fuel lubricity data- with and without additives.

interesting document someone shared on bimmerfest:
http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/aq/Final%20WWFC%204%20Sep%202006.pdf

(my comments are in [])

page 49 said:

LUBRICITY​

The lubricating components of the diesel fuel are believed to be the heavier hydrocarbons and polar fuel
compounds. Diesel fuel pumps, without an external lubrication system, rely on the lubricating properties
of diesel fuel to ensure proper operation.
Refining processes to remove sulphur tend to simultaneously reduce diesel fuel components that provide
natural lubricity. As diesel fuel sulphur levels decrease, the risk of inadequate lubricity also increases;
however, poor lubricity has been observed even in diesel fuels with very high sulphur levels. Inexpensive
additives can be used instead of changing the refining process to achieve the desired lubricity level.
​

Influence of Lubricity on Pump Wear​

Inadequate lubricity can result in increased tailpipe emissions, excessive pump wear and, in some cases,
catastrophic failure. Concerns over problems experienced with fuels with poor lubricity led to a significant
international collaboration between oil companies, OEMs, additive companies and pump manufacturers to
develop a test method and performance limit for fuel lubricity. The resultant method, the High Frequency
Reciprocating Rig (HFRR) procedure, is a bench test that provides good correlation to measured pump effects.
Figure 16 shows the correlation between actual pump wear (measured by Bosch) and HFRR measured
wear scar diameter. Bosch's rating scale describes ‘normal wear‘ as less than 3.5 (which corresponds to a
nominal HFRR Wear Scar Diameter of 400 micron[corrected]). With a Bosch wear rating of 4 [425 micron?], the pump will have
decreased endurance, and ratings above 7 [540 micron?] indicate potential fatal breakdown.
​

Click to expand...

take a gander at Figure 16 on the bottom of page 49.

US fuel is not required to protect your pump
use an additive of your choice for lubricity

Here is what VWofA has to say on the subject.............good enough for me. Their response applies to the 2009/10 TDI engine. Have no clue as to what their position might be on the older engines.

[FONT='Arial', 'sans-serif']Reference # 090352270 [/font][FONT='Arial', 'sans-serif'][/font]


Dear Mr. XXXXx

Thank you for taking the time to contact us regarding fuel additives for your Jetta’s diesel engine. Congratulations on your recent purchase! As our cars are designed to deliver years of satisfaction in ownership, your wish to take the best possible care of it is understandable. I understand you are seeking to know our position on the use of fuel additives in our cars, and I appreciate the chance to get back to you.

Your diesel engine has been specifically designed to operate only on Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) fuel. We do not recommend the use of additives in your fuel, as doing so changes the properties of the fuel and can affect your engine’s operation. This can cause serious damage to the fuel system and subsequently to the engine. The use of additives can then lead to expensive repairs and will adversely affect your car’s warranty. Should you have any further questions, you are encouraged to contact us back at your earliest convenience.

As a member of the Volkswagen family, your questions are important to us. Again, thank you for your e-mail. If we may be of assistance in the future, please don’t hesitate to contact our Customer CARE Center again at (800) 822-8987 or by e-mail at www.vw.com.
[FONT='Arial', 'sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Arial', 'sans-serif']Sincerely,[/font]



Gabrielle De Land
Ext. 43544
Customer CARE Advocate

Come on Dan...you smokin' some of that "special" tobacco out there in Southern Cal

What did you think VW was going to tell you It your car...not theirs!

We do not recommend the use of additives in your fuel, as doing so changes the properties of the fuel and can affect your engine’s operation.

Click to expand...

They are correct on one thing though...it does affect your engines operation by saving your fuel pumps from eating themselves alive!

After reading all of the stuff on this forum about the need for lubricity, I am going to laugh my @$$ off if you ever post a problem with your fuel system or HPFP

Oh...by the way...I just spoke may dairy farmer and he told me that eggs have zero cholesterol and Philip Morris said that smoking isn't bad for you.........

GTIDan said:

Here is what VWofA has to say on the subject.............good enough for me. Their response applies to the 2009/10 TDI engine. Have no clue as to what their position might be on the older engines.

