Blown turbo and maybe blown engine on my ALH wagon?

mrfiat

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Location
Los Ranchos, NM
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (Reflex Silver) , 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon (Black)
I recently installed a new turbo actuator trying to get the requested boost to match the actual, so I was out doing runs from 1800 rpm to close to redline in 3rd gear today. Right after I finished my last run and shifted to 4th, I heard a noise that sounded like something falling off the engine and a big cloud of white smoke came out the back. Not good!
(The engine was at operating temperature before I did my test)

The car didn't have any power but was still running. I pulled over right away and the engine died as I coasted to a stop. I should have killed the engine right away when it happened. I did try restarted it when I was stopped (I shouldn't have) and it started after a cranking for a few seconds. (Usually starts right away)

There was oil all around the turbo area and for some reason the inlet hose to the turbo was disconnected. (The spring clamp was still on it) I did also notice that the brace that holds the inlet hose to the PS of the engine was broken off. There was a big puddle of oil under the car when I came back to tow it home. Also not sure if this matters, but there was power steering fluid that leaked out of the reservoir for some reason. (It hadn't done that before and it wasn't overfilled)

I checked the oil when I got home and the dipstick came up dry. :-(

Here is what I think that I should do tomorrow:

1. Use a vacuum pump to try to get oil out of the cylinders. (I read that the turbo most likely put oil in the cylinders)
2. Try to turn the engine by hand from the crank nut.
3. Buy a compression tester and check for equal compression in all 4 cylinders.
4. If the compression is good, then replace the turbo, clean out the turbo air hoses and intercooler, and then I am back in business?

What are the chances that the engine is blown? And why did the turbo inlet hose come off?

BTW here is the turbo boost log from when this happened tonight:
http://log.malonetuning.com/chart/239580#H8KLCADCtzjCtFsCA03Ci8ORCsKDMAwAw78lw48Nw6jDsG9KH8OqDDXDkDXCksOGw6HDtsO1w5oKY8KPd8OHeQ9PecONXAjCk8OKwr5VcENwTWZRw77DksKFDhIVw5JoBHcpb1JDEzwwHsOcwo7Du8KJw4vCgsKfwp8Cw6XCtFpfKsOZX8Owwo%2FDoGDDrCHDriZ1w4tsw43Cj1MIJ8K3PMOmJ8KPAAAA


Thanks!
 
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mrfiat

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Location
Los Ranchos, NM
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (Reflex Silver) , 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon (Black)
I just pulled the inlet hose to the intake manifold and everything looked fairly normal. No sign of any metal and about the usual amount of oil.

I tried to feel the turbo shaft inside the inlet and the turbo is actually split in two! :-(

I checked the tailpipe and no oil there.

It doesn't appear from my boost graph that it overboosted. It was at 18 PSI when it blew.

I do have new 1019 nozzles that I installed two weeks ago on the car and I do not have a tune yet. The car has been running fine though, just some extra smoke if you floor it.
 
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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Well now you need a new turbocharger.

Did it have a boost fault before, or were you trying to fix a problem that didn't exist?
 

eddieleephd

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2012
Location
Battle Ground, Wa
TDI
2002 jetta Wagon
Well, you may have gotten lucky.
Definitely a new turbo and I am curious how far out the actual versus requested difference was.
By inlet do you mean air, or oil? Air probably was knocked loose when working on the actuator and oil was loose already if it came apart.

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mrfiat

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Location
Los Ranchos, NM
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (Reflex Silver) , 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon (Black)
No boost faults, but it was overboosting a little and then dropping way down below requested. The ironic thing was that during final test run the actual met the requested. (so it was fixed, oh well)


This thread has my older boost logs from this car:


http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=492328


So you can see the actual vs. requested there. I think it was initially spiking to like 22 psi at 2200 rpm and then dropping to 12 psi until it
finally caught up at 4000 rpm or so. (Requested was 18 psi under full throttle)



The oil lines look to be fine. The air inlet came loose when the turbo exploded in half. I did not knock it loose when I was installing the actuator. I removed the air inlet hose/pipe when I installed the new actuator. (I replaced the intake manifold at the same time)
 

mrfiat

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Location
Los Ranchos, NM
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (Reflex Silver) , 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon (Black)
Update: Oil in intercooler which I drained out. Glow plugs are dry. I was able to turn the engine by hand and it felt normal. Compression check next. Also I am going to stick a hose down the glow plug holes and try to suck out any oil.

