. I've been a Volvo tech for years and seeing 300k-400k miles on the good models (just like TDIs) is not hard. No VNT, clogged intake, IP issues, cam wear and so forth. Same goes for many other basic gas models.

But I like diesel in many aspects that keeps me interested.

Anyway: simple gas vs diesel at the engine block/head level, I would pick diesel but only by a little which is not worth it in the long run in my opinion. Pros and cons to everything, different shades a gray...
 

MichaelB

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Location
SE Wisconsin
TDI
2014 Passat SE DSG
If I had to pick based on the mechanical aspect instead of the fuel economy, it would be gas. I've been a Volvo tech for years and seeing 300k-400k miles on the good models (just like TDIs) is not hard. No VNT, clogged intake, IP issues, cam wear and so forth. Same goes for many other basic gas models.

But I like diesel in many aspects that keeps me interested.

Anyway: simple gas vs diesel at the engine block/head level, I would pick diesel but only by a little which is not worth it in the long run in my opinion. Pros and cons to everything, different shades a gray...
Well said..........I drive a TDI because it is something a bit different. Same reason I bought a MB 200D many years ago. I don't think the modern diesel passenger car engine out surpasses a gasser in longevity, too many other issues.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Local guy had an '87 Jetta 1.8L gas engine (GX engine code), CIS injection, 5-speed, that had 569k miles on it when the odometer finally broke. The car burned oil, enough to have some minor visible smoke in the exhaust (like a Saturn S-car at 80k miles) but other than that ran fine.

That is one of the higher mileage non-fleet non-commercial use vehicles I can ever recall being around. If you add all the fleet stuff into the mix, sheesh, there are loads of 300+k mile gassers I've seen.
 

curtludwig

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Location
Winchendon, MA
TDI
1998 Jetta, 2005 Golf
Oh geez, throw taxis into the mix if you really want to see high miles. A really high mile engine is one that gets started, driven all over and only shut off for fuel and maintenance. Police cars are a good example. They get thrashed but its the suspensions that give up before the engines.

That said I'd stack a Mercedes 240D up against just about anything, a stupid simple engine built out of real iron. Not terrific fuel economy (my two both averaged 28mpg) and definitely not fast but a stout go forever car. If I ever have a short commute again I'd probably go back to one, for 56 miles each way I'll stick with my A3.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Police cars get sold off before much of anything "wears out". They spend much of their time in the body shop, anyways. We used to service quite a few of them. Ever seen an "old" police car in use? Yeah, me neither.
 

curtludwig

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Location
Winchendon, MA
TDI
1998 Jetta, 2005 Golf
When I was a youth there was an "old" police car in service in our town, it might have been 5 years old. Had a bad wheel bearing that they apparently ignored until somebody took a corner at speed and the wheel came off. Car bounced around the corner into a house. That police department doesn't keep "old" cars any more.

A friend's son buys police cars exclusively for his daily driver. Usually they come with around 100,000 miles. He says they're barely broken in. Puts another 150 - 200,000 on them before the tinworm takes the rest.
 
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