[FONT='Arial', 'sans-serif']Reference # 090352270 [/font][FONT='Arial', 'sans-serif'][/font]


Dear Mr. XXXXx

Thank you for taking the time to contact us regarding fuel additives for your Jetta’s diesel engine. Congratulations on your recent purchase! As our cars are designed to deliver years of satisfaction in ownership, your wish to take the best possible care of it is understandable. I understand you are seeking to know our position on the use of fuel additives in our cars, and I appreciate the chance to get back to you.

Your diesel engine has been specifically designed to operate only on Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) fuel. We do not recommend the use of additives in your fuel, as doing so changes the properties of the fuel and can affect your engine’s operation. This can cause serious damage to the fuel system and subsequently to the engine. The use of additives can then lead to expensive repairs and will adversely affect your car’s warranty. Should you have any further questions, you are encouraged to contact us back at your earliest convenience.

As a member of the Volkswagen family, your questions are important to us. Again, thank you for your e-mail. If we may be of assistance in the future, please don’t hesitate to contact our Customer CARE Center again at (800) 822-8987 or by e-mail at www.vw.com.
[FONT='Arial', 'sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Arial', 'sans-serif']Sincerely,[/font]



Gabrielle De Land
Ext. 43544
Customer CARE Advocate

Click to expand...

Like I posted in the other thread ... the confusion just doesn't stop.

I'm sure it's been pointed out before ... but if an additive is ULSD approved doesn't that make the resulting brew ULSD? And if that is true then using an additive (properly administered) meets VW's requirement for ULSD fuel only.

Or is "ULSD Approved" just marketing BS with no formal qualification? Also it seems your original question said "fuel additives". That may have not been specific enough and backed the respondent into a corner as how to answer. I wonder if the response would be the same for "ULSD approved diesel lubricity additive".

GtiDan, we're not going to see VW or marketers of ULSD recommending additives to ULSD. To do so would undermine their products: VW selling TDIs that potentially fail on ULSD or marketers selling ULSD that potentially fails TDIs. Like VW, you will find Chevron and the likes not recommending additives: "In General, Chevron does not recommend adding after-market additives to diesel fuel". Their lawyers (VW and marketers) simply aren't going to let them recommend anything without specificity (eg. add this product for this specific condition).

But then the marketers are now beginning to sell their "super" ULSD with additives to boost lubricity and cetane. Is VW going to recommend not to buy the super ULSD because the super ULSD has been enhanced with additional additives? I doubt it. It would not surprise me if VW changes its fuel requirements in latter model years if this super ULSD becomes widely available.

Lastly AFAIK, there is no evidence that using ULSD compliant additives appropriately harms TDIs. But there is data that shows that increasing lubricity below the ASTM spec for ULSD decreases wear of HPFPs.


So, VW's response may be "good enough" for you but not for me.
__________________

securityguy said:

Come on Dan...you smokin' some of that "special" tobacco out there in Southern Cal

What did you think VW was going to tell you It your car...not theirs!



They are correct on one thing though...it does affect your engines operation by saving your fuel pumps from eating themselves alive!

After reading all of the stuff on this forum about the need for lubricity, I am going to laugh my @$$ off if you ever post a problem with your fuel system or HPFP

Oh...by the way...I just spoke may dairy farmer and he told me that eggs have zero cholesterol and Philip Morris said that smoking isn't bad for you.........

Click to expand...

So you've had your 2009 how long now? Is the CBEA engine the same as the previous motors? Could it be that the new HPFP is constructed differently from the older ones? You know, I don't know but I guess I'm more trust full of VW than some of you. In the end you have no more of a clue whether the additive works or is just another 'snake oil' you bought into.

All the people on this forum talking about additives............you mean the same ten or twelve that post here time and again. What about the 50,000 or so of us who own a 2000/10 TDI who don't buy into the game? Have you contacted a number of dealers and asked them about HPFP failures? Nope, didn't think so. You hear the same stuff over and over even if it's from just a few and after a while it becomes fact...............when in fact it's not.

Could not the same statement be made that 'what did you expect the additive makers to tell you, you don't need their product? Same reasoning you used about VW don't you think?