I just did that and no oil in the cylinders. :)

After going through five Harbor Freight compression testers, I came up with 280,280,300,300 psi for the compression. My research indicates that the minimum psi at 5000 feet is 234 psi with a maximum of 73 psi difference between cylinders, so I think that I am ok. :)
 
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mrfiat

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Location
Los Ranchos, NM
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (Reflex Silver) , 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon (Black)
I got lucky. I installed a new VNT17 turbo into my wagon today. The car runs great now. :)



I'm wondering if we should replace the turbos on our ALHs when they get to a certain age so we don't take the risk of blowing the engine?
 

eddieleephd

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2012
Location
Battle Ground, Wa
TDI
2002 jetta Wagon
I got lucky. I installed a new VNT17 turbo into my wagon today. The car runs great now. :)



I'm wondering if we should replace the turbos on our ALHs when they get to a certain age so we don't take the risk of blowing the engine?
We should keep an eye on the so we know what shape they're in and aren't worried about it.

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mrfiat

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Location
Los Ranchos, NM
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (Reflex Silver) , 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon (Black)
Well, how can you tell if the turbo is about to fly apart? I had no warning that mine was about to go. I'm very lucky that I didn't have a runaway, bent rods, and/or metal fragments in the engine. My VNT15 exploded at 210,000 miles.
 

eddieleephd

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2012
Location
Battle Ground, Wa
TDI
2002 jetta Wagon
Well, how can you tell if the turbo is about to fly apart? I had no warning that mine was about to go. I'm very lucky that I didn't have a runaway, bent rods, and/or metal fragments in the engine. My VNT15 exploded at 210,000 miles.
There's a few things to be aware of.
How many miles are on the turbo, occasionally feel the turbine shaft itself for play (the bearings and seals), check the actuator for movement and if it is getting wore out, peek inside of the boost lines for excessive oil.

The turbo isn't a mystical machine, the bearings should be tight(shaft play) and the actuator should move easily and smoothly(no sticking, no force needed). The seals shouldn't allow oil to enter the intake, or exhaust.

I have seen on the forums that the vnt15 is known to last 285,000 - 300,000 miles. I am not positive about the age of the one I replaced on my car @ 290,000ish miles.

The life of the turbo is also dependent on the care people put into it over the years. This includes ensuring oil supply and return lines are good, especially the supply line. Oil changes at regular intervals and driving it like you stole it occasionally to burn out the soot.

Generally you know it's about to grenade when the shaft shows too much play and oil is excessive in the boost system. Often this follows limp mode due to overboost, however, mine didn't ever throw a code. My local guru did my timing belt and informed me that he noticed some play in the shaft and when he logged it to set the timing that it was overboosting, so he felt the actuator and it was sticking open. Shaft play was acceptable for my turbo, however, the actuator would open the veins and not close them causing the overboost.

So the final answer is being aware of the condition of the turbo and occasionally check for rising issues. Run boost logs and compare them to what you experienced previously, looking for small over/underboost situations that to tell you that you need to check things out.

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IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I suspect your turbo failed because if overboosted when you were running tests, causing it to fail. If the actuator was not working properly for a while then soot may have accumulated on the vanes causing them not to move smoothly, making it overboost under the conditions you ran.

As posted above, turbo longevity depends on proper operation throughout its life and proper maintenance. Off the top of my head I can think of four TDIs around IDParts with original turbos and over 200K miles, and two with over 250K and original turbos. My son's '02 Golf has 370K miles, original turbo. I considered replacing it at the car's last timing belt change, but it works properly, the car has been well maintained throughout its life, the actuator is fairly new, and my son drives the car hard so it doesn't get carboned up. He also knows what to do if it fails. We'll see how long it lasts.
 

mrfiat

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Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Location
Los Ranchos, NM
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (Reflex Silver) , 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon (Black)
I don't think my turbo overboosted. We have the boost logs above. The highest it hits right before it blows is 18 psi. I have done these same tests on my sedan many, many times and no problems with the turbo. My sedan's turbo was overboosting though.

Do you check for excessive play in the shaft on the inlet side of the turbo?

The turbo that blew did not have excessive oil going into the intercooler. The actuator moved smoothly. It had a new actuator on it as well. It may have had shaft play since I never checked that.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Maybe not during that test, it may have other times and been ready to blow, and full (but not over) boost was the last straw. Hard to tell.
 

Genesis

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
One of the most-reliable ways to blow up a turbo over time is to get off the highway (where it's nice and hot) and shut it down immediately. Even worse if you were just pulling a grade or similar.

