.205 Nozzle ECU Problems - ECU won't save changes

jheen

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I just swapped nozzles on my 1999.5 TDI. This is the first performance mod I have done on the car in the 6 years I have owned it - bone stock. Just went with the small increase to the .205 Bosch nozzles. Got everything in and fired the car up. Idled really bad, so I logged into my vag-com 303.1 using the 12233 code. I then went to adaption like the how to says to do, and dropped the value and the car started idling perfect with the injection qty at 2.2 mg/R. I then saved the value, exited out and took the car for a spin. Everything was great. Later I started the car back up and it was idling like crap again. Logged back in and checked the idle injection quantity and it was back to the factory amount... For some reason, when I shut the car off and start it back up, the value keeps going back to the factory setting. Anyone have any ideas on how to fix this?
 
Last edited:

RomSL

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There're 2 options in vag-com when you put a new value: test and save. You chose "Test" I guess.
 

jheen

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Harness was plugged back in.

I chose test, when I wanted to test the value. Once I saw it would work, I chose save. It changes the stored value that is shown in vag-com, but as mentioned, once the vehicle is turned off and started back up the settings have reset.

Does anyone have actual experience with this issue?

Thanks in advance.
 

Drivbiwire

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Yeah, the injectors are out of balance and you have 8 injections occuring at random. Picture a V8 with all 8 cylinder firing at different times.

To make things worse you have injection set pressure far below the required pressure thus opening up the risk to injector/nozzle damage.
 

jheen

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Yeah, the injectors are out of balance and you have 8 injections occuring at random. Picture a V8 with all 8 cylinder firing at different times.

To make things worse you have injection set pressure far below the required pressure thus opening up the risk to injector/nozzle damage.

So how do i get vag-com to save the settings?

The 2.2 mg/R is as high as I could get it to go. What does that directly correlate to in terms of the reason it will only go that high? The target range is shown to be 3.0-5.0

Who in the NW is reputable at balancing injectors (preferably greater PDX area)?

I don't think the injections are completely random because it is a very smooth idle and very smooth accelleration when driving around.
 
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jheen

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I am sending the injectors in to DBW, but does anyone have any ideas on my issue with the vagcom?
 

dogdots

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2.2 is a lot of fueling. Search for hammer mod to get the IQ up above 3 target 3.5 with those nozzles after DBW balances them.
 

jheen

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dogdots - exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for the help. Once I get the injectors back and in, I will do this. Turns out it helps the small slow down shudder issue I have too.
 

Windex

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It would be interesting to see a before and after report of the breaking pressures for your injector nozzles to see how far out they actually were, relative to each other or relative to the 220 bar primary break pressure (primary), or if they only "really" only required an IQ adjustment ie Hammer Mod.
 

jheen

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I would like to see that too. I did notice when driving it around briefly Monday morning that it was smoking pretty good under moderate accelleration. That is what made me break down and send them in.

I'm not sure if DBW ever checks them before, or just issues the after report?
 

Drivbiwire

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I will check them and report back the starting and final set pressures.
 

Drivbiwire

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Calibration Fluid Data: ISO 4113, +20C, 2.48 cSt (ASTM D-445)

Before Adjustments:

Pressure Data:
Start Reading/Tare Value= 0.0 Bar
End Reading= +.3 Bar (Total error)

Pilot Injection Pressures
(Specification: 220-320 (+/-3))
#1: 218.6
#2: 229.3
#3: 217.1
#4: 226.9
Total Flow Deviation: 6%

Primary Pressures
Specification Standard pressure 330-335 bar (+/- 3 allowed for trim)
#1: 342.4
#2: 338.6
#3: 309.1
#4: 351.9
Total Flow Deviation= 13%
-END-

-------------------

After adjustment:

Pressure Data:
Start Reading/Tare Value= 0.0 Bar
End Reading= +.2 Bar (Total error)

Pilot Injection
#1: 231.1
#2: 231.4
#3: 231.1
#4: 232.4
Total Flow Deviation= .5%

Primary Injection:
Specification= Target Range 315-320
#1: 317.4
#2: 317.8
#3: 318.9
#4: 317.4
Total Flow Deviation .5%
-END-

All Nozzles were ultrasonic cleaned and you can see the effects of some of the heat on the tips, some mild blueing is evident.