It's your car as you say and if you want add the 'high speed' dip stick, the full race air filter, the super duper fuel additives and oil additives (hey, remember slick 50, STP, Duralube?) Did you add those too and did you see a difference? Somehow I bet you did.......and it's OK. It's all what you believe and if you believe it it's true.

Happy trails to all.

I did print out the email and put it with my VW paperwork..........just in case the matter comes up down the road.


Additives sound the same to me as all those drug companies first telling you about a problem you never heard of and than scaring you into asking your Doctor for their product. It's all a con and I'm not buying.

BnR said:

Like I posted in the other thread ... the confusion just doesn't stop.

I'm sure it's been pointed out before ... but if an additive is ULSD approved doesn't that make the resulting brew ULSD? And if that is true then using an additive (properly administered) meets VW's requirement for ULSD fuel only.

Approved by who? How can it meet VW's requirement when they said 'they do not recommend any additives to their diesel engines'. I think that's pretty clear.

Or is "ULSD Approved" just marketing BS with no formal qualification?

A good question, approved by who under what standard.

Also it seems your original question said "fuel additives". That may have not been specific enough and backed the respondent into a corner as how to answer. I wonder if the response would be the same for "ULSD approved diesel lubricity additive".

Click to expand...

You keep splitting hairs and sooner or later you'll get the answer YOU want.

Reminds me of tire company statements. They all pretty much make up their own standard.

very trusting GTIDAN

GTIDan needs to learn the hard way that VW time and time again has people working for them that are totally incompetent. Most dealers are not even aware of new oil standards. What makes you believe they know the chemistry of a quality diesel fuel additive

Winterizing Your Diesel
Fuel For Optimum Cold
Weather Pe rfo r m a n c e
Printed in U. S . A.
February 2001
W 42 DIE S EL FUEL01 V W E
© 2 0 01 Volkswagen of America, Inc. All Rights Reserve d
C AUTION: All diesel fuel additives are
n ot the same. Some contain alcohol,
which will damage the diesel injection
pump. Please make sure you use only
St a n a d yn eTM One Shot Pe rformance All
Season Diesel Fuel Conditioner.
It is important to winterize your fuel
BEF O RE any problems are noticed. If not,
m o re extensive service pro c e d u res may be
re q u i red to re s o l ve fuel system pro b l e m s
after they have occurre d.
If you experience diesel performance
p roblems in cold weather even after
winterizing your fuel, please see yo u r
authorized Volkswagen Dealer
i m m e d i a t e l y.
Fo l l owing this simple pro c e d u re will help
e n s u re that you get all the performance
that your diesel was designed to delive r.
Please note that this information is not in
your OwnerÕs Litera t u re. If you have any
additional questions, please contact yo u r
authorized Volkswagen Dealer.
The Importance of Wi n t e r i z i n g
Diesel Fu e l
Diesel fuel is chemically very diffe rent fro m
gasoline. Th e re are some obvious
d i f fe rences; one of the most noticeable to
a n yone who has ever fueled a diesel is the
distinct odor. Th e re are also some
d i f fe rences that are subtler.
One of these diffe rences is how some
of the pro p e rties of diesel fuel change
with tempera t u re .
Diesel fuel that has not been pro p e r l y,
s to red ÒwinterizedÓ or ÒconditionedÓ by the
fuel supplier may cloud or cause water
contamination problems in the fuel system
at low tempera t u res (B e l ow 32¼F/0 ¼ C) .
This may in turn cause your vehicle to lose
p ower and performance when driving in
these tempera t u re s.
H ow to Wi n t e r i ze Your Diesel
Fuel Pr o p e r l y
To avoid this situation, it is re c o m m e n d e d
that you add StanadyneTM Pe r f o r m a n c e
Formula All Season Diesel Fuel Conditioner
(Pa rt No: ZVW 340 002, available at
authorized Volkswagen dealerships)
d i rectly into your fuel tank.
Make sure to add the correct amount:
8 ounces (235 ml) of additive per
15 gallons (60 ltr) of diesel fuel. If yo u Õre
going to operate your diesel at even low e r
t e m p e ra t u res (B e l ow -22¼F/ - 3 0 ¼ C) ,
i n c rease the amount of Fuel Conditioner to
12 ounces (355 ml) per 15 gallons (60 ltr) of
diesel fuel.