The oil in the center housing cokes and that starts the cycle of destruction. In short never, ever do that -- if you get off the highway come into the rest area throttle closed (so it gets a nice dose of cool air and no fuel on the ramp) and then let it idle for a minute or two so it can cool off. Remember that exhaust section has quite a bit of thermal mass -- and it's connected to the center housing where the oil is. As soon as the engine stops so does the oil flow and if the center section heat-soaks beyond what the oil can withstand.....

The one in my '03 is original and still working well.....
 

AndyBees

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Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
In my opinion, if you do mods to the engine to increase HP, etc., you should invest in a Turbo Boost Gauge. VCDS is great but to be safe requires someone to observe other than the driver.

I think you'll find that somewhere around 3200 to 3400 RPMs is where maximum boost takes place, give or take a few hundred RPMs depending on load (going up hill, flat or down hill). I've observed this on the ALH in my Vanagon. RPMs required to obtain maximum boost never changed from stock to a Stage 1 Tune. Also, a faulty MAP sensor can cause spikes in boost, but generally there will be a DTC indicating something going on with the MAP sensor. My engine was spiking up to 25 PSI occasionally and quite often to 20 PSI. With a new MAP, 18 PSI is now the max.

I generally agree with what Genesis is saying about heat, however, I've disassembled a lot of VNT15s and never found any evidence of coking. Proper oil will protect from coking. The 1.8T engine in the Passat's around 2000 were notorious to coke oil... long story short, VW/Audi lost a class-action lawsuit over it. I've been in a few of those engines and the coking was extremely obvious....... so bad that the flaking off plugged the screen on the oil pump tube.

My former 2000 Jetta still has the original Turbo at 371k miles, works fine.

The Turbo on the ALH in my Vanagon is at 208k miles of which 83k of those miles were in the Vanagon with a 4th gear (top gear) roughly the same as 4th gear in an 02J tranny. It works fine.

Lastly, this may raise eyebrows, but, I'd never take the RPMs beyond 4000k on any of my TDI engines. What does such high RPMs accomplish?
 

Genesis

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Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
Audis have had issues with this sort of thing too (coking and plugged intake screens); the problem is that you never know when you run across one whether the owner(s) are lying about always running synthetic oil or not.....

My personal view is that it's cheap insurance to let 'em cool down after getting off the highway or any sort of hard driving -- there's really nothing to be gained by not taking the extra minute before shutting it down, and possibly much to be lost.
 

AndyBees

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Location
Southeast Kentucky
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Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Yes, Genesis, I agree about the heat. I have a McNally EGT set-up on the ALH in my Vanagon. I was amazed to see the EGTs when idling down. Generally, at 400f and above, it will take two to three minutes to cool down below 250f... I shut down at about 225-235f... a hot engine idling will keep the idle EGT at that level or higher depending on ambient. I've considered installing a fan with toggle switch to flip-on during the cool down... just never got around doing it.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
If I downshift when getting off the highway and entering a service area, by the time I roll into a parking space the EGTs are at 200 or less. The only time I've had to let the car idle is after track sessions, where the EGTs were at 1500+ on every straight. I remember after one session I got off the track, idled into the paddock, backed into a parking slot, and the EGTs were still over 800. Coolant was at 240. Car was hot.
 

Rob Mayercik

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Joined
Dec 19, 2001
Location
NJ, U.S.A.
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS, Baltic Green/Beige
I got 325K miles out of my original turbo. When it came out it was noticeably not spinning freely when turned by hand, but was not having drivability issues (it came out because of pulling the head for a snapped/stripped glow plug).

As to cooldown, I usually idle until I can cut the engine and not hear the radiator fans going (sometimes if they are running, I'll restart for another 15-20 seconds and that does the trick). That was my best guess since these cars don't have an EGT readout stock...
 

mrfiat

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Mar 24, 2008
Location
Los Ranchos, NM
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2003 Jetta TDI (Reflex Silver) , 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon (Black)
I have a possible reason that caused my turbo to blow. I found that a bolt had come loose on the EGR block-off plate on the ASV. A boost leak. :-( Fixed now.



Could my turbo have blown because the MAP sensor was reporting below actual boost due to the boost leak? The boost leak was further up the intake track from the ASV, so not sure that would make it under-report?


I just read that the EGR valve is closed under high engine loads, so maybe this wasn't the issue.

(i.e. no boost leak under high loads like when I did the boost logs at WOT)
 
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PakProtector

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Mk.4's and the Cummins
The turbo shaft is subject to stress exposure( it is transmitting turbine torque), and enough exposures over the threshold allows the accumulated damage to weaken the shaft. It will eventually break if its bearings don't wear out first.
cheers,
Douglas
 
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