Otherwise very crisp on injection and very good on dispersion.

Before it was obvious that #3 and #4 were fighting each other. #3 was under performing and #4 was overfueling. The ECU was probably having a hard time hitting an average flow with the quantity adjuster.

No doubt there will be significantly lower smoke, and at least 3-4 mpg better in the economy department.

When you get these back Hammer mod to 6.0 and set your timing to the top of the graph. This will give you a very good starting point for later adjustments.
 
Last edited:

oldpoopie

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Calibration Fluid Data: ISO 4113, +20C, 2.48 cSt (ASTM D-445)

Before Adjustments:

Pressure Data:
Start Reading/Tare Value= 0.0 Bar
End Reading= +.3 Bar (Total error)

Pilot Injection Pressures
(Specification: 220-320 (+/-3))
#1: 218.6
#2: 229.3
#3: 217.1
#4: 226.9
Total Flow Deviation: 6%

Primary Pressures
Specification Standard pressure 330-335 bar (+/- 3 allowed for trim)
#1: 342.4
#2: 338.6
#3: 309.1
#4: 351.9
Total Flow Deviation= 13%
-END-

-------------------

After adjustment:

Pressure Data:
Start Reading/Tare Value= 0.0 Bar
End Reading= +.2 Bar (Total error)

Pilot Injection
#1: 231.1
#2: 231.4
#3: 231.1.
#4: 232.4
Total Flow Deviation= .5%

Primary Injection:
Specification= Target Range 315-320
#1: 317.4
#2: 317.8
#3: 318.9
#4: 317.4
Total Flow Deviation .5%
-END-

All Nozzles were ultrasonic cleaned and you can see the effects of some of the heat on the tips, some mild blueing is evident.

Otherwise very crisp on injection and very good on dispersion.

Before it was obvious that #3 and #4 were fighting each other. #3 was under performing and #4 was overfueling. The ECU was probably having a hard time hitting an average flow with the quantity adjuster.

No doubt there will be significantly lower smoke, and at least 3-4 mpg better in the economy department.

When you get these back Hammer mod to 6.0 and set your timing to the top of the graph. This will give you a very good starting point for later adjustments.
Nicely set up nozzles will definately make the car run better, but does not explain his original issue. Vag-Com will not accept saving of adaptation values for IQ...
 

dogdots

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Nicely set up nozzles will definately make the car run better, but does not explain his original issue. Vag-Com will not accept saving of adaptation values for IQ...
Justin - he will have to hammer mod the IP since VCDS will only allow a small window of adjustment, IIRC it maxes out at value 32785 (most fueling) and minimum value is like 32755 (least fueling). The OP needs less fuel, thus a higher IQ number and his QA is out of the range of adjustability in VCDS without the hammer mod.

Quote from myturbodiesel.com : "Click up or down to change the adaptation number until you see where the limit is. If you can't get to the desired IQ then you need to do the hammer mod to mechanically change the QA's range of movement"
 

jheen

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Jetta 2012 TDI Sedan
Someone needs to update the how-to for nozzle swap to include the hammer mod and stress the importance of calibration/flow matching of injectors.

DBW - glad you responded to my post so I could send them to you. Thanks for the help and I will report back how the car runs/smoke/mpg changes.
 

oldpoopie

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2001 golf gl, 2006 jetta, 1981 ALH swapped rabbit pickup, 1998 beetle
Justin - he will have to hammer mod the IP since VCDS will only allow a small window of adjustment, IIRC it maxes out at value 32785 (most fueling) and minimum value is like 32755 (least fueling). The OP needs less fuel, thus a higher IQ number and his QA is out of the range of adjustability in VCDS without the hammer mod.

Quote from myturbodiesel.com : "Click up or down to change the adaptation number until you see where the limit is. If you can't get to the desired IQ then you need to do the hammer mod to mechanically change the QA's range of movement"

Yes I understand that he will have to hammer the pump. When in adaptations, you could type in 32222 as a test value and it will not allow you to click save, but will temporarily adapt to the lowest value. Because the IQ will drop to the minimum value when you do so, but it will not save. The "NEW VALUE" and TEST VALUE" must be the same in order to save, correct?
The OP said he was able to save the value.