I am not into blind trust

swb1509 said:

Over the years I have had very good results with a few gasoline additives. Chevron Tecron and Redline gas additive. I will stick with the additives that have been tested. Lets not forget that VW is lying when they say they do not recomend additives. Following is a publication that my vw dealer gave to me.

GTIDan needs to learn the hard way that VW time and time again has people working for them that are totally incompetent. Most dealers are not even aware of new oil standards. What makes you believe they know the chemistry of a quality diesel fuel additive

Winterizing Your Diesel
Fuel For Optimum Cold
Weather Pe rfo r m a n c e
Printed in U. S . A.
--->February 2001<----
W 42 DIE S EL FUEL01 V W E
© 2 0 01 Volkswagen of America, Inc. All Rights Reserve d
C AUTION: All diesel fuel additives are
n ot the same. Some contain alcohol,
which will damage the diesel injection
pump. Please make sure you use only
St a n a d yn eTM One Shot Pe rformance All
Season Diesel Fuel Conditioner.
It is important to winterize your fuel
BEF O RE any problems are noticed. If not,
m o re extensive service pro c e d u res may be
re q u i red to re s o l ve fuel system pro b l e m s
after they have occurre d.
If you experience diesel performance
p roblems in cold weather even after
winterizing your fuel, please see yo u r
authorized Volkswagen Dealer
i m m e d i a t e l y.
Fo l l owing this simple pro c e d u re will help
e n s u re that you get all the performance
that your diesel was designed to delive r.
Please note that this information is not in
your OwnerÕs Litera t u re. If you have any
additional questions, please contact yo u r
authorized Volkswagen Dealer.
The Importance of Wi n t e r i z i n g
Diesel Fu e l
Diesel fuel is chemically very diffe rent fro m
gasoline. Th e re are some obvious
d i f fe rences; one of the most noticeable to
a n yone who has ever fueled a diesel is the
distinct odor. Th e re are also some
d i f fe rences that are subtler.
One of these diffe rences is how some
of the pro p e rties of diesel fuel change
with tempera t u re .
Diesel fuel that has not been pro p e r l y,
s to red ÒwinterizedÓ or ÒconditionedÓ by the
fuel supplier may cloud or cause water
contamination problems in the fuel system
at low tempera t u res (B e l ow 32¼F/0 ¼ C) .
This may in turn cause your vehicle to lose
p ower and performance when driving in
these tempera t u re s.
H ow to Wi n t e r i ze Your Diesel
Fuel Pr o p e r l y
To avoid this situation, it is re c o m m e n d e d
that you add StanadyneTM Pe r f o r m a n c e
Formula All Season Diesel Fuel Conditioner
(Pa rt No: ZVW 340 002, available at
authorized Volkswagen dealerships)
d i rectly into your fuel tank.
Make sure to add the correct amount:
8 ounces (235 ml) of additive per
15 gallons (60 ltr) of diesel fuel. If yo u Õre
going to operate your diesel at even low e r
t e m p e ra t u res (B e l ow -22¼F/ - 3 0 ¼ C) ,
i n c rease the amount of Fuel Conditioner to
12 ounces (355 ml) per 15 gallons (60 ltr) of
diesel fuel.

I am not into blind trust

Click to expand...

LOL welcome to 2010.
PS, I use Powerservice.

Bill

GTIDan said:

You keep splitting hairs and sooner or later you'll get the answer YOU want.

Reminds me of tire company statements. They all pretty much make up their own standard.

Click to expand...

I don't have a particular answer I want. Sorry if I was being argumentative. It's an occupational condition, picking things apart. The frustration with this topic is trying to determine the facts from the speculation. For me that includes understanding the question and not just focusing on the answer. So I was trying to get you to elaborate on exactly what you asked the VW rep just to get a sense of how much wiggle room they had in answering. I admit, splitting hairs. IMO your communication with VW is an extremely significant contribution to this whole discussion and I appreciate your sharing the information.

GTIDan said:

So you've had your 2009 how long now? Is the CBEA engine the same as the previous motors? Could it be that the new HPFP is constructed differently from the older ones?
...
What about the 50,000 or so of us who own a 2000/10 TDI who don't buy into the game? Have you contacted a number of dealers and asked them about HPFP failures?
...
Additives sound the same to me as all those drug companies first telling you about a problem you never heard of and than scaring you into asking your Doctor for their product. It's all a con and I'm not buying.

Click to expand...

dan-
i can appreciate your skeptism of 'snake oil' products. And I'm sure there are some still out there. That's why i started this thread asking for additives that have data where they actually claim a wear scar rating. Power Service provided test data that shows they provide sufficient lubricity. Biodiesel is another additive that has proven benefits for lubricity.

As for the CBEA common rail engine, it is not exempt from lubricity issues. Please see the presentation that i linked in post #1. Common rail fuel pump components are shown that have been used with sub-standard fuel. There are also clear statements about common rail engines needing the same protection the earlier designs required.

Also look at slide #12 of the presentation and see the effect of longevity that fuel lubricity has. There's a big difference between ASTM spec fuel and the <400 micron wear scar that Bosch (and other DFIE mfrs) recommend. The point i'm making here is that you probably won't see the benefits of lubricity until somewhere down the line. But i would like to add that i've read of one tank of really bad fuel ruining a pump (Chevron paper).

I also can understand where VWoA is coming from. They have been told by ASTM that 520-560 micron wear scar fuel is adequate. If the owner uses fuel additives, there is a risk that they could overdue it, or somehow mess up the FI system. The point is that it is an uncontrolled process. VWoA is better off hoping that a problem will not show up during the warranty period (pretty good bet, IMO). If a problem does occur, they can point to the fact that the ASTM standard is questionable. So then it turns into a blame game, with the VW owner being the odd man out . As I've posted previously in this thread, I personally use biodiesel (ASTM spec, BTW ) for lubricity, unless I am out of town and it is not available. Biodiesel up to 5% is OK'd by VW in the CBEA engine. Biodiesel at 2% provides more than enough lubricity. If you have access to this, then you are covered both ways.

in any case, good luck.

GTI - I am not trying to be argumentative either. It just makes me scratch my head when I hear members state they do not need additives when every paper out there written by very reputable organizations says that you do! It's like how many times do I bang my head into a wall before I finally get it There are certainly some additives out there that are "snale oil". That Monster Diesel in another thread certainly makes you want to think twice and physically and logically it can't do what it says it will. However, there are several proven additives (and I won't name names) that will do and have done exactly what they promised.

I wish you all the best out there in Southern Cal but still question what it's going to take to get you on to the additive band wagon since study after study after study tell us all that we need something to increase our fuels lubricity. tditom and others has done an excellent job to ensure we are all aware and have access to the studies...it's up to us to stop being bull headed and heed the information for the sake of the longevity of our cars as there is clearly a problem with our fuel and, for all we know, the HPFP issues could be related to something else but our fuel cetainly can't be helping the situation .

As tom said, good luck but if you do have a fuel system issue, you have two people to blame...YOU and VW so put the letter in your safety deposit box so you don't lose it.........but wait, VW will just blame it on something else anyway AFTER you produce your letter so you'll lose either way as several other members have so painfully learned

Here's two snipets of a more recent VW TB than the 2001 in previous posts on fuel additives. It wouldn't surprise me if VW updates this to include the CR. Notice this is a preventitive measure in case fuel isn't properly winterized. I'll bet there are dealers that have recommended this to CR TDI owners.

Enhancing lubricity is also a preventitive measure and as tditom says "Biodiesel at 2% provides more than enough lubricity." Why not use it as its cost is virtually the same as ULSD with potentially large returns. It appears to be the best risk management technique for increasing lubricity and thus decreasing the wear rate of HPFPs.

hopefully VW will update that TSB to include the CBEA engines.

Note that the Bosch presentation i referenced is from 2003 (not '01 ). This was during the time that ASTM was hashing out the lubricity standard, so obviously Bosch and the other DFIE folks were lobbying for the appropriate standard at that time.

Plus 3 Golfer said:

GtiDan, we're not going to see VW or marketers of ULSD recommending additives to ULSD. To do so would undermine their products: VW selling TDIs that potentially fail on ULSD or marketers selling ULSD that potentially fails TDIs. Like VW, you will find Chevron and the likes not recommending additives: "In General, Chevron does not recommend adding after-market additives to diesel fuel". Their lawyers (VW and marketers) simply aren't going to let them recommend anything without specificity (eg. add this product for this specific condition).