@Jheen, what value were you typing in? Was the "save" button greyed out or were you able to actually click it?
 

jheen

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Jetta 2012 TDI Sedan
I'll have to check my notes at the house for the value, but it was about 200 below the factory setting. The only time the button greyed out was when I went about 1500 below the factory setting, which did nothing to change the IQ. I was able to save it at the 200 less than factory setting, then exit out of VagCom and login back in and the value was still saved. But once the car was shut off, the value always went back to the factory value. Kind of wierd.
 

Drivbiwire

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2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
Just a heads up, when you do the hammer mod, reset the default value for the IQ (32768) and use the HM to set the actual value. This will prevent you from running out of adjustment up or down this time.

6.0 with the hammer mod and having 32768 will allow you to decrease to the lowest setting of 2.8 or increase as high as around 9.0.

And also make sure you adjust the timing, the #3 injector had quite a change on trigger pressure so the static timing of the pump will cause a change since its mechanical adjustment was predicated on the older pressure settings. When you adjust it, reset it to the top of the range (increases hp by about 5 vs middle of the range). Also this will put your power band at a nice range for low smoke and efficiency and give you much better fuel pressures at high flow/power.
 

dogdots

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Location
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Yes I understand that he will have to hammer the pump. When in adaptations, you could type in 32222 as a test value and it will not allow you to click save, but will temporarily adapt to the lowest value. Because the IQ will drop to the minimum value when you do so, but it will not save. The "NEW VALUE" and TEST VALUE" must be the same in order to save, correct?
The OP said he was able to save the value.

@Jheen, what value were you typing in? Was the "save" button greyed out or were you able to actually click it?
My bad. I reread the original post, somehow the first time I missed the fact that the save button was not grayed out. I was posting while still sleepy :p. It looks like the best bet is to just use the hammer mod to fine tune the IQ settings since either his VCDS or his ECU is acting a bit wonky.
 

jheen

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Jetta 2012 TDI Sedan
Got the injectors in and it is a huge difference. Smoke is way down. I can also tell a drop in power (from the one time I drove it before sending injectors to DBW), but the timing has not been adjusted yet. Power is slightly better than before the swap, but I assume it will change with the timing. IQ is set at 5.8-6.0. Too soon to tell anything about fuel economy yet.

Sending injectors to DBW is a must if swapping nozzles.

Oldpoopie - I may need to make the drive to PDX to check/adjust the timing. Whats the going rate for that?
 

Drivbiwire

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We did a slight reduction in flows (due to smoke complaint), If you need more fueling just increase those IQ values. Generally, I like to see just a very faint haze at full throttle, very scientific I know ;)

Get with Oldpoopie and have him adjust the timing to the top of the range and I think you will have a really good runner on your hands.

If you need more fueling from those nozzles that can't be accomplished with the IQ at 2.8 then just let us know and we can bump them up for you.

Thanks!
 
Last edited:

jheen

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Jetta 2012 TDI Sedan
The power is fine - I do mainly highway driving, so I'd prefer better mpg's over the quick get up and go power. I do have the scientific faint haze at full throttle, so it sounds like it is tuned in pretty good. Even before the swap it was belching smoke pretty good - nice to have that gone.
 

jheen

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Jetta 2012 TDI Sedan
OK - First issue. The slight hard hot start problem is now a major problem. Won't start at all when hot. Push start worked... gotta do some searching now. Battery is 6 months old.
 

Drivbiwire

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2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
Get that timing checked, if its at the top of the range...

Weak starter....Low rpms (typical on a hot engine when resistance is highest).
 

jheen

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VCDS says 231 rpm when starting. I think I remember seeing somewhere it needs 250? Sounds the same as it has been, but I definately need to adjust the timing.
 

jheen

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cool. Replied.

Also, finally actually pulled the plug on the temp sensor (1st time) to try to start and it fired right up. Revved a little high it seemed, but wasn't watching the tach to see.
 

oldpoopie

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Timing now set to top of graph, IQ bumped down from over 6 to just below 4. Starting is still very poor. Only starts if coolant temp sensor unpluged. Didnt have time to poke around any more since I was already doing a belt on another car, so couldnt really do much troubleshooting.
 
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