Click to expand...

Remember how the electric car was killed? GM has an identity crisis,"how do we sell a vehicle that does not need mechanic maintenance, doesn't need to see the dealership regularly, doesn't need oil changes, saves energy (fuel)?" At the time, SUV's were making a hefty profit for the American companies, if they were to market such a vehicle AGAINST the SUV, it would be counterintuitive no? I'm sure they can work it out now, since the green market has come about, but it's the same with the lubricity additives. Like Plus 3 Golfer says, market super ULSD and just watch VW support it. Till then, it undermines their product. Great response there LP3G.

So, I can buy a premium fuel at one station that has no bio but is at or below the 460 micron w.s.d. rating, OR, I can buy B-2 (made by the same producer) at another station. Which is a smarter choice?

Thanks to all of you for being polite with me regarding my opinion of fuel additives for the 2009/10 TDI.

The fact that some VW approved article circa 2001 does not mean the information is relative to the current model. Lots of things can change (like fuel pump manufacturing) to make the information useless.

My question is am I to believe all of you (well meaning as you seem to be) or VW, a multi billion dollar company who has been producing diesels for the masses longer (I think) than anyone else. Somehow I put my trust in the latter.

Secondly, how many companies that own hundreds of over the road trucks add an additive? My thoughts? None, it would raise their operating costs off the chart. They run hundreds of thousands of miles with no more than average problems.

I asked a contractor today (Ford F250 Diesel) if his company uses any addititives.............seveal trucks........answer, Nope.
So the conversation goes on and in the end you may be right..............or not.

Lastly, I cannot believe that Bosch would put there reputation on the line by knowingly provide VW with a pump that will not stand up to US regulations regarding wear and diesel fuel. It makes no sense to me.

Time will tell I guess.

GTIDan, I don't think any of us are asking you to believe us. My and most others' arguments are based on reports, presentations, data and papers on lubricity as recent as Sept. 2009. You can read all the information and decide for yourself. Again, I hope the HPFPs last at least 250k miles without lubricity additives. But because I'll probably keep the car at least that long, blending B99 with ULSD to make B2 makes sense.

I look at it this way, do I believe the manufacturer of the product (Bosch) or the seller of the product (VW) or the consumer of the product (trucking company or forum members). I said it in another thread that the diesel fuel equipment manufacturers' statement on lubricity is a very strong position to take. They better have data to back it up for such a statement could hurt future sales and revenue of a seller of their product in the US market.

jbright said:

So, I can buy a premium fuel at one station that has no bio but is at or below the 460 micron w.s.d. rating, OR, I can buy B-2 (made by the same producer) at another station. Which is a smarter choice?

Click to expand...

IIRC, DBW stated in another thread that the design life of an HPFP was something like 15,000 hours / 750k miles using fuel with a 400 HFRR wear scar rating. B2 will get you below the 400 micron level and you shouldn't have to worry about fuel dilution of the motor oil at the B2 level. Premium fuel should have a higher cetane rating but unless you are having starting problems the cetane rating of ULSD is fine. Fuel economy should be slightly better with the premium fuel over the B2. So, it probably boils down to price. I'd probably pay a few cents more per gallon maybe up to 10 cents per gallon for the premium fuel over B2.

Plus 3 Golfer said:

GTIDan, I don't think any of us are asking you to believe us. My and most others' arguments are based on reports, presentations, data and papers on lubricity as recent as Sept. 2009. You can read all the information and decide for yourself. Again, I hope the HPFPs last at least 250k miles without lubricity additives. But because I'll probably keep the car at least that long, blending B99 with ULSD to make B2 makes sense.

I look at it this way, do I believe the manufacturer of the product (Bosch) or the seller of the product (VW) or the consumer of the product (trucking company or forum members). I said it in another thread that the diesel fuel equipment manufacturers' statement on lubricity is a very strong position to take. They better have data to back it up for such a statement could hurt future sales and revenue of a seller of their product in the US market.

Click to expand...

I hope the HPFPs last at least 250k miles without lubricity additives.

Good enough for me...........My IS250 (Lexus) is almost four years old and I have only 28 thousand on the clock. I'll be lucky to get much over 100/125 thousand on the Jetta in the next ten/twelve years.

Afterthought:
While the wear standard for ULSF may be 520 as a minimum how do you know the premium brands don't add more additives to bring that number down? You don't and neither do I. For example; most folks agree Chevron gasoline with Techron is pretty good stuff........lots of write ups about Techron. Do we know if this applies to their diesel fuel. I don't.

I don't know if this study contains any relevant information. It's a bit outside my comfort zone, technically speaking. If anyone wants to have a go at it, here's the site:

http://www.crcao.com/reports/recentstudies2009/CRC%20655-DP-1-03/CRC%20655.pdf

jbright said:

I don't know if this study contains any relevant information. It's a bit outside my comfort level technically speaking. If anyone wants to have a go at it, here's the site:

http://www.crcao.com/reports/recentstudies2009/CRC%20655-DP-1-03/CRC%20655.pdf

Click to expand...

last paragraph of the executive summary:

Based on these results, further work would be required before the test system can reliably produce data required to address the project objectives. Additional changes to the test apparatus and procedures are recommended.

Click to expand...

thanks for that document, jbright. too bad the tests had so many problems and the results were inconclusive .

As delivered fuel

After having read through the various threads discussing fuel lubricity and the use of additives, there seemed to me to be insufficient data on some key aspects, including:

-What are the real lubricity characteristics of ULSD as delivered at the fueling station?
-Knowing the ULSD sold already has additives, what concerns are there with vehicle owners adding more additives with respect to the total concentration of additives and compatibility (what sort of chemical soup is one cooking)?

In an effort to obtain factual information I contacted Conoco Phillips since they are a major supplier of diesel where I live. I received a reply not only from them, but also from their additive supplier Innospec. Following is some of the interesting information gleaned from these discussions.

-In addition to lubricity, suppliers find high temperature fuel stability to be a challenge, especially in the high pressure/temperature environment of common rail injection systems. Inadequate stability results in problems with deposits at injector tips, pumps and filters. Innospec’s additives are synthetic which provides enhance high temperature stability.
-HFRR testing variation is notable, typically being in the range of 80 micron. The ASTM D6079 HFRR test standard even states that the variation in independent tests by different operators would exceed approximately 130 micron in only one case in twenty.
-Recognizing this variation, Conoco Phillips targets for 460 rather than the ASTM limit of 520. Testing in the Denver area has shown as delivered values of 413.
-Excessive additive concentrations will cause problems so that the minimum required to meet the goals should be used.
-In addition to the concentration of additives, compatibility between additives can be an issue. For this reason Conoco uses Innospec throughout their process and Innospec regularly tests the as delivered fuel to monitor its characteristics.

This is one fuel supplier and their additive supplier and, while they certainly have their own perspective, it is a perspective based on the business of actually producing the fuel we use in our vehicles.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

For me it increased my confidence in fuel from branded fuels of good reputation. Their lubricity values are typically better than the limits. It also explains that treating ULSD is quite a bit more than just dumping in some additives, it’s an ongoing process of evaluating the fuel being treated and testing to insure the desired results are achieved, something you’re not able to do at the fuel pump.

2009 Jetta TDI DSG

Good info Moto! We don't have these fuel stations where I live so I'll stick to my BP Premium

MotoWPK said:

After having read through the various threads discussing fuel lubricity and the use of additives, there seemed to me to be insufficient data on some key aspects, including:

-What are the real lubricity characteristics of ULSD as delivered at the fueling station?
-Knowing the ULSD sold already has additives, what concerns are there with vehicle owners adding more additives with respect to the total concentration of additives and compatibility (what sort of chemical soup is one cooking)?

In an effort to obtain factual information I contacted Conoco Phillips since they are a major supplier of diesel where I live. I received a reply not only from them, but also from their additive supplier Innospec. Following is some of the interesting information gleaned from these discussions.

-In addition to lubricity, suppliers find high temperature fuel stability to be a challenge, especially in the high pressure/temperature environment of common rail injection systems. Inadequate stability results in problems with deposits at injector tips, pumps and filters. Innospec’s additives are synthetic which provides enhance high temperature stability.
-HFRR testing variation is notable, typically being in the range of 80 micron. The ASTM D6079 HFRR test standard even states that the variation in independent tests by different operators would exceed approximately 130 micron in only one case in twenty.
-Recognizing this variation, Conoco Phillips targets for 460 rather than the ASTM limit of 520. Testing in the Denver area has shown as delivered values of 413.
-Excessive additive concentrations will cause problems so that the minimum required to meet the goals should be used.
-In addition to the concentration of additives, compatibility between additives can be an issue. For this reason Conoco uses Innospec throughout their process and Innospec regularly tests the as delivered fuel to monitor its characteristics.

2009 Jetta TDI DSG

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You are asking the right questions. I would want independent validation of pump fuel lubricity though.

-Excessive additive concentrations will cause problems so that the minimum required to meet the goals should be used.

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That's a nice way of saying additives cost us lots of money, so we will use as little as we can get away with. The problems in engines with using too little are far more severe than too much.

^X2 or X3" MotoWPK

This again supports the uncertainty surrounding the "actual" lubricity of ULSD being sold - HFRR tests results can vary (80 - 130 microns) so Conoco targets 460 which means that some ULSD being sold could be above 520 microns and probably certainly above 460 microns. Remember the lubricity of the actual base ULSD fuel before additives can vary considerable also. It seems to me that if the standard were 460 microns like in Europe instead of 520 microns then the additive package should target to increase lubricity to around 400 microns which IIRC is what Bosch would really like to see.

I don't know how many times I've said this but the best risk management for possible lack of lubricity in ULSD is to use B2 fuel (even B1 will bring the lubricity down to IIRC below 400 microns) since VW says upto B5 is okay. You won't have to worry about the other "stuff" in over the counter additives causing harm to the FIE if you use B2 .

MotoWPK-
thanks for adding to this thread. it sounds like you've found a supplier that understands the importance of meeting the tighter spec and is taking necessary steps. the only thing i would be concerned about is that unless you have something in writing from them, or a publicized document from them making those claims, then you can't rely on them continuing to beat the standard set by ASTM.

a search of the innospec and conoco phillips sites had no references to the other company, indicating that the relationship may be at a local terminal. Innospec claims that their additive can:

...boost lubricity performance to meet
the ASTM or Engine Manufacturers Association
(EMA) standard..​

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so its dependent upon mixing their additive at the correct rate to meet one spec or the other.

i agree with plus3golfer- B2-5 is the way to go if locally available. If not, there are proven additives (see first post of this thread for Power Service test data) that can be used.

tditom said:

MotoWPK-
thanks for adding to this thread. it sounds like you've found a supplier that understands the importance of meeting the tighter spec and is taking necessary steps. the only thing i would be concerned about is that unless you have something in writing from them, or a publicized document from them making those claims, then you can't rely on them continuing to beat the standard set by ASTM.

a search of the innospec and conoco phillips sites had no references to the other company, indicating that the relationship may be at a local terminal. Innospec claims that their additive can:

so its dependent upon mixing their additive at the correct rate to meet one spec or the other.

i agree with plus3golfer- B2-5 is the way to go if locally available. If not, there are proven additives (see first post of this thread for Power Service test data) that can be used.

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Does anyone here on the forum known anyone who has had a problem with Conoco/Phillips fuel? Nope, didn't think so.

Secondly if you look around this forum there are sites that say the 'common rail' motor (2009/10) are designed to run on ULSD only. Enough said. Got an older diesel...............I would use an additive but not with the newer model. JMHO.

I also just finished an email to Chevron asking pretty much the same questions that were addressed here. Hopefully I'll receive a quick replay as well.

The debate will never end anyway.......

GTIDan said:

...
the 'common rail' motor (2003/10) are designed to run on ULSD only.
...

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common-rail is not any more or less dependant on fuel lubricity.

ULSD is necessary for emissions equipment, and the DPF is where sulfur would show up as a problem.

see post #1- there are significant differences between the ULSD here in the states and in Europe. we are discussing the lubricity difference in this